the Lord Jesus ..is fully God fully man ,...but a question

Open Heart

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I've never heard of this. Please provide a reputable source, like a science magazine or at least a credible newspaper, but NOT the national enquirer.

I'm also curious WHY you think this. What possible reason would God have to use two women? And what do you do with the fact that Gabriel tells Mary that she will conceive, and she also ends up being the one to give birth?
 
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Open Heart

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And actually have read something somewhere, maybe from Pope Paul, talking about all that made Him human came completely from Mary.
I love the Pope dearly, but a woman cannot supply the Y chromosome of a man. Eggs are XX only.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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i wonder why it must be that we define the three persons in such distinct separation from one another ? is it possible to truly do so when they are on a level of unity which is utterly beyond our comprehension ?,do we really glorify God .. (the very word in hebrew i understand to be "plural" in nature) when we attempt to define him down to the comprehension of our fallen intellect ?
the word of God declares the Godhead . the word of man declares the doctrine on the trinity .. the word of God asks of me faith,even in the absence of intellectual comprehension (child like faith), faith without which i cannot please God ..
in contrast the doctrine of the trinity asks of me intellectual comprehension..it is based upon understanding ,upon which we are also told to NOT lean .
If only scripture is considered the Word of God, why would it indicate: the Apostles were to go and teach all that they had HEARD, it records them doing so and telling others to faithfully pass on what those others HEARD from them, God promised that whatever they "bind" on earth, would be "bound" in Heaven, and in this teaching effort He would be with them until the end of the earth (preserve that effort)? Are those things scripture shows being taught then not also the "Word of God"?
God is , he has spoken his speaking became flesh to save us.his name is JEsus and he is wonderful and he is lord .. he was before all things and by him all things were created and he will be always.. Just as the the psalmist by the inspiration of the holy Spirit says .. thy word have you exalted above your name .. and just as the same spirit through the apostles said-
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And your depiction of Jesus seems in full agreement with the Trinity Doctrine, so again am unclear why one would deny assent to it.
how is it that his word is exalted above his name and then the name of the son is exalted above every name ? because they are one and the same .
and how is it that it is written that the son whose name is given above every name is then brought into subjection? "When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." ? for the simple reason that the word spoken is the out going expression of the one who spoke it .. while at the same time being the expression of the speaker .
Good but I would add here that all men, and He is a Man now, are subject to Him.
he is both in and beside , both seated at the right hand of the father (in his positional authority ) and in unity at the heart of the father .. for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

your trying to pin him down to this or that , but by his very nature he,with whom nothing is impossible and who is the one true living and incomprehensible GOD ..is both he is three persons and he is incomprehensibly one .If he were not then the very suggested limitation would suggest he is not GOD with whom nothing is impossible .
and it is enough for me to accept that he is able,this most beautiful one who has no beginning and no end .. that in itself being beyond the scope of our puny comprehensions .
Unclear to me how you think the Trinity Doctrine "pins" Him down to "this or that" anymore than you have here, which again if I understand seems to be in full agreement.
------
as for the unorthodox views of human afterlife... ? i don't recall mentioning anything unorthodox there .. it is written that when he returns we will be transformed ..both those who have passed and those who live at the time ..and mortality will be put off and immortality put on and we are give a new and incorruptible body .. glorified .. for whom the lord justified them he also glorifies .. flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. basic stuff really .
Unorthodox would be the no body part. God made man a being of flesh and spirit united. He said that was not just Good (as He remarked about everything else created), but "Very Good". How to see the end game of humanity then as going from Very Good, to being made into something else, (just spirit)?
Flesh and spirit. It is the carnal mind of our flesh that will not be present in Heaven in the next life. So Saint Paul properly speaks of our resurrection (body of flesh and soul) putting an end to that carnal mind - the glorified would in paraphrase of his words, would no longer be at war with it's members. After the creation of our race and until sin, man lived in unity/harmony with his body. The fall ended that. Christ said He is making all things new AGAIN, which describes a restoration of everything, including what He made possible for us - restoring us to once again be human (body and flesh) as God made us - not a transformation of the human into something no longer human (which by definition was created with a body of flesh).

Jesus body was gone, not because it was vaporized but because it was resurrected. He demonstrated a body of flesh to His Disciples, they touched His Body. He ate with them. Changed? Yes!. Glorified body? Yes? Different abilities? Absolutely! He appeared/disappeared, perhaps appearing to walk through things - but that does not meanWe are not caterpillars changing into something else.
 
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Chicken Little

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second of all I doubt he uses the word
"conceive", but maybe more like "with Child".
and there is today boat loads of ladies that never conceived but are or were 'with child'. maybe even some virgins. nah.. but it sure could happen now days.
 
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Open Heart

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Open Heart

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nope I meant exactly what I said. so If it is blob to you , it is a child to me.
You are fooling only yourself. There is no way that you can describe a small undifferentiated number of cells a "FULLY developed child." FULLY developed means things like, he has a beating heart and breathing lungs and a working brain and ten fingers and toes. I'm not saying an embryo isn't fully human -- that's another question. I'm simply saying he is not fully developed, which you have claimed, hysterically.
 
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Alithis

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And in every response you have failed to explain what you mean by "aspect".

Since it appears an "aspect" can be temporary ("returns" to God from Whom it "came") and you fail to deny it, except to suggest (again without confirming) these "aspects" were "with God" in the beginning, am left to guess what is meant by "aspect". Since you will not say one way or the other and refuse to accept calling these "aspects" Persons (completely wrong you said), we can only surmise that in this view there are NOT Three distinct Persons in this idea of "aspects" of God. IOW even if Son of God and Holy Spirit are eternal "aspects" of God, the notion is they are not considered distinct Individuals from the Father, but rather "aspects" of Him. Wonder if it is One God, three aspects, but I bet we won't even get an answer on that.
You have now explained and I fail to see from that explanation a great difference in your understanding of God and the Trinity Doctrine.

You mentioned new believers and the confusion the Doctrine can cause. Am thinking it is often the delivery combined with human tendency to want to fully understand something. I agree God is unfathomable by our minds and the Church actually teaches that this Doctrine does not fully explain Him. But you have covered much of it rather well, short of using the word Persons.

I think much of the confusion comes with people assuming things about the meanings behind words like person, essence and nature...etc used in this Doctrine. When it comes to God, people being properly taught need to realize our puny understandings and expressions fail and no analogy is adequate to give us an appreciation of what is far beyond our ability to fully understand.

That doesn't mean we know nothing of God and I think much of our Creeds and the Trinity Doctrine itself are, rather than reminding us of what we believe God is - these teaching are telling us what He is not. But if people are not willing to listen or are all together poorly taught - I agree the concepts can create confusion especially when looked at as attempting to fully explain God.
hmmm i use the words aspect ..rather loosly i guess. but please recall im speaking of things i cannot begin to fathom .. aspects ? perceptions perhaps .i really do not know the word to use .. but then in my heart i do ..but i do wonder if it is speakable with human tongue .. i think the lord encapsulates it best when he referred to himself as .. "I AM" .
the thing is nothing i have shared was ever taught to me externally.. (and yes tat makes it difficult to share outwardly ..it is almost like trying to interpret that which one knows inwardly ,into an another language ..(not translate mind , interpret !) i asked the lord how is it that the lord Jesus cam be both man and God how is he both equal and yet bought into subjection.. after i was baptised in the holy Spirit ..the things i have attempted to share are the things he showed me of himself and from that day to this i find it over and over in the written word .its there crying out to us but we need him to be able to really see it more .we see it in so many differing degrees "as through a glass darkly" my glass is pretty blurry haha ..
but what i enjoy about seeing this way is it is an ever ongoing journey of discovery and i now know in my heart ..it is a journey that will not ever end because when we get to be in his presence then we will really begin to learn of him eternally .. because there is absolutely no way we can ever catch up and know he who has no beginning and no end.. every moment of our existence in him will be filled with the anticipation f what we will know of him next ..if it were not so i think eternity would be a very boring place lol .. i find it exciting ..endlessly so
 
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he-man

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hmmm i use the words aspect ..rather loosly i guess. but please recall im speaking of things i cannot begin to fathom .. aspects ? perceptions perhaps .i really do not know the word to use .. but then in my heart i do ..but i do wonder if it is speakable with human tongue .. i think the lord encapsulates it best when he referred to himself as .. "I AM" .
the thing is nothing i have shared was ever taught to me externally.. (and yes tat makes it difficult to share outwardly ..it is almost like trying to interpret that which one knows inwardly ,into an another language ..(not translate mind , interpret !) i asked the lord how is it that the lord Jesus cam be both man and God how is he both equal and yet bought into subjection.. after i was baptised in the holy Spirit ..the things i have attempted to share are the things he showed me of himself and from that day to this i find it over and over in the written word .its there crying out to us but we need him to be able to really see it more .we see it in so many differing degrees "as through a glass darkly" my glass is pretty blurry haha ..
but what i enjoy about seeing this way is it is an ever ongoing journey of discovery and i now know in my heart ..it is a journey that will not ever end because when we get to be in his presence then we will really begin to learn of him eternally .. because there is absolutely no way we can ever catch up and know he who has no beginning and no end.. every moment of our existence in him will be filled with the anticipation f what we will know of him next ..if it were not so i think eternity would be a very boring place lol .. i find it exciting ..endlessly so
Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
 
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Open Heart

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but what i enjoy about seeing this way is it is an ever ongoing journey of discovery and i now know in my heart
I notice you chose to line out much of what Dr Bubba Love said. May I suggest to you that you simply eliminate the lines? If you hit the general reply button, you can then highlight and delete within the quotes. Another way to do it is to highlight the text in the post, and use the immedate reply popup button that appears. Then you will have only that specific text in your quotes. It's less work, and less messy, than lining through.
 
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Alithis

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I notice you chose to line out much of what Dr Bubba Love said. May I suggest to you that you simply eliminate the lines? If you hit the general reply button, you can then highlight and delete within the quotes. Another way to do it is to highlight the text in the post, and use the immediate reply popup button that appears. Then you will have only that specific text in your quotes. It's less work, and less messy, than lining through.
oopsy you .. i didnt do that .. he did ..i didn't actually read the parts he lined out either ..
 
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he-man

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great :) nothing i have said contradicts that :)
Amen! Elohim is plural for angels, whom GOD commanded to help with the creation, not a mortal man like Jesus. Isa 54:16 Lo, I--I have prepared an artisan, Blowing on a fire of coals, And bringing out an instrument for his work, And I have prepared a destroyer [angel of the Lord] to destroy.
Exo 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
Num 22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
Jesus was only human when God created him as a mortal, without immortality. Anyone who has immortality cannot die, as Jesus did as a mortal. People do not have immortality in the second death. 2Th 1:9 who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
 
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Alithis

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Amen! Elohim is plural for angels, whom GOD commanded to help with the creation, not a mortal man like Jesus. Isa 54:16 Lo, I--I have prepared an artisan, Blowing on a fire of coals, And bringing out an instrument for his work, And I have prepared a destroyer [angel of the Lord] to destroy.
Exo 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
Num 22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
Jesus was only human when God created him as a mortal, without immortality. Anyone who has immortality cannot die, as Jesus did as a mortal. People do not have immortality in the second death. 2Th 1:9 who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
lol im not saying amen to that .. it denies that Jesus is lord
 
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DrBubbaLove

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second of all I doubt he uses the word
"conceive", but maybe more like "with Child".
and there is today boat loads of ladies that never conceived but are or were 'with child'. maybe even some virgins. nah.. but it sure could happen now days.
The conception in Mary's womb is supernatural. But to assure us that He is indeed human it sort of a necessity to say everything that makes Him human He gets from Mary, a process we would have to say God is certainly capable.
I love the Pope dearly, but a woman cannot supply the Y chromosome of a man. Eggs are XX only.
And that would be why the conception was supernatural. No need to imagine God violating a virgin (as some do) to "supply" some additional human material. There was only one human participant who said yes to creating that Man.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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hmmm i use the words aspect ..rather loosly i guess. but please recall im speaking of things i cannot begin to fathom .. aspects ? perceptions perhaps .i really do not know the word to use .. but then in my heart i do ..but i do wonder if it is speakable with human tongue .. i think the lord encapsulates it best when he referred to himself as .. "I AM" .
the thing is nothing i have shared was ever taught to me externally.. (and yes tat makes it difficult to share outwardly ..it is almost like trying to interpret that which one knows inwardly ,into an another language ..(not translate mind , interpret !) i asked the lord how is it that the lord Jesus cam be both man and God how is he both equal and yet bought into subjection.. after i was baptised in the holy Spirit ..the things i have attempted to share are the things he showed me of himself and from that day to this i find it over and over in the written word .its there crying out to us but we need him to be able to really see it more .we see it in so many differing degrees "as through a glass darkly" my glass is pretty blurry haha ..
but what i enjoy about seeing this way is it is an ever ongoing journey of discovery and i now know in my heart ..it is a journey that will not ever end because when we get to be in his presence then we will really begin to learn of him eternally .. because there is absolutely no way we can ever catch up and know he who has no beginning and no end.. every moment of our existence in him will be filled with the anticipation f what we will know of him next ..if it were not so i think eternity would be a very boring place lol .. i find it exciting ..endlessly so
And may God bless you richly on this journey!
 
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DrBubbaLove

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oopsy you .. i didnt do that .. he did ..i didn't actually read the parts he lined out either ..
I had posted something to an early response of Alithis and before I finished he had already posted again with an explanation that nullified what I just posted. Rather than erase what I said - which was a misunderstanding of his position and a rather harsh response to it IMO, I had that response lined out and rewrote the rest as a reply to him. I found those special characaters are only visible in post/edit by hitting the icon upper right of text box.

I did not want to just edit erase something already posted that he had probably already read. Sorry.
 
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he-man

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lol im not saying amen to that .. it denies that Jesus is lord
You have a lot to learn!
Elohim is plural for angels, whom GOD commanded to help with the creation, not a mortal man like Jesus. Isa 54:16 Lo, I--I have prepared an artisan, Blowing on a fire of coals, And bringing out an instrument for his work, And I have prepared a destroyer [angel of the Lord] to destroy.
2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.
2Ki 19:35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
Exo 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt...
Heb 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Exo 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
Num 22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
2Ki 19:35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote/ in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.
6 Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.

Act 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Jesus was only human when God created him as a mortal, without immortality. Anyone who has immortality cannot die, as Jesus did as a mortal. People do not have immortality in the second death.
2Th 1:9 who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
 
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Alithis

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You have a lot to learn!
Elohim is plural for angels, whom GOD commanded to help with the creation, not a mortal man like Jesus. Isa 54:16 Lo, I--I have prepared an artisan, Blowing on a fire of coals, And bringing out an instrument for his work, And I have prepared a destroyer [angel of the Lord] to destroy.
2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.
2Ki 19:35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
Exo 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt...
Heb 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Exo 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
Num 22:31 Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
2Ki 19:35 And it came to pass that night, that the angel of the LORD went out, and smote/ in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they were all dead corpses.
Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.
6 Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them.

Act 12:23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

Jesus was only human when God created him as a mortal, without immortality. Anyone who has immortality cannot die, as Jesus did as a mortal. People do not have immortality in the second death.
2Th 1:9 who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
i have much to learn .. yes ,eternally so .. it is also written that in him dwelt the fullness of the Godhead bodily .. so im stil not saying amen to you .your stance imo denies christ's lordship.
 
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Open Heart

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oopsy you .. i didnt do that .. he did ..i didn't actually read the parts he lined out either ..
You know what? I just had it happen to me too!!! I posted a reply and half of it came out lined through. I couldn't figure out how to fix it. :(
 
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