The mistranslation into the English of the act of Faith that saves ...

EmSw

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Few people are aware that in the Greek texts, there are two very important uses of the word Faith.

One is the Greek word "pistis", which is where we get the English word "Faith", a noun or person place or thing. This word is used 244 times in the NT.

The second and even more important is the Greek word 'pisteuo". This word pisteuo is the verb form of the noun "pistis or Faith." The problem is, the English didn't then, and still does not now have a word in their language to translate "pisteuo" into English.

This Greek word "pisteuo" is a verb, and action word. Defined, but not specifically, it is an act, based upon a belief, sustained by confidense. We all perform thousands of acts of "faithing" all day every day. But those acts of Faithing do not fulfill the specific act of "saving NT faith".

What is the specific act of saving faith?

Well don't take my word for it, lets look at the two main Greek dictionaries.

Exact Quotes,

Strongs : "Pisteuo means not just to believe , but to place confidense in, to trust, reliance upon , not mere credence, hence it is translated , commit unto , commit to ones trust , be committed unto."

The Strongs doesn't tell us specifically what saving faith is , but does tell us what it isn't. It says that pisteuo , used 248 times in the NT, IS NOT just to believe.

The Vines on the other hand does give a specific definition of what "saving NT faith" or pisteuo is. It reads, : "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender."

True NT saving Faith is a continual daily surrendering of our lives to God , and making the many little decisions through out the day , supporting that surrender.

The fact that the English did not have a word in it's dictionary to communicate the most important word in the Scriptures is just mind boggling. The words they chose to translate "pisteuo" are believe, believer, and believing. Although those words are a part of what the act of pisteuo is, taken alone will never produce a relationship with Christ.

Very good Watchman, but you are going to confuse some on this forum. Some can't even grasp 'living' faith.
 
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CodyFaith

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Nah, it's an act of faith.

Source: Many many Bible verses and salvation itself as dictated by the NT. "Original Greek" all you want (but just so you're aware, I'm sure a quick google search of the original language would produce a counter argument to what you're saying... there's always a counter argument). Regardless, salvation is very clear in the Bible.
 
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... The problem is, the English didn't then, and still does not now have a word in their language to translate "pisteuo" into English.

... We all perform thousands of acts of "faithing" all day every day. But those acts of Faithing do not fulfill the specific act of "saving NT faith". ...

... Strongs : "Pisteuo means not just to believe , but to place confidense in, to trust, reliance upon , not mere credence, hence it is translated , commit unto , commit to ones trust , be committed unto." ...

... The Vines on the other hand does give a specific definition of what "saving NT faith" or pisteuo is. It reads, : "A personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender." ...

True NT saving Faith is a continual daily surrendering of our lives to God , and making the many little decisions through out the day , supporting that surrender. ...

The problem is not in the word "believe, belief" vs. "faith" or the lack of a verb form for "faith" (e.g. in theory, I faith, to faith, or a participial "faithing" as you put it) in English. Note that in English (for those whose mother tongue is English), (1) "faith" and "belief" (or "have faith" and "believe") are closely synonymous, (2) the meaning of "saving faith" in the NT is conveyed and read not only in the words "faith" and "belief" (whatever part of speech), but also in the broader context to such word use, such as concerning the object(s) of faith or belief--e.g., God or Jesus or the speech of Jesus--and the nature of the salvation involved.

Thus we may perform acts of "faithing" (as you put it) in daily activity such as trusting people to perform certain tasks/responsibilities or having confidence that it will not rain on a planned outdoor picnic--in which cases the objects of "faithing" or believing are not, for example, Jesus and/or the consequences of His death and resurrection and the context has nothing to do with, for example, offences one may have committed against a Holy God; those are simply different topics with different potential objects of faith or belief.

Vines is an unreliable source for semantic use because it makes so many semantic errors, here such as in packing too much meaning into a word while recognizing too little in the context to that word; the Strong's example in your post is better although in many cases discerning the difference in use between, for example, "to believe" and "to trust" is non-existent as far as the author is concerned, to all appearance--even if to English speakers a slight difference may be discerned in some other uses.

The doctrine of salvation is not packed into a single word, but has a great deal of conceptual baggage conveyed in a great many words, clauses, sections, books, and collection of books. "Faith" and "believe" (or pistis and pisteuo) as words both adds to the salvation argument/doctrine and is in part controlled by it.

That faith or saving faith or believing in the NT is sometimes misread is in most relevant cases very probably not a fault in translation of (Gk) "pisteuo" into an English "believe" verbal form, but in other areas, such as in misunderstanding the argument the NT writers are trying to convey. Or in rare cases if there is in any given individual some misunderstanding about the meaning of the English word "believe" (or "faith") as a translation of a word in the NT, such misunderstanding is better corrected by repeated and more careful reading of the NT or NT book (the whole context) rather than by proposing artificial distinctions not intended by NT authors or their English translators. If in future the semantic range of English words "faith" and "belief" diverges sufficiently, new Bible translations must address that in due course according to common use at the time.
 
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watchman 2

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The problem is not in the word "believe, belief" vs. "faith" or the lack of a verb form for "faith" (e.g. in theory, I faith, to faith, or a participial "faithing" as you put it) in English. Note that in English (for those whose mother tongue is English), (1) "faith" and "belief" (or "have faith" and "believe") are closely synonymous, (2) the meaning of "saving faith" in the NT is conveyed and read not only in the words "faith" and "belief" (whatever part of speech), but also in the broader context to such word use, such as concerning the object(s) of faith or belief--e.g., God or Jesus or the speech of Jesus--and th
 
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sdowney717

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Well now, people who have the Spirit abiding in them will continue to believe, since the Holy Spirit guides them into all truth and they have an anointing from God to know the truth from the evil.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh (the unsaved) set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, (the saved), the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind (the unsaved) is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh (the unsaved) cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. (the saved) Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.(the unsaved) 10 And if Christ is in you,(the saved) the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,(the saved) He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

And 1 John 2, our 'faithing' is not of ourselves, it is by His power we are upheld. He upholds all things, including those He saved by the word of His power..A man lives by every word spoken from the mouth of God.

Let Truth Abide in You
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
 
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Pisteuo or faithing is what word the English should have , is an act, BASED UPON A BELIEF , sustained by confidense.

I disagree with everything you posted. And my disagreement is based first on having the experience , (mind of Christ included) and 30 years of daily study with a Dr from Stanford university. He not only spoke and taught all the ancient languages , but owned himself the largest collection of biblical manuscripts in private hands behind only the Vatican. He used the original ancient texts to teach from.

Understanding this fact about pisteuo was first day in class material. It was mistranslated, period. The English has no word for the verb form of the noun Faith , period. And context , context starts at the beginning when the writers were first communicating their message , not context based on the mistranslation after the fact.

There is, of course, a great deal of scholarship in multiple disciplines behind my post, but comparing credentials is hardly the point. If you have your own scholarship behind your claims, claiming you disagree "with everything (I) posted" is surely absurd. That you may disagree with certain points (more and less substantial as the case may be) is another matter. I suspect our disagreement concerns the theological as well as semantic, but would prefer not to argue. I suggest using illustrations from the NT if there is a "henceforth" to present claims.
 
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watchman 2

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The problem is not in the word "believe, belief" vs. "faith" or the lack of a verb form for "faith" (e.g. in theory, I faith, to faith, or a participial "faithing" as you put it) in English. Note that in English (for those whose mother tongue is English), (1) "faith" and "belief" (or "have faith" and "believe") are closely synonymous, (2) the meaning of "saving faith" in the NT is conveyed and read not only in the words "faith" and "belief" (whatever part of speech), but also in the broader context to such word use, such as concerning the object(s) of faith or belief--e.g., God or Jesus or the speech of Jesus--and the nature of the salvation involved.

Thus we may perform acts of "faithing" (as you put it) in daily activity such as trusting people to perform certain tasks/responsibilities or having confidence that it will not rain on a planned outdoor picnic--in which cases the objects of "faithing" or believing are not, for example, Jesus and/or the consequences of His death and resurrection and the context has nothing to do with, for example, offences one may have committed against a Holy God; those are simply different topics with different potential objects of faith or belief.

Vines is an unreliable source for semantic use because it makes so many semantic errors, here such as in packing too much meaning into a word while recognizing too little in the context to that word; the Strong's example in your post is better although in many cases discerning the difference in use between, for example, "to believe" and "to trust" is non-existent as far as the author is concerned, to all appearance--even if to English speakers a slight difference may be discerned in some other uses.

The doctrine of salvation is not packed into a single word, but has a great deal of conceptual baggage conveyed in a great many words, clauses, sections, books, and collection of books. "Faith" and "believe" (or pistis and pisteuo) as words both adds to the salvation argument/doctrine and is in part controlled by it.

That faith or saving faith or believing in the NT is sometimes misread is in most relevant cases very probably not a fault in translation of (Gk) "pisteuo" into an English "believe" verbal form, but in other areas, such as in misunderstanding the argument the NT writers are trying to convey. Or in rare cases if there is in any given individual some misunderstanding about the meaning of the English word "believe" (or "faith") as a translation of a word in the NT, such misunderstanding is better corrected by repeated and more careful reading of the NT or NT book (the whole context) rather than by proposing artificial distinctions not intended by NT authors or their English translators. If in future the semantic range of English words "faith" and "belief" diverges sufficiently, new Bible translations must address that in due course according to common use at the time.

w2
 
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watchman 2

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There is, of course, a great deal of scholarship in multiple disciplines behind my post, but comparing credentials is hardly the point. If you have your own scholarship behind your claims, claiming you disagree "with everything (I) posted" is surely absurd. That you may disagree with certain points (more and less substantial as the case may be) is another matter. I suspect our disagreement concerns the theological as well as semantic, but would prefer not to argue. I suggest using illustrations from the NT if there is a "henceforth" to present claims.

Rom. 8:9 is as far as i go . If someone can't show me a right understanding of Faith and faithing , how can they have the Spirit of Christ , or Christ. Hence the Word of God would not be theirs to talk about yet.
 
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watchman 2

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Well now, people who have the Spirit abiding in them will continue to believe, since the Holy Spirit guides them into all truth and they have an anointing from God to know the truth from the evil.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh (the unsaved) set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, (the saved), the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind (the unsaved) is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh (the unsaved) cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. (the saved) Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.(the unsaved) 10 And if Christ is in you,(the saved) the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you,(the saved) He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

And 1 John 2, our 'faithing' is not of ourselves, it is by His power we are upheld. He upholds all things, including those He saved by the word of His power..A man lives by every word spoken from the mouth of God.

Let Truth Abide in You
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
 
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watchman 2

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There is, of course, a great deal of scholarship in multiple disciplines behind my post, but comparing credentials is hardly the point. If you have your own scholarship behind your claims, claiming you disagree "with everything (I) posted" is surely absurd. That you may disagree with certain points (more and less substantial as the case may be) is another matter. I suspect our disagreement concerns the theological as well as semantic, but would prefer not to argue. I suggest using illustrations from the NT if there is a "henceforth" to present claims.
 
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sdowney717

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Here are some examples of the faithing (pisteuo) we all do every day.

1) Did you check gravity before you got out of bed this morning? You hop out of bed every day acting on the belief, that you are not going to float up to the ceiling. And you sustain that act, based upon a belief when you stand up and walk.

2) Did you check to see if your legs work before you used them this morning? It's an act of faithing when you act upon the belief that they work and complete the act based upon the belief by actually using your legs. thats faithing.

3)When you put your mail in the mail box today, did you make sure the mailman was going to do his job right today. Or maybe that there was mail service at all? This is Faithing! The act of putting the mail in the mail box, based upon the belief it would go where it's supposed to, sustained by walking away with complete confidense that it would arrive at it's location on time.


What would happen if i only "believed" i could do these things? Nothing!
As I said , God's children have faith in Christ that saves them, due to them being His children, He gifts to them all sorts of things working in them by the Spirit, including faith that is a living faith. There is an bonding witness between His Spirit and our spirits that we are the children of God. Our God watches over us to keep us safe with Him.

Faith is a spiritual gift of God to you.
Romans 12:3New King James Version (NKJV)
Serve God with Spiritual Gifts
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

And here is faith at work, by the power of God to those who believe.

1 Peter 3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,
 
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This is the problem look up. Theres no doubt people are being drawn by the Father , but they never fulfill the covenant , the contract which is the surrendering of their life and will to Him. So they mistakenly go right from the drawing to claiming all of Gods promises , never realizing their still in the drawing process.

I suspect I agree with the above post (if consistent, e.g., with Matt. 7:21ff)--I say "suspect" because I am not sure what you mean for example by "drawn by the Father , but (...) never fulfill[ing] the covenant." But I have not written on this thread on this topic before: tares among the wheat or the like.
 
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  1. Here are some examples of the faithing (pisteuo) we all do every day.

    1) Did you check gravity before you got out of bed this morning? You hop out of bed every day acting on the belief, that you are not going to float up to the ceiling. And you sustain that act, based upon a belief when you stand up and walk.

    2) Did you check to see if your legs work before you used them this morning? It's an act of faithing when you act upon the belief that they work and complete the act based upon the belief by actually using your legs. thats faithing.

    3)When you put your mail in the mail box today, did you make sure the mailman was going to do his job right today. Or maybe that there was mail service at all? This is Faithing! The act of putting the mail in the mail box, based upon the belief it would go where it's supposed to, sustained by walking away with complete confidense that it would arrive at it's location on time.

    I know i could have come up with better examples, breathing, starting your car, going through an intersection trusting that the other person will honor the lights as you do. There are thousands of acts, based upon a belief, sustained by confidense, that we perform everyday. That is what faithing (pisteuo) is. We don't recognize this act as faith because we don't have a word for it in our language.
The above illustrations thus seem consistent with my own attempts to illustrate as per the 2nd paragraph of my post to which the above is a response: "trusting people to perform certain tasks/responsibilities or having confidence that it will not rain on a planned outdoor picnic"--to which one might also quibble, but if in the main you agree that my illustrations capture something of what you later illustrate as above, that is one point we need not argue here.

The Faith or faithing that saves is the act of personally surrendering our life and will to God, with the belief that He will take the surrendered life, and sustained with confident decisions that prove our life is not our own anymore, but His. And that we really are performing or fulfilling the daily surrendering of our life and will to Him, and show God we are genuinely surrendering our life and will to Him.
This is the Faith and faithing that starts the relationship, before the Spirit of Christ, Christ, and His Word are ours to claim.

This is the Faith and faithing that maintains the relationship, after we are sealed with His Spirit, Chrsit is ours and being formed in our hearts, and His Word is ours to claim.

This is the Faith and faithing that completes the relationship here on this earth. After God has regenerated us into faithers, that are responding with saving faith. At this point, it is harder to get out of Gods will , than it is to stay in it.

There is so much in the above quote of yours with which I agree (or think I do) that it is difficult for me to relate it to our previous friendly disagreement on this thread. Perhaps our disagreements lie in the difference between that which attends or stands in consequence of saving faith and wherein that faith per se consists. But in that or other case, I am not sure further discussion on the matter at this point is worthwhile.
 
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EmSw

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I know this is a hard understanding , but i still have to try. If i hadn't had the experience of what happens when Pisteuo is done correctly , i would probably not give this a second look.

The understanding of Faith has been completely lost to time and history.

Genuine faith is never dead; it is always active.
 
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watchman 2

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As I said , God's children have faith in Christ that saves them, due to them being His children, He gifts to them all sorts of things working in them by the Spirit, including faith that is a living faith. There is an bonding witness between His Spirit and our spirits that we are the children of God. Our God watches over us to keep us safe with Him.

Faith is a spiritual gift of God to you.
Romans 12:3New King James Version (NKJV)
Serve God with Spiritual Gifts
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

And here is faith at work, by the power of God to those who believe.

1 Peter 3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,
As I said , God's children have faith in Christ that saves them, due to them being His children, He gifts to them all sorts of things working in them by the Spirit, including faith that is a living faith. There is an bonding witness between His Spirit and our spirits that we are the children of God. Our God watches over us to keep us safe with Him.

Faith is a spiritual gift of God to you.
Romans 12:3New King James Version (NKJV)
Serve God with Spiritual Gifts
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

And here is faith at work, by the power of God to those who believe.

1 Peter 3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,
 
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watchman 2

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I suspect I agree with the above post (if consistent, e.g., with Matt. 7:21ff)--I say "suspect" because I am not sure what you mean for example by "drawn by the Father , but (...) never fulfill[ing] the covenant." But I have not written on this thread on this topic before: tares among the wheat or the like.


Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father draws them.
 
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watchman 2

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The above illustrations thus seem consistent with my own attempts to illustrate as per the 2nd paragraph of my post to which the above is a response: "trusting people to perform certain tasks/responsibilities or having confidence that it will not rain on a planned outdoor picnic"--to which one might also quibble, but if in the main you agree that my illustrations capture something of what you later illustrate as above, that is one point we need not argue here.


There is so much in the above quote of yours with which I agree (or think I do) that it is difficult for me to relate it to our previous friendly disagreement on this thread. Perhaps our disagreements lie in the difference between that which attends or stands in consequence of saving faith and wherein that faith per se consists. But in that or other case, I am not sure further discussion on the matter at this point is worthwhile.
 
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