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The Mystery of The False Prophet.

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by MithrandirOlorin888, Sep 21, 2013.

  1. MithrandirOlorin888

    MithrandirOlorin888 Junior Member

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    The False Prophet is a key figure in The Book of Revelation, it's number three villain. "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet." Forming a sort of counterfeit Trinity. He's first clearly introduced as the "beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." After Chapter 13 this figure is called The False Prophet.

    The only reference to either of the Beasts prior to chapter 13 is chapter 11:7 "the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. " Chapter 17:8 makes the beast who " shall ascend out of the bottomless pit" synonymous with the Beast who has 7 heads and 10 horns, and this the first beast of chapter 13. But the symbolism of the Beast is complicated, the 7 headed 10 horned Beats represents the individual of the Antichrist but also his Empire, his political system. Which is the Roman Empire, the Fourth beast of Daniel 7, which is no being rebuilt via the European Union but also via Western politics in the Middle East. The False Prophet as his both religious and economic overseer is part of that system, so you could argue during any section that seems to only have one of them The Beast could be seen as both together.

    We commonly discuss allot of verses outside Revelation that are about The Antichrist. But I don't see any other verses taken to refer to The False Prophet. False Prophets, plural, appear often as do False Christs. "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."-Matthew 24:24.

    Many characters who serve as Foreshadowings or Types of The Antichrist do have a False Prophet figure with them. Adonijah had Abiathar the Priest, Ahab had the unnamed False Prophet who had that dramatic scene with Micaiah. Also if you study the history of Antiochus Epiphanies and the Maccabees, there is Menelaus, the Benjamite Apostate High Priest who presided over the worship of the Abomination of Desolation.

    However, actual specific Prophecies of this figure outside Revelation our not well known. I have seen it suggested that maybe many Prophecies assumed to be about The Antichrist really refer to the False Prophet, or even that some refer to both together in some way. But those suggesting this never seem to elaborate on it.

    Then I noticed this little detail of Isaiah 9, in verses 14&15. "Therefore the LORD will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one day. The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail." The word translated "ancient" really means "elder". So we have a political leader being paired with a lying prophet.

    Small little reference, but once I had noticed this my mind's floodgates burst open, and I started getting all kinds of ideas. They begin with II Thessalonians 2:3. No words are mistranslated here, but it's one of those caissons the translators felt the need to change the order of the words for the sake of English grammar. Which is often needed, but here I would render it this way.
    It appears we have two titles of the Antichrist listed side by side. He had many titles, often more then one used in the same chapter or even same verse, but simply listed in succession is unusual.

    What if it's really referring to the unveiling of two people? The following verses are clearly talking about a single individual man deifying himself in the Temple. But maybe that person is the first mentioned, and the second is his supporter facilitating him in this act? If the Son of Perdition is the False Prophet rather then The Antichrist as assumed, that could be interesting.

    The term "Son of Perdition" is used only twice, the above passage is the second time, the first was John 17:12 where it refers to Judas Iscariot. Because of that many have taught that Judas is the Antichrist. But to me that conflicts with too many other details about his connections to Rome and the Seleucid kingdom and being Assyrian and so on. But those details don't conflict with him being The False Prophet.

    The word translated Perdition is Apoleia. Apollyon from Revelation 9:11 is a related word, derived from the same roots. Apoleia means destruction (perdition is a King James English synonym for Destruction) and Apollyon means Destroyer. It would be accurate poetically to call Apollyon the Son of Apoleia. Acts 1:25 says when Judas died he went "to his own place". What does that mean? Does it mean it's not the same afterlife as normal people (Saved or unsaved) go to? could it be the Abyss?

    There are two Old Testament prophecies cited in the New Testament as referring to Judas, yet when read in their entire context seem much grander then just Judas as we normally think of him. Psalm 109 (in Acts 1:20), and the Idol Shepperd of Zechariah 11 (in Matthew 27:9). Many allege a Bible Contradiction in how this is attributed to Jeremiah, but Zechariah 9-14 is different from the first part of the book, when a date of when he had the vision is recorded at each one's start. It could be he incorporated an early Prophecy of Jeremiah into his work.

    Zechariah 11:17 calls him "the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock", sounds like it could connect to the same terminology as the verse where Yeshua calls Judas the Son of Perdition. "I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

    Psalm 109 actually has three evil personages are in mind, the subject of the Psalm (Who we are told is Judas) and verse 6 says "Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand." Could it be another picture of the counterfeit Trinity?

    In John 6:70 Yeshua refer to Judas as "a Deivl". In the Greek this is Diabolos, any time you see references to people being possessed by "a devil" "devils", or any references to plural "devils" the Greek is Daimon or Daimonian. This is the only time Diabolos refers to anyone other then Satan himself, but in reference to Satan it's always "the Devil" not "a Devil" so this is very unique.

    The other name for Apollyon is Abaddon, his Hebrew name. Most people don't know that this name does appear in the Hebrew Scriptures, it's Strongs number is 11. The KJV always translates it "destruction" but it's not the only word for destruction, so it's important to differentiate. The verses it appears in are Job 26:6, Job 28:22, Job 31:12, Psalm 88:11, Proverbs 15:11, and Proverbs 27:20.

    It's used as the name of a place, not a individual. Being frequently linked with Sheol (Hell/Hades) I take it to be the Old Testament name of the place the New Testament calls the Abyss/Bottomless Pit and Tartaros (Translated Hell in 2 Peter 4). So if the place Judas went was "his own place" perhaps he took it's name?

    Now back to Revelation 13. Some interpret "out of the Earth" as meaning Jewish, while "out of the sea" for the first Beast means Gentile. I'm not sure I understand that logic, but it happens to fit my interpretation here somewhat. (The Antichrist I do not believe will be a Jew, he might have a distant descent from Dan, but that won't be enough to make him a true member of any Tribe.)

    Having "two horns like a lamb" is thought to support the idea of him claiming to be Jesus. The word translated "lamb" here is used 28 times in Revelation, this is the only time it's not in direct reference to Yeshua. But it's not actually a lamb, it's "like a lamb". similar or resembling is what the Greek word here means. So many scholars (even without the intent of connection to any extra Biblical traditions I'll mention latter) have theorized that ti's the second beast not the first who claims to be Jesus himself. Antichrist means a substitute Christ, which can be viewed as distinct from a False Christ though definitely a type of one. The Antichrist claims to be a new savior greater then Jesus, with supposedly the original verifying that.

    If the False Prophet does claim to be the returned Jesus, then him being Judas makes that lie related to the truth. He would be a First Century Judean, who died the exact same day, and was probably about the same age. Today scientists are pretty sure they know what a first century Judean would basically look like, between studying ancient artwork and skulls they've found. There have been specials on TV all about them trying to create on a Computer what Jesus might have looked like. So if someone wants to convince the world he is a specific First Century Judean, it would help to at least have been one of them.

    Next, "and he spake as a dragon" since the dragon in mind here is thought to be The Dragon. Judas is the only person who is ever known to have been indwelt by Satan himself. So he could easily speak with his voice.

    Judas had the ability to perform miracles, just like the False Prophet will do. Matthew 10:1-8, all of the Twelve are listed including Judas. Even tough Judas wasn't really saved he could perform divine miracles, including healing and raising the dead. In this period they'll be Satanic miracles rather then divine as in Matthew 10, but the point is Judas has experience in doing this.

    In 13:13 he can make "fire come down from heaven on the earth". Satan had this ability in Job:12. But Luke 9:51-56 implies this was also in the arsenal of the Twelve, though Yehsua rebuked John and James them for desiring to use it.

    The first Beast has a "Mortal wound" that is healed. We're not explicitly told The False Prophet performs this counterfeit-resurrection, but it is the False Prophet in performs his miracles in general.

    I don't believe the life like behavior of "Image of the Beast", Satan can't truly create life. I believe this is an illusion to modern technology. many see a Robot a Hologram, and that could be part of it. But I also like the 2000 film Revelation's suggestion that it's a sort of Computer program anyone on Earth can plug into. I thin it's directly related to the Mark.

    The Second beast isn't just the religious leader, he's also in charge of the new economy. In verses 16 and 17 we're told he makes everyone get the Mark and requires them to need it to buy or sell. John 12:6 tells us Judas was in charge of the moneybag during Yeshua's ministry, he was the treasurer, so likewise he'll over see the Beast's economic policy for the whole world as well.

    Since The Beast and The False Prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire without any reference to being killed in Revelation 19, at the start of the Millennium, some have argued that they are individuals who where allowed to experience the “Second Resurrection” (the resurrection of the damned) early, rather then at the end of the Millennium. The Beast's Mortal Wound being healed could refer to his resurrection, not being termed as such because it's not a true Resurrection like Yeshua's. But what about The False Prophet's? Perhaps after Judas's soul-spirit (Apollyon) is released from the Abyss, he will then find whatever remains of his body and be resurrected. Remember, after death our bodies return to the dust of the earth from which we where formed. So maybe coming "out of the Earth" mean out of the earth that his body had decomposed into?

    That's the end of my Biblical argument. But there are some extra Biblical connections that are interesting to view in this context.

    I have become very convinced of the theory that the Mahdi of Islamic prophecy was demonically inspired for the Antichrist to claim that title. Now part of that theory tends to be that Isa (Islam's counterfeit Jesus) is the False Prophet. It being Isa who resurrects the Mahdi fits that well.

    Also extra Biblical modern Rabbinic Jewish tradition has created the Messiah Ben-Ephraim, who will be a leader of Israel, but be killed by Armilus and then resurrected by Messiah Ben-David.

    Now I return again to the subject of the name Apollyon. Apollyon was an ancient Homeric alternative name for the Greek god Apollo. It's used for example in Aeschylus's play Agamemnon, where Cassandra says repeatedly. "Apollo, thou destroyer, O Apollo, Lord of fair streets, Apollyon to me.". Virgil's fourth Eclogue records a pagan prophecy attributed to the Cumaean Sibyl. Which foretells a new "Golden Age' brought about by Apollo, but Saturn is in view too.

    Now I know full well that at the time this was written Virgil intended it to refer to Augustus, that this new Golden Age was supposed to be Augustus's Pax Romana. But remember, among other things that the Little Horn's kingdom will be a revived Roman Empire, I think he will present his peace plan as a new Pax Romana.

    When Rome began being Christianized (or more accurately Christianity began being Romanized) which started even before Constantine, it became popular to reinterpret this as a prophecy of the Nativity of Christ, being made at very near the same time. Constantine, the first Christian emperor, in his first address to the assembly, interpreted the whole of The Eclogues as a reference to the coming of Christ, and quoted a long passage of the Sibylline Oracles (Book 8) containing an acrostic in which the initials from a series of verses read: "Jesus Christ Son of God Saviour Cross". The books refereed to as the "Sibylline Oracles" are actually Jewish and Christian (often Gnostic), Apocrypha drawing on the Sibyl traditions of Greeco-Roman paganism.

    That's why Michelangelo prominently featured the Cumaean Sibyl in the Sistine Chapel among the Old Testament prophets, as had earlier works such as the Tree of Jesse miniature in the Ingeberg Psalter. And why Dante Alighieri chose Virgil as his guide in The Divine Comedy (Dante's Inferno). So Catholic Christianity (and other apostate churches) have long embraced identifying Apollo with Jesus via this prophecy.

    The Greeks also identified Apollo with the Egyptian Horus, who came after the dieing and rising god Osiris.

    Looks like allot of groundwork for a great deception has been laid.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
  2. Douggg

    Douggg your friend

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    Hi M8, the reason the second beast in Revelation 13 is not the one which ascends out of the bottomless pit is because the first beast in Revelation 13 is the one which has the 7 heads and 10 horns.

    In Revelation 17, the beast that has the 7 heads and 10 horns is the one that will ascend out of the bottomless pit.

    Doug
     
  3. MithrandirOlorin888

    MithrandirOlorin888 Junior Member

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    I'd forgotten that phrase is in 17 as well.

    I've found another person with the same theory, might be more thought out, I out this together starting only yesterday.

    I can't post links yet, the key additional detail is they think there are 2 sons of Perdition.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
  4. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

    That's right.

    The beast which comes up out of the earth (Revelation 13:11-16) represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a (secretly apostate) pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What's more important than this?"

    He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the 7 horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding 7 positions of power at the same time (cf. Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say that he is Jesus. (But he won't say that he's Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

    Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

    ~

    If a (secretly apostate) pope does become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), adherents of Catholicism will have to decide what their ultimate source of truth is: Is it the pope and the RCC, or God and the Bible? Many adherents of Catholicism who know God and the Bible well and hold to them as their ultimate source of truth will no doubt be utterly aghast at the false doctrines of a False Prophet pope. Such adherents of Catholicism could demand that he be removed for heresy and apostasy, and that the cardinals elect a new pope. But other adherents of Catholicism, including many cardinals, bishops, and priests, could be deceived (along with most of the rest of the world) into believing the False Prophet pope's false doctrines because of his ability to perform the most amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13-14,Revelation 19:20; cf. Matthew 24:24).

    And so a great schism could arise within the RCC. Compare the Akita prophecy: "The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops". Many adherents of Catholicism could follow the False Prophet pope, while other adherents of Catholicism could reject him and eventually even elect their own, new pope, who they could declare to be the "True pope". But this new, "True pope" could then be murdered, along with many of his followers, by the False Prophet pope's soldiers. Compare the Third Secret of Fatima: "he [the pope] was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions". Could the soldiers firing "arrows" be the Vatican's Swiss guards, whose weapons and colorful uniforms hark back to the Middle Ages?

    After this slaughter, the False Prophet pope could manage to retain the papacy and full control of the Vatican, and through his (deceived) cardinals, bishops, and priests, retain full control of all RCC cathedrals, parishes, churches, etc., throughout the world. And when the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) obtains power over all nations, he and the False Prophet will make war against true, Biblical Christians (whether they're adherents of Catholicism or not) throughout the world, and will physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It's only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the true church (which consists of all true believers, whether they're adherents of Catholicism or not: Ephesians 4:4-6) that the future tribulation will end (Daniel 12:7b) and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). At his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43), for he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).
     
  5. Time Watcher

    Time Watcher Guest

    Hint:

    Satan's false prophet [beast] which he uses to support the first beast who is Abaddon is also a fallen angel alike

    Satan will try to mimic the Lord's make up, by using his diabolical triad

    Abaddon will fully possess the human little horn of Daniel's visions to the extent of an incarnation .... full blown angel/human combo ..... strange? .... yes

    Do you see what Satan is doing here? Satan is "god" and Abaddon is his "son" of perdition ... god the father ... god the son

    Abaddon in the human little horn will rule with 10 other human kings [horns]

    The human little horn is not defined as such in Revelation .... he has become the beast .... who is Abaddon .... Satan's "antichrist"

    Satan then brings in another fallen angel .... his false prophet [not named in scripture]

    This false prophet looks like a lamb, but speaks like a dragon [like his mentor who is Satan the "chief of the fallen ones]

    This character also is associated with two horns just as Abaddon with 10

    The angelic false prophet mimics the Lord's holy spirit and does this thru two human manifestations just as Abaddon will do the same thru the eleven .... the little horn plus 10 others

    All of this seems very strange and complex to the natural mind, but the setup is Satan's way of design to mimic the Lord .... more of a twisted "kick in the face" against the One he hates and attempts to usurp

    The little horn and the other 10 is a fairly easy concept to understand, but this "false prophet" is more enigmatic .... until one can see what Satan is up to

    Those on the earth will see the human little horn supported by 10 political horns and by 2 human religious clerics who will lead Abaddon's cult religion [my speculation would be 2 Muslim clerics one of the Shia, and the other of the Sunni dividing who will unite the same .... or something like it, but I can only speculate this detail]

    All 3 [the human little horn and the 2 human religious horns possessed and controlled by the 2 fallen angels Abaddon and the false prophet sent by Satan the puppet master who desires to "God"

    These diabolical characters will astound the world with their supernatural demonstrations of angelic powers far beyond the capabilities of any human invention .... a first never before experience by humans

    This setting will be like none other in all of human history .... and the Lord will allow it because the world has refused to believe the truth about Him with no excuse [something like the predeluvian world, but different]

    So He will give them the devil 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12; Revelation 12:12]

    The controversy between the Lord and Satan will be played out upon the earth in the open along with His unmitigated judgment of a lost world of humanity at the same time during His coming hour of trial
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2013
  6. MithrandirOlorin888

    MithrandirOlorin888 Junior Member

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    Abaddon is called an Angel, but Angel is just a Greek word that means messenger.
     
  7. dfw69

    dfw69 Senior Veteran

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    I agree and this angel will influence the world by helping the final false messiah (the final antichrist) and his false prophet ( false Elijah ) IMO
     
  8. Douggg

    Douggg your friend

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    The word means messenger, but we are also told that Abaddon is a king over the tormenting locust. I personally do not believe that Abaddon is the beast in the bottomless pit, though.

    Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
     
  9. MithrandirOlorin888

    MithrandirOlorin888 Junior Member

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    The etymology connection between Apoleia and Apollyon I don't believe is a coincidence.
     
  10. dfw69

    dfw69 Senior Veteran

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    I would not want to be here on earth when he shows up that's for sure
     
  11. MithrandirOlorin888

    MithrandirOlorin888 Junior Member

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    We will be, Paul explicitly says the Rapture won't happen until after the Abomination fo Desolation, no matter what you think the "Restrainer" is it can't contradict that. So the pre-Trib rapture fails.
     
  12. Douggg

    Douggg your friend

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    I am "anytime rapture" view, which considers that the rapture can happen anytime between now and when it does. The rapture may take place pre-trib or it may-not.

    The "anytime rapture" view (as I call it) is different from the various "x-trib" views. The various "x-trib" views all mandate that the rapture must take place at a certain point relevant to the tribulation.

    Regarding pre-trib, it is actually more accurate to call it "pre-70th week".

    The "anytime rapture" view is based on just three verses - Luke 21:34-36.
    With the caveat that it applies to the parable of the fig tree generation.


    Doug
     
  13. MithrandirOlorin888

    MithrandirOlorin888 Junior Member

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    That contradicts scripture, Paul's clearly says certain events much happen first. Luke 21 is NOT the same Prophecy as Matthew 24's Olivte Discourse, Luke 21 is focused on 70 A.D.

    I've updated the OP.
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg your friend

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    I agree that Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are not the same conversation as they take place at different locations. But Luke 21:34-36 is certainly pertinent to the rapture.

    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


    I held the pre-trib view for a long time, and actually still look for the ratpure to take place between now and when it does. Which may indeed be pre-trib. But I do see the possibility that the rapture could happen at some other time than pre-trib.


    Your response to me is what I expect because most people are wired in with strong feelings that they are right about understanding of the various scriptures that support their particular view. You are launching into a defense of your view. Reasonable, knee jerk reaction.



    A better alternative is to be ready for the rapture, even if we are potentially wrong about the timing must take place as defined by the various "x-trib" views. For that reason, I came up with the "anytime rapture" view as a surefire way to be right without getting into all the heated debates. The "anytime rapture" view is focused on "watching" and "praying always to be accounted worthy" to escape all the things to stand before the Son of Man. Anytime between now and when it actually takes place.


    The key is focusing on the objective, not on being right whether pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath.


    Doug
     
  15. coraline

    coraline New Member

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    Yes it is brother.

    In Matthew 24:15, Jesus spoke of the Abomination of Desolation in Daniel. This is when the Romans surrounded the city. Jesus tells his disciples to flee the city & or don't enter it. He means Jerusalem. The Christians (primarily Jesus spoke to Hebrews ) They heeded His warning in history too.

    Luke 21:20-22, Luke is speaking about the same event. (writing mostly for Gentile believers though)

    The great distress upon "this people" shows Luke is referring to the Jews.
     
  16. Douggg

    Douggg your friend

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    Hi coraline, in both Matthew 24 and Luke 21, beginning at the time of the apostles - there were near term prophecies, intermediate term prophecies, and end times prophecies. It is a progression. Which is a common occurrence in the bible, like the progression of the Antichrist's career, going through 4 stages. And the plagues and judgments in Revelation, which get progressively getting worse.

    Doug
     
  17. coraline

    coraline New Member

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    I agree. The apostles said they were living in the end times. :)
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg your friend

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    Well, they certainly had that mind set that they were living in the last days.

    But with 20/20 hindsight, 2000 years later, we know that they were not. So why was it that they should have known that they weren't?

    We have to start with that understanding any of the bible has to come from God opening our understanding.

    After the crucifixion, Jesus appeared to the the disciples and he opened the understanding of the scriptures regarding him and salvation to them. With that understanding they went out and preached the gospel of salvation to the world. That's in Luke 24:44-48.

    However, concerning the events surrounding his return in the scriptures, which would include the old testament end times prophecies - it was not for them to know that time. That's in Acts 1 his last words to them as he ascended to heaven.


    So in the New Testament, in the letters by the apostles we really don't get a detailed account of how all the end time prophecies of the old testament and those in the four gospels fit together. Like we do about Jesus being the Savior from our sins and the gospel of Salvation. The understanding of the end times was sealed back then, not until our day when travel and education is vastly increased (Daniel 12).

    The apostles lived with the hope of Jesus returning in their day, but they didn't know for sure. And example of that hope, Peter took Psalms 2, which is not about his day, but the end times, and applied it to the religious leaders of his day. In Acts 4.

    The part in blue is from Pslams 2. But Pslams 2 is about the armies of the world gathering at Armageddon to try and stop Jesus at his return in Revelation 16. But Revelation hadn't been given at the time of Acts4, and the understanding was closed to Peter. So he applied Pslams 2 to the religious leaders of his day.


    Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
    24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
    25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
    26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.


    Here is what Pslams 2 says and what Revelation 16 says. It is clearly not talking about the religious leaders back in Peter's day.




    coraline, I used that example with Peter to show that the apostles' hearts were in the right place, and they were hoping for Jesus to return in their day; so they lived in that expectation. They considered that they were living in the last days. And it comes out in some of the statements they made in their letters. But the end times, putting everything together was not made understood to them - like in our day.


    Doug


     
  19. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

    When Jesus says "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" (Luke 21:20), he's referring to the first part of Daniel 11:31: "And arms shall stand on his part". And when Jesus says "the desolation" in Luke 21:20, he's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31, just as in Matthew 24:15, he's referring to the "abomination of desolation" part of Daniel 11:31.

    So Luke 21:20-23 isn't referring to 70 AD, nor to the pillaging of Jerusalem which will occur at the very end of the future tribulation, right before Jesus' 2nd coming to save Jerusalem (Zechariah 14), but is referring to what will happen mid-tribulation, when the Antichrist will antitypically fulfill Daniel 11:31 at the start of his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), during which 3.5 years, Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles (Revelation 11:2b), which future treading down is what Luke 21:24 is referring to.

    ~

    Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation "stand" "in" the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after "they" have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will "pollute" the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

    The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

    Don't you mean to flee "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16)? Also, note that this doesn't have to mean first century Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

    The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

    Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

    And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).
     
  20. Time Watcher

    Time Watcher Guest

    The "fleeing" of the prophet scriptures has never taken place .... yet

    [Matthew 24:15-16, Zechariah 14:4-5, and Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

    This is a future event and did not take place in the first century

    The Lord and His prophets are always congruent

    In this case the setting is about a re-gathered remnant part of Israel during the coming time of Jacob's trouble [Jeremiah 30]

    Both of you who talk about a "fleeing" in 70 AD need to defend your view .... it is false

    Explain Jeremiah 30 away for me .... I want to see how you do this

    Your story sounds like the preterist who would totally agree with you
     
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