The Mystery of Pauls Writings

[visionary]

Bible admonishes to drink in moderation.

1 Timothy 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.
1 Timothy 5:23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)
Ephesians 5:18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

Bible also admonishes that you need to be aware of other's faith and understanding and take it into consideration. We do not want to cause out brother to stumble nor be unable to spiritual discern what is going on around us.

Romans 14:21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Proverbs 23:29-35 Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaining? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who tarry long over wine; those who go to try mixed wine. Do not look at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly. In the end it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder. Your eyes will see strange things, and your heart utter perverse things. ...
Proverbs 23:20-21 Be not among drunkards or among gluttonous eaters of meat, for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, and slumber will clothe them with rags.
Psalm 104:14-15 You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man's heart.
Titus 2:3 Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,
Genesis 27:28 May God give you of the dew of heaven and of the fatness of the earth and plenty of grain and wine.
Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.

Bible also says that for some people that is all they have.. so leave them drink.
Proverbs 31:6-7 Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.

Yeshua is our Melchizedek priest.
Genesis 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (He was priest of God Most High.)

 

[Hoghead1]

Bible admonishes to drink in moderation.

Yeah, I think that's pretty much right on.

 

[BukiRob]

What does this have to do with my comments on alcohol?

If you bother to re-read your comment you'll see.

 

[Hoghead1]

If you bother to re-read your comment you'll see.

Once I have said it, I'm done with it. I do no looking back.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

Romans 3:21ff

21But now apart from the norm, the justice of the Almĭghty is made visible, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22that is, the justice of the Almĭghty, through the faithfulness of Yĕshūa, the Mĕssiah, unto all those confirming their faithfulness, because there is no distinction, 23because all have sinned and are falling short of the glory of the Almĭghty, 24having justice administered without deserving it, by his lovingkindness through the redemption which is in Mĕssiah Yĕshūa, 25whom the Almĭghty set forth as a wiping away through faithfulness, by his blood, to show his justice, because he overlooked the iniquities that occurred previously, 26according to the mercy of the Almĭghty, for a demonstration of his justice in the present time, that he should be just and the oneadministering justice, which is from the faithfulness of Yĕshūa.

http://www.torahtimes.org/translation/romans/book.html#3:21

 

[BukiRob]

Once I have said it, I'm done with it. I do no looking back.

I see so you enjoy persisting in error... got it.

 

[FredVB]

Nope wrong... you are not free from the law... you are free from the law of "sin and death." You are NOT free from the Torah.
Torah is wisdom, LIFE, TRUTH they way in which we should go. It is a lamp unto our feet(LIGHT) Honor, length of days....
Paul says that it is HOLY and Good.... So please explain to me how it is that a believer does not want that which is HOLY and Good? That which produces WISDOM and discretion. Bestows HONOR and is TRUTH. That which is a lamp to our feet directing us in the way we should go??????

In Christ, the Messiah, we are free from the real justice with judgment from the law, but the commandments are right and we are to be freed from sin's hold, not free to go contrary to them.

 

[BukiRob]

In Christ, the Messiah, we are free from the real justice with judgment from the law, but the commandments are right and we are to be freed from sin's hold, not free to go contrary to them.

Which is being freed from the LAW of "SIN AND DEATH" Which is NOT the same as being freed from the Torah/Law/Instruction (the better english definition interpreted as law)

This is a central issue that the believer MUST come to terms with. G-d makes it clear that "doing right in our own eyes" is EVIL. This goes all the way back to the garden. The eating of the fruit of the tree of good and evil was open REBELLION. It was a declaration that I, not G-d could determine what was good and what was evil.

The purpose of the Torah is to teach us HOW to do GOOD as G-d defines it. When we reject that we are essentially saying that Adam and Eve were right that I, not G-d can determine what is good and what is evil. Since that is so brash what has happened is a twisted, distorted and perverted teaching based on Paul's letters has convinced most of Christianity that the Statues, decree's, commandments and laws of YWHY have been set aside as a result of Messiah's death and Resurrection. This is utterly untrue. Messiah took OUR PLACE and paid IN FULL, the debt owed to the law. It in no way nullifies it and it certainly does not eliminate the fact that the Law (INSTRUCTION) exists to show us HOW to walk in a manner that is doing what G-d calls good. HOW to love G-d and HOW to love our neighbor as ourselves.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

In Christ, the Messiah, we are free from the real justice with judgment from the law, but the commandments are right and we are to be freed from sin's hold, not free to go contrary to them.

Right on target

 

[pinacled]

Yes! I was watching a documentary on bubbles of all things the other day. It is interesting to say the least how something as simple as a bubble is such a big thing when seen from the prospective of movement, gravity, pressure etc.

I remember them showing a water drop falling into a still water surface, first it pushes down on the surface as a whole, pushing up the sides of the surface, the bottom being wider than the top.

It got me to thinking that this model below may not be too far off. Not really 'flat' like a plain, but more in tune with what is described in the creation story of Gen 1 and 2.
If you'll notice there is a concave and convex part thus could explain the 'disappearing over the horizon'

That is from the 1800's
It would not support the idea of flat meaning something like this:

Now look at this one.

That is from Rob Skiva's rendition. After he did this computer generated model someone sent him that photo of a foot stool. He was amazed at the similarity.

What if the 'curvature of the earth' we perceive is not the earth being curved as it is the result of the dome?

I have been looking into this presentation for a while. the Geometry is inspiring. I could visualize how 3 dimensional space could be stretched into a plane.

 

[visionary]

Then you throw in the heavens rolling up like a scroll... and it gives the impression, we are nothing but a divine plan still on the drawing board.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Right on target

Can I just shake my head at this treatment of the Greek?

 

[Daniel Gregg]

Can I just shake my head at this treatment of the Greek?

There are many people who know Greek, but will never admit the truth for non-intellectual reasons. Whoever leans on you gets a biased source.

 

[yonah_mishael]

There are many people who know Greek, but will never admit the truth for non-intellectual reasons. Whoever leans on you gets a biased source.

I hope you don't mean to suggest that what you wrote above was "the truth."

 

[Daniel Gregg]

I hope you don't mean to suggest that what you wrote above was "the truth."

nomos = what is customary, the norm BDAG 3rd ed. It was the truth. And Messiah is the truth whom you deny.

 

[yonah_mishael]

nomos = what is customary, the norm BDAG 3rd ed. It was the truth. And Messiah is the truth whom you deny.

By the time of the writing of the NT, νόμος did not normally mean "custom." It was normal to use a pluperfect verb to say that something was customary (εἰώθει), and this verb (ἔθω) is directly related to the word ἔθος, which was the neuter noun meaning "custom" in the NT. Consider Luke 1:19, that says it was κατὰ τὸ ἔθος τῆς ἱερατείας that they would divide up shifts by lot among those who would need to burn offerings in the temple. It is absurd to claim that νόμος means "custom" in all instances or to simply pick and choose where to translate it that way. It clearly refers to the Torah (תורה) in many instances and to other laws in other instances. The normal meaning (not the etymology) of the term is "law," not "custom." Your statement about my personal beliefs is off-topic and ad hominem. We're talking about the Greek language, not about my beliefs, which have no bearing on how I understand the text.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

By the time of the writing of the NT

....translation: the temporal context makes "what is customary" (the norm) improbable in usage. I see you are educated enough not to make the mistake of saying impossible. Custom, tradition, per se is better expressed by other terms as you say. But that is not the sense of nomos "what is customary" is getting at. A fully statutory law can be the customary law or the one normally applied by a judge to a situation. As we say in English "the rule" as opposed to an equally valid exception. Nomos is closely tied to law, i.e. norm, standard. Paul has excellent didactic reasons for switching out this sense of nomos with Law. A word meaning purely custom or worse tradition is not as effective since it suggests too much what is invalid.

Since you appealed to context of a broader scope, I will appeal to the context of the specific scope:


"Apart from the norm the justice of God is revealed....." If you put LAW here then Paul would contradict Torah, because the justice of atonement is revealed in the Law. Put "rule" if you like so then Paul is talking exception. So the context is decisive. Paul makes no sense without nomos meaning what is customary or the norm. The explanatory power is multiplied over many text.

It is absurd to claim that νόμος means "custom" in all instances

...a straw man.

or to simply pick and choose where to translate it that way.

....by no means is it so arbitrary. The context decides and makes plain sense when it does.



Messiah is the end of the norm for justice.... Rom 10:4

But the cross is foolishness to those who reject Messiah.

We're talking about the Greek language, not about my beliefs, which have no bearing on how I understand the text.

For whatever reasons you turned you back on Messiah, still deep down you defend those ideas at an emotional level. You can't help being biased.

 

[yonah_mishael]

The context decides and makes plain sense when it does.

No, the context is glaring that χωρὶς νόμου means "apart from the Law (Torah)." Righteousness until that time was considered to come from observance of the Torah's precepts. Paul is saying that God brought about a righteousness that had nothing to do with keeping the Torah - because it came about through the blood of Jesus.

For whatever reasons you turned you back on Messiah, still deep down you defend those ideas at an emotional level. You can't help being biased.

I will legitimize this with a response. I can certainly read and understand what the NT says without believing it. I am able to read and understand Greek myth without buying into the claim that it's true.

 

[Daniel Gregg]

Righteousness until that time was considered to come from observance of the Torah's precepts.

It still does, or rather Torah is the measuring stick by which real righteousness can be identified. Paul was not speaking of an alien righteousness. The word means JUSTICE. The justice of God is revealed apart from the norm in Messiah. That justice is testified to in the law and the prophets (atonement in General. Isaiah 53). The justice here is atonement vs. the ordinary justice of the offender paying the price. The sole reason the Church invented an alien righteousness in their doctrine of imputation was to justify their view of Christ's atonement based on perfect equity or exchange of value. I reject this theory of atonement.

http://www.torahtimes.org/writings/atonement/article.html

One chief argument that Jews make to justify rejecting the NT is that the NT rejects Torah, particularly Paul. It is therefore self serving to adopt that interpretation of Paul when it is not necessary. I think possibly you defend the Church's anti-law interpretation of Paul because that is one of the justifications for your ultimately being where you are at now.

 

[yonah_mishael]

It still does, or rather Torah is the measuring stick by which real righteousness can be identified. Paul was not speaking of an alien righteousness. The word means JUSTICE. The justice of God is revealed apart from the norm in Messiah. That justice is testified to in the law and the prophets (atonement in General. Isaiah 53). The justice here is atonement vs. the ordinary justice of the offender paying the price. The sole reason the Church invented an alien righteousness in their doctrine of imputation was to justify their view of Christ's atonement based on perfect equity or exchange of value. I reject this theory of atonement.

http://www.torahtimes.org/writings/atonement/article.html

One chief argument that Jews make to justify rejecting the NT is that the NT rejects Torah, particularly Paul. It is therefore self serving to adopt that interpretation of Paul when it is not necessary. I think possibly you defend the Church's anti-law interpretation of Paul because that is one of the justifications for your ultimately being where you are at now.

The word ἡ δικαιοσύνη the abstract concept of "what is just or right." It should be distinguished from ἡ δίκη "justice" (what is meeted out) [ἄγειν τινὰ εἰς τὴν δίκην (or εἰς δικαστήριον) "to bring someone to justice"] and τὸ δίκαιον "what is right" [ποιῆσαι τὸ δίκαιον "to do what is right"] though it sometimes takes on both of these meanings in particular usage [ποιῆσαι τὴν δικαιοσύνην "to do what is right"]. The verb δικαιοῦμαι means "to be declared just or right" or "to be considered just or right." In legal terms, it has to do with the person who wins the case, who is declared to be "in the right" when making his claim. In religious terms, it means that someone is decided to be in right standing with God. A person who is declared δίκαιος is the opposite of someone who is declared ἄδικος "unjust" or "who does what is wrong."

The New Testament shows that God planned to apportion to mankind a right-standing through the sacrifice of Jesus quite apart from their own ability to earn it, since Paul says that all of our good deeds are like filthy rags before God, and righteous ("the state of being declared 'in the right'") could only be attained by faith in the deeds of Jesus and not in the deeds that you could perform on your own. In that sense, it is free from your ability to perform mitzvot in order to be declared "just." It is "separate from (the observance of) law" (χωρὶς νόμου). This is Pauline theology.

Romans 3:21
νυνὶ δὲ χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνη Θεοῦ πεφανέρωται...
But now, separate from the law, the righteousness of God has been made manifest...​