The Mystery of Pauls Writings

[pat34lee]

I think you misunderstood me. I do not link salvation with keeping the Law. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I do not feel obligated to the law, only to Christ. However if I follow Christ the Law will be in its place for Christ was lawful: in him was no sin.

You list your status as married. Do you care about your wife
and do your best to be a loving husband? If so, why? Because
Paul said so? Or because you love her?

Yahweh gave us the Torah to tell us what he wants before he
sent us his son. Why would we discard any of his instructions
if we want to please him?

If Yahweh never changes, then what he desires and what he
hates don't change. So Proverbs 6:16-19 is just as applicable
today as 1 John 3:4-5.

16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

 

[BukiRob]

I had to wonder how you read that in there, so I read it again.

I find it interesting that you find James so easy to understand and Paul so hard and it makes me wonder if you do.

I think whatever we read is going to be open to interpretation. Don't tell me the Jews didn't interpret things differently. Just go to Jesus' time and see the factions.

I do not believe the Law to be evil and I remember Paul saying just that. Was it not that Paul was testifying the the Law, as good as it was, had not helped him like Jesus did? I understand the dealing of the Law through the sacrificial and substitutional death of Jesus Christ. I am free from the Law because Christ has paid the price, but I am not free to sin, only free of it. I actually came to understand this by the Law and the sacrifices. Without them I could hardly prove what I already knew. He has paid it all.

Nope wrong... you are not free from the law... you are free from the law of "sin and death." You are NOT free from the Torah.

Torah is wisdom, LIFE, TRUTH they way in which we should go. It is a lamp unto our feet(LIGHT) Honor, length of days....

Paul says that it is HOLY and Good.... So please explain to me how it is that a believer does not want that which is HOLY and Good? That which produces WISDOM and discretion. Bestows HONOR and is TRUTH. That which is a lamp to our feet directing us in the way we should go??????

 

[BukiRob]

I was just answering the quotation that I associate the Law with salvation. I do not. You just said the same thing I said, so let me clarify for you. I follow Christ. Christ was lawful by nature and I exemplify that nature. If I do this I too become lawful. When I say I do not feel obligated to the law I am saying that I am not bound to the letter of it for my salvation. If I have truly put on Christ I will be law abiding because he is law abiding. Sin is more than just a casual observance of the TEN, that is why Jesus spoke of the law of love: the two greatest commandments on which hinge the whole law. In fact I think it was a Jewish person who pointed out that neither of those are in the Ten as you call it. My obligation is to Christ.

And if it is you will walk as He walked. How did he walk? He was faithfully observant to the Torah(law)

You're kind of missing the entire point Yeshua was making about the 2 greatest commandments. The Torah shows HOW you are to fulfill those 2. If its left up to you or me in HOW you fulfill those two then you are merely doing right in your own eyes.

Actually what he said was that the entirety of the Law and Prophets are founded on the 2 commandments. The Ten are all about broad nature of loving G-d and your neighbor as yourself. The Torah shows us HOW we are to do these things.

The older I get the longer I walk with G-d the more I see just how important the OT really is. You simply CAN NOT understand the NT in its fullness if you do not have a firm grasp on the OT. If you ignore the OT you will have a warped understanding of the new.

 

[Llewelyn]

And if it is you will walk as He walked. How did he walk? He was faithfully observant to the Torah(law)

You're kind of missing the entire point Yeshua was making about the 2 greatest commandments. The Torah shows HOW you are to fulfill those 2. If its left up to you or me in HOW you fulfill those two then you are merely doing right in your own eyes.

Actually what he said was that the entirety of the Law and Prophets are founded on the 2 commandments. The Ten are all about broad nature of loving G-d and your neighbor as yourself. The Torah shows us HOW we are to do these things.

The older I get the longer I walk with G-d the more I see just how important the OT really is. You simply CAN NOT understand the NT in its fullness if you do not have a firm grasp on the OT. If you ignore the OT you will have a warped understanding of the new.

Ah, ok. Since I do not ignore OT we have no quarrel. One of my favourite passages of Scripture is Psalm 1 because God spoke to me by it. I truly believe you have no understanding of the NT if you do not consider it by the revelation of the OT.

 

[Llewelyn]

Nope wrong... you are not free from the law... you are free from the law of "sin and death." You are NOT free from the Torah.

Torah is wisdom, LIFE, TRUTH they way in which we should go. It is a lamp unto our feet(LIGHT) Honor, length of days....

Paul says that it is HOLY and Good.... So please explain to me how it is that a believer does not want that which is HOLY and Good? That which produces WISDOM and discretion. Bestows HONOR and is TRUTH. That which is a lamp to our feet directing us in the way we should go??????

lol. I do not know how it is that a believer does not want that which is holy and good. I do not despise the Law, I look into it for it teaches me justice, but I do not look to the Law for justification. Personally I love the Law for it is good and beneficial in so many ways. I do not see the Law as merely the big 10 as so many put it. These are good but they are incomplete without the rest of the Law and the prophets. I am a believer and I believe that God is God from beginning to end: from Genesis to Revelation. I do not despise one book although I will admit I find the Song of Solomon hard to read, and mostly don't though I am guided there from time to time in my studies.

So my meaning of "I am not obligated to the Law" is this: I do not look to the Law for justification. Christ is enough. Because of Christ the Law has become my nature: it is what I do. With regards to circumcision; circumcision defined a Jew, whereas faith defines those who are born of God. Faith is my circumcision and Jesus Christ is my Sabbath. I do not profane Christ by trying to work out my salvation by keeping the Law. If we sin, if we confess our sin he is faithful and just to forgive our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:9. I want his word in my heart and not merely before my eyes or in my head. Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. And, yes, that includes the whole book.

 

[Llewelyn]

You list your status as married. Do you care about your wife
and do your best to be a loving husband? If so, why? Because
Paul said so? Or because you love her?

Yahweh gave us the Torah to tell us what he wants before he
sent us his son. Why would we discard any of his instructions
if we want to please him?

If Yahweh never changes, then what he desires and what he
hates don't change. So Proverbs 6:16-19 is just as applicable
today as 1 John 3:4-5.

16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

I do not need a set of instructions to love my wife. I loved my wife from the beginning, without Paul's writings and this may come as a surprise to you but I only married my wife on the condition that it pleased God. I asked him for permission to marry her.

You may need to answer this, who was the Torah given to? Was it not given to Moses and the children of Israel? Yes, it was, but not to the whole world. Therefore the Torah is for the Jew. I am a gentile, what does it have to do with me? I regard the Torah only because I love God and consider it his word. If the Torah was not given to me, how can I now be obligated to it? But I consider it because I see in it the nature of God and of Christ. Since my goal is to be like Christ I do those things found in the Torah. The Seed of God is in me. I do not despise the Jew or the OT.

2ndly, when I go to Deuteronomy 28 I find that the blessings of the Law are for this life and this world: you may store up great treasures in this world by keeping the Law. Jesus said, do not store up treasure in this world, but the next: heaven. If I am not looking for this world's treasures, what obligation do I have to the Law?

You have answered it for yourself. Christ was manifest to take away my sin. Since he has taken it away, how can I do it for it is no longer in me? Now I can go to the Law to discover what sin is or the Holy Spirit can reveal it to me.

I will ponder this, where in the Law does it tell me not to consume alcohol? Yet the Holy Spirit has told me and many others not to consume alcohol; to refrain from it like the sin of fornication. I do not go to the Law to find excuse, as so many do, to disobey God because I want to please him and not men.

 

[BukiRob]

lol. I do not know how it is that a believer does not want that which is holy and good. I do not despise the Law, I look into it for it teaches me justice, but I do not look to the Law for justification. Personally I love the Law for it is good and beneficial in so many ways. I do not see the Law as merely the big 10 as so many put it. These are good but they are incomplete without the rest of the Law and the prophets. I am a believer and I believe that God is God from beginning to end: from Genesis to Revelation. I do not despise one book although I will admit I find the Song of Solomon hard to read, and mostly don't though I am guided there from time to time in my studies.

So my meaning of "I am not obligated to the Law" is this: I do not look to the Law for justification. Christ is enough. Because of Christ the Law has become my nature: it is what I do. With regards to circumcision; circumcision defined a Jew, whereas faith defines those who are born of God. Faith is my circumcision and Jesus Christ is my Sabbath. I do not profane Christ by trying to work out my salvation by keeping the Law. If we sin, if we confess our sin he is faithful and just to forgive our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:9. I want his word in my heart and not merely before my eyes or in my head. Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. And, yes, that includes the whole book.

Justification come by Messiah. Sanctification comes by walking in the Light (Torah)

You cite 1John and it is good that you do but John talks about walking has HE walked.... HOW DID HE WALK? Blameless before the Torah.

The issue I have with many who desperately cling to the "grace only" teaching is that it Ignores Messiah's own words and the example set by the apostles.

James tells us Faith without Works(TORAH) is dead....

 

[Llewelyn]

The issue I have with many who desperately cling to the "grace only" teaching is that it Ignores Messiah's own words and the example set by the apostles.

You, and I are in agreement there. Grace is not an excuse, but the power of God, as Paul teaches in Romans. I was wondering why Paul's writings brought such angst to the OP. I do not read any conflict between Paul's writings and the OT except you take what he says out of context. Understand the man and you will understand what he says.

 

[BukiRob]

You, and I are in agreement there. Grace is not an excuse, but the power of God, as Paul teaches in Romans. I was wondering why Paul's writings brought such angst to the OP. I do not read any conflict between Paul's writings and the OT except you take what he says out of context. Understand the man and you will understand what he says.

Saw something that IMO helps understand this concept.

The LIE in the Garden was that the fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil would make them "like G-d" Prior to that Adam and Eve were dependent on G-d to be shown what to do, what was Good.... G-d had determined that such knowledge was an attempt to usurp G-d and replace Him. By doing so, they were going to be the arbitrators of what was and was not good and evil.

When a believer cast aside the Torah they are doing the very same thing that Adam and Eve did when they took it upon themselves to decide what was good and evil. Likewise G-d is our source of DEFINING what is GOOD and what is Evil....


it is so important to understand that when G-D see man "doing right in his own eyes" we are making an attempt to replace G-d's eternal truth. You see, something that is good is FOREVER good from G-d's standard( I am not speaking in human terms but rather universal truths of Adonai) It is like the truth of math. 2+2=4 It is a truth that was true yesterday, today and tomorrow.

When a believer says "The Torah is no longer needed" this is exactly what they are doing. They are casting aside Truth in exchange for the sin of Adam and Eve... they were going to decide for themselves what was good.

This is also why we are told to CLING TO THE TRUTH... and it is the TRUTH that sets us free. G-d's truth is reliable. It is the same yesterday, today and forever. It is not prey to the failures of human error and lack of understanding.

 

[Hoghead1]

lol. I do not know how it is that a believer does not want that which is holy and good. I do not despise the Law, I look into it for it teaches me justice, but I do not look to the Law for justification. Personally I love the Law for it is good and beneficial in so many ways. I do not see the Law as merely the big 10 as so many put it. These are good but they are incomplete without the rest of the Law and the prophets. I am a believer and I believe that God is God from beginning to end: from Genesis to Revelation. I do not despise one book although I will admit I find the Song of Solomon hard to read, and mostly don't though I am guided there from time to time in my studies.

So my meaning of "I am not obligated to the Law" is this: I do not look to the Law for justification. Christ is enough. Because of Christ the Law has become my nature: it is what I do. With regards to circumcision; circumcision defined a Jew, whereas faith defines those who are born of God. Faith is my circumcision and Jesus Christ is my Sabbath. I do not profane Christ by trying to work out my salvation by keeping the Law. If we sin, if we confess our sin he is faithful and just to forgive our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:9. I want his word in my heart and not merely before my eyes or in my head. Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. And, yes, that includes the whole book.

Well, OK, but when you are referring to the "law," just what laws are you referring to? Are you following al the OT laws, for example?

 

[pat34lee]

I do not need a set of instructions to love my wife. I loved my wife from the beginning, without Paul's writings and this may come as a surprise to you but I only married my wife on the condition that it pleased God. I asked him for permission to marry her.

You may need to answer this, who was the Torah given to? Was it not given to Moses and the children of Israel? Yes, it was, but not to the whole world. Therefore the Torah is for the Jew.

Stopping here because you are starting out wrong.

First, you would be the first if you love your wife
exactly as she would like. If nothing else prohibits
it, sin does in the form of selfishness, vanity, and
a few other character flaws. The point being, that
with her right there, you still don't get everything
right. How could you not fail with Yahweh when he
is so other to us? The only clue you have as to his
desires are in the Torah.

As to that Torah, what does Yahweh say about it?
That they keep it and hide it away for safety from
the Gentiles? NO. They were to be his priests to the
world.

Exodus 19: 5-6
5 'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;
6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."

 

[Hoghead1]

I do not need a set of instructions to love my wife. I loved my wife from the beginning, without Paul's writings and this may come as a surprise to you but I only married my wife on the condition that it pleased God. I asked him for permission to marry her.

You may need to answer this, who was the Torah given to? Was it not given to Moses and the children of Israel? Yes, it was, but not to the whole world. Therefore the Torah is for the Jew. I am a gentile, what does it have to do with me? I regard the Torah only because I love God and consider it his word. If the Torah was not given to me, how can I now be obligated to it? But I consider it because I see in it the nature of God and of Christ. Since my goal is to be like Christ I do those things found in the Torah. The Seed of God is in me. I do not despise the Jew or the OT.

2ndly, when I go to Deuteronomy 28 I find that the blessings of the Law are for this life and this world: you may store up great treasures in this world by keeping the Law. Jesus said, do not store up treasure in this world, but the next: heaven. If I am not looking for this world's treasures, what obligation do I have to the Law?

You have answered it for yourself. Christ was manifest to take away my sin. Since he has taken it away, how can I do it for it is no longer in me? Now I can go to the Law to discover what sin is or the Holy Spirit can reveal it to me.

I will ponder this, where in the Law does it tell me not to consume alcohol? Yet the Holy Spirit has told me and many others not to consume alcohol; to refrain from it like the sin of fornication. I do not go to the Law to find excuse, as so many do, to disobey God because I want to please him and not men.

Regarding alcohol, no, the Bible actually praises it and does not forbid it. Then again, some today cannot handle it. The concept of "alcoholism" as a disease and major problem largely comes into view in much later society. There are very early accounts of persons having drinking problems, including some to be found in the Bible. However, it does not appear to have been then problem then as it is today. So maybe the Spirit was right to steer you away from alcohol, maybe you are one who cannot tolerate it and is somehow predisposed to having or developing a serious drinking problem.

 

[BukiRob]

Regarding alcohol, no, the Bible actually praises it and does not forbid it. Then again, some today cannot handle it. The concept of "alcoholism" as a disease and major problem largely comes into view in much later society. There are very early accounts of persons having drinking problems, including some to be found in the Bible. However, it does not appear to have been then problem then as it is today. So maybe the Spirit was right to steer you away from alcohol, maybe you are one who cannot tolerate it and is somehow predisposed to having or developing a serious drinking problem.

The Ruach Hakodesh guides each of us as believers. This is where we see Paul admonishing to suffer one another's weakness.. he speaks about this at length in Romans 14.

 

[Llewelyn]

You may need to answer this, who was the Torah given to? Was it not given to Moses and the children of Israel? Yes, it was, but not to the whole world. Therefore the Torah is for the Jew. I am a gentile, what does it have to do with me? I regard the Torah only because I love God and consider it his word. If the Torah was not given to me, how can I now be obligated to it? But I consider it because I see in it the nature of God and of Christ. Since my goal is to be like Christ I do those things found in the Torah. The Seed of God is in me. I do not despise the Jew or the OT.

2ndly, when I go to Deuteronomy 28 I find that the blessings of the Law are for this life and this world: you may store up great treasures in this world by keeping the Law. Jesus said, do not store up treasure in this world, but the next: heaven. If I am not looking for this world's treasures, what obligation do I have to the Law?

I wished to return to my post for I awakened this morning to discover I have made an error in judgment.

I have already made it clear that I love the Law and the OT and that I see them as the word of God. At this moment my family and I are once again studying the tabernacle and are on Aaron's garments, discussing the design right down to the intricate colours used throughout for we find that each one has its meaning. To guide us we are using Willie Burton's handwritten notes he gave to my father so many years ago. I think Willie was around the age of 80 at the time. For those who may not have heard of him he was a missionary to the Congo and ministering in Southern Africa [Sth Africa & Zimbabwe] at the time. So this could have been as much as 50 years ago. I am 56 and my dad turns 81 this year.

What I wish to make clear is that I do not consider myself to be in the grasp of the Law because Christ is my sacrifice, and yet I find that I do have an obligation to the Law and the OT, which I love. It was my love of the OT that helped me to see this as I awakened this morning.

It is concerning the words of Jesus, "You search the Scriptures because you hope to find life in them and they speak of me."

I have an obligation to the Torah [as some like to call it here] because I want to know Jesus Christ my saviour. I want to know him so that I can be like him.

Look at the error of our day. Worldwide our governments are forcing us with laws to condone sin. Where in the Scriptures do I find that for a man to lie with a man, a woman with a woman, or people with beasts is an abomination to the Lord? Only the Apostle Paul whom our OP finds so hard to accept makes mention of it in the NT Romans 1. So to know the law abiding nature of Christ I must do as he says, search the Scriptures.

I am sorry if I have been misleading.

 

[Hoghead1]

The Ruach Hakodesh guides each of us as believers. This is where we see Paul admonishing to suffer one another's weakness.. he speaks about this at length in Romans 14.

What does this have to do with my comments on alcohol?

 

[Llewelyn]

I have a great disappointment that our governments are encouraging schools to teach our children to sin and, as in the safe schools program in Australia, to force it upon them. Yes, I have written to make my disappointment known.

I have put this here so that you can know my heart. It is not off topic and I do not wish to further discuss it here. Please remember we are considering Paul's writings and the Torah. I would have you know that I believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God. I find Paul's writings very congruent with the OT and am not surprised for he was a dedicated Pharisee before his conversion.

 

[Hoghead1]

I have a great disappointment that our governments are encouraging schools to teach our children to sin and, as in the safe schools program in Australia, to force it upon them. Yes, I have written to make my disappointment known.

I have put this here so that you can know my heart. It is not off topic and I do not wish to further discuss it here. Please remember we are considering Paul's writings and the Torah. I would have you know that I believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God. I find Paul's writings very congruent with the OT and am not surprised for he was a dedicated Pharisee before his conversion.

Well, of course, our schools are teaching our children to sin. The SOP is that anyone who dares disagree with the fundamentalist version of the Bible and Christianity is automatically to be written off as a child of teh Devil, you name it.

 

[Llewelyn]

Regarding alcohol, no, the Bible actually praises it and does not forbid it. Then again, some today cannot handle it. The concept of "alcoholism" as a disease and major problem largely comes into view in much later society. There are very early accounts of persons having drinking problems, including some to be found in the Bible. However, it does not appear to have been then problem then as it is today. So maybe the Spirit was right to steer you away from alcohol, maybe you are one who cannot tolerate it and is somehow predisposed to having or developing a serious drinking problem.

I would believe that if everyone I knew who felt the Lord told them to abstain had showed this weakness. No, among them were many who were quite in control of this appetite, and some of those even fought for their freedom to consume it until the Lord spoke to them. I do not find that the Bible actually praises it in every place. There are time when it suggests abstinence is the better path. For example the instruction to Lemuel in Proverbs. I do not think it praise to say, "Wine is a mocker."

 

[Hoghead1]

I would believe that if everyone I knew who felt the Lord told them to abstain had showed this weakness. No, among them were many who were quite in control of this appetite, and some of those even fought for their freedom to consume it until the Lord spoke to them. I do not find that the Bible actually praises it in every place. There are time when it suggests abstinence is the better path. For example the instruction to Lemuel in Proverbs. I do not think it praise to say, "Wine is a mocker."

The Bible condemns overindulgence, true, but nevertheless many passages do praise wine. And remember, one of the first miracles of Jesus was to turn water into wine. And Paul told Timothy to take some wine if his stomach bothered him.

 

[Hoghead1]

I would believe that if everyone I knew who felt the Lord told them to abstain had showed this weakness. No, among them were many who were quite in control of this appetite, and some of those even fought for their freedom to consume it until the Lord spoke to them. I do not find that the Bible actually praises it in every place. There are time when it suggests abstinence is the better path. For example the instruction to Lemuel in Proverbs. I do not think it praise to say, "Wine is a mocker."

Save that for the old lady in Dubuque, as they used to say during Prohibition. American Puritanism on the loose. You know, it's interesting how the "Pilgrims" on the Mayflower liked to brew beer. Also, somewhere in the writings of Luther, who loved beer, by the way, he has a line that says if you should run into some t-totaler, you should drink about a six pack and blow your beery breath in his face. You seem to have forgotten that in the old days, water was extremely dangerous to drink. Hence, the safe thing to do was use alcohol.