the Lord Jesus ..is fully God fully man ,...but a question

[fatherjimparker]

<<I never claim to be a scholar. >>

Good. You certainly are not.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

nope .. youve got it wrong is all.

God is his word and his word is himself expressed outwardly .. he did not create his word ..his word is him with him goes out from him and returned unto him from whence he came .

in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God ,the same was in the beginning with God ,all things were made by "Him" .

and the word ..is the speaking .. word is uttered .it is not referring to a book as some are trying to say

This seems incoherent. On the one hand one seems to express the idea of a Person proceeding from another Person, but then a suggestion in the way "returning" is expressed suggests to me more of the idea of a force, influence, power or maybe even temporary form/state condition.
The procession of the Son from the Father is eternal, as the procession of the Holy Spirit. Am unclear if that is coming through here.

 

[Alithis]

This seems incoherent. On the one hand one seems to express the idea of a Person proceeding from another Person, but then a suggestion in the way "returning" is expressed suggests to me more of the idea of a force, influence, power or maybe even temporary form/state condition.
The procession of the Son from the Father is eternal, as the procession of the Holy Spirit. Am unclear if that is coming through here.

funny you should say that its seems incoherent .. for it is written that the carnal mind cannot comprehend the things of the Spirit .. God is spirit he has no physical form he is also unseen by the eye .. but who he is, is known by what he says ..(just like you and I ) for from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks...
God spoke and created the heavens and the earth by what he said .. God expressed his heart in love and desire to reconcile man unto himself .. and his word became flesh that he might take upon himself the sin of many and so rescue us from the ultimate resultant wage of sin .

the lord jesus made this very clear over and over saying if you have seen me you have seen the father and also ..
-just as when you or i speak our words do not go out from us of our their own volition .. we speak them by our will and thus our word goes out from us .do the lord jesus said .. "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.50"I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.".. he is the mouthpiece ..the speaking of God .

and again he said " I came from the Father into the world, and now I will leave the world and return to the Father." And as the lord said So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

and so the word became flesh ..

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Alithis
LOL, am called carnal minded for not understanding a view presented here. The view seems even clearer from this last post as not being one that sees Son of God or the Holy Spirit as Persons, much less God Himself, but rather something like aspects of, forces from, emanations of God. Things from God but not actually God, things which can "return" to God. Which is sort of what I thought from the first post regarding your view of God. Am I wrong?

 

[Alithis]

Alithis
LOL, am called carnal minded for not understanding a view presented here. The view seems even clearer from this last post as not being one that sees Son of God or the Holy Spirit as Persons, much less God Himself, but rather something like aspects of, forces from, emanations of God. Things from God but not actually God, things which can "return" to God. Which is sort of what I thought from the first post regarding your view of God. Am I wrong?

completely
.in every aspect i speak of "him"

 

[Biblicist]

-As the lord Jesus was born of the Spirit and not of the flesh .and formed in the womb of a virgin.so excluding the blood of Adam from playing any part in that process .
did the lord God miraculously fertilize an egg of mary's ? or did the lord God fully become flesh in her womb -independent of any human input ( as he had no need of such )

As Jesus was born of human flesh then Adam's blood line had a lot to do with the birth of Jesus, without this bloodline and human flesh then there would be no reason for Jesus to be born of a woman.

Your question also has a lot to do with how you (we) view the transmission of the human soul which probably has more to do with your question than would mere flesh.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

edit note :AS the OP i feel my question has been already satisfactorily addressed. so I open the thread to Digress in what ever way it does.
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after a recent misunderstanding i decided it would be interesting to look further into the question.
But as the question risks challenging (sort of) the Nicene creed, though its not my intent to , I decided to ask it here .(hope its the right place )
please note-I repeat - I in no way intend to disagree with the Nicene creed .that is Not my goal at all.

my question is .. -As the lord Jesus was born of the Spirit and not of the flesh .and formed in the womb of a virgin.so excluding the blood of Adam from playing any part in that process .
did the lord God miraculously fertilize an egg of mary's ? or did the lord God fully become flesh in her womb -independent of any human input ( as he had no need of such )
this is an honest question im not hereto argue it one way or the other but i will push back at answers to test them ..
- im just like that -it does not mean im unwilling to accept the answers ,only that i will push the wall ,to see if it is stable so to speak .

Hmmm the word became "flesh" and lived among us. Jesus was born as a human baby, and developed as a human child and became a human adult. When Jesus returned to his hometown after Egypt people treated him as if he were the kid they knew when he was growing up, and as a result he couldn't do many miracles in that place. Though the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and it is not said how it was done in that passage, the way Jesus grew up and developed would indicate that he was very human. If this were an alien fetus growing independent of the human mother, this would be immediately apparent .. and Jesus would have been not allowed to go into the temple because he would be "blemished." So from this i'd "imagine" that Jesus was the result of the Holy Spirit "reprogramming" one of Mary's eggs so as to give birth to a human baby with the DNA of God.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

completely
.in every aspect i speak of "him"

I did not say you did not see those things as "aspects" of Him, in fact that was part of my reply you just denied. The point is this understanding does not seem to see those "aspects" as distinct Individuals. Which is not much different than someone describing modes, forms, manesfestations...etc of God. So am I wrong that you do NOT see these "aspects" of God as Persons?

 

[Alithis]

I did not say you did not see those things as "aspects" of Him, in fact that was part of my reply you just denied. The point is this understanding does not seem to see those "aspects" as distinct Individuals. Which is not much different than someone describing modes, forms, manifestations...etc of God. So am I wrong that you do NOT see these "aspects" of God as Persons?

and you would be wrong again.. i see both and more ..

 

[DrBubbaLove]

and you would be wrong again.. i see both and more ..

I see , so you agree then that Jesus is God (and is [now and forever] also a man), Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Three Persons, One God. Good. That is why I asked, to see if there was agreement.

Am not sure of the "more" part but at least we agree on this much. Again it was not clear from your posts that you agreed with these parts of the Trinity Doctrine. Perhaps that is due to the "more" part.

 

[Alithis]

I see , so you agree then that Jesus is God (and is [now and forever] also a man), Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Three Persons, One God. Good. That is why I asked, to see if there was agreement.

Am not sure of the "more" part but at least we agree on this much. Again it was not clear from your posts that you agreed with these parts of the Trinity Doctrine. Perhaps that is due to the "more" part.

the more is that the doctrines of the trinity in its present form are in honesty merely mans extremely limited attempt to comprehend and encapsulate in a single phrase the incomprehensible one true living God .
he became flesh having come from the father and he died and was raised again from the dead and then glorified (when we go to be with him we also will be glorified and transforms and no longer be flesh and blood {for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven -pp) } then the word of God having come from the father , having accomplished that which he was sent to do returned unto the father from whence he came .. he was he is and he will be again .. he is the beginning of all things (to do with man ) and yet has no beginning ..he is all these things and more . i have no desire to diminish him into a singular definition as i beleive it cannot be done . though i understand the simplistic need to try and describe him min some ways .
though i am also seeing it causes more confusion to new believers then aids them .

some things can only be truly comprehended in the spirit as revealed by the Holy Spirit and the carnal mind simply cannot comprehend -it grabs hold of floating bits and pieces and tries to assemble them without ever having the entire or ever being able to have , the entire picture . It is with the heart that one believes .. not the intellect

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Alithis,
That sounds nice except for the unorthodox views of human afterlife, but still leaves me wondering if there really are Three distinct Persons in this view or if there is only One Person with various modes/aspects. Which is why I asked specifically that much, but it appears you are unable or unwilling to clarify other than to say you'd rather not get more specific.

The Trinity Doctrine is hardly considered a "complete" or "full" understanding of God. The Doctrine declares what has been revealed about God to mankind. The development of such a doctrine became necessary to defend the faithful against teachings deemed not just in error but often dangerous to the flock, often because it was found to conflict with or weakens/work against other revealed truths already held in what became a growing body of teachings.

 

[Alithis]

Alithis,
That sounds nice except for the unorthodox views of human afterlife, but still leaves me wondering if there really are Three distinct Persons in this view or if there is only One Person with various modes/aspects. Which is why I asked specifically that much, but it appears you are unable or unwilling to clarify other than to say you'd rather not get more specific.

The Trinity Doctrine is hardly considered a "complete" or "full" understanding of God. The Doctrine declares what has been revealed about God to mankind. The development of such a doctrine became necessary to defend the faithful against teachings deemed not just in error but often dangerous to the flock, often because it was found to conflict with or weakens/work against other revealed truths already held in what became a growing body of teachings.

i wonder why it must be that we define the three persons in such distinct separation from one another ? is it possible to truly do so when they are on a level of unity which is utterly beyond our comprehension ?,do we really glorify God .. (the very word in hebrew i understand to be "plural" in nature) when we attempt to define him down to the comprehension of our fallen intellect ?
the word of God declares the Godhead . the word of man declares the doctrine on the trinity .. the word of God asks of me faith,even in the absence of intellectual comprehension (child like faith), faith without which i cannot please God ..
in contrast the doctrine of the trinity asks of me intellectual comprehension..it is based upon understanding ,upon which we are also told to NOT lean .

God is , he has spoken his speaking became flesh to save us.his name is JEsus and he is wonderful and he is lord .. he was before all things and by him all things were created and he will be always.. Just as the the psalmist by the inspiration of the holy Spirit says .. thy word have you exalted above your name .. and just as the same spirit through the apostles said-
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

how is it that his word is exalted above his name and then the name of the son is exalted above every name ? because they are one and the same .
and how is it that it is written that the son whose name is given above every name is then brought into subjection? "When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." ? for the simple reason that the word spoken is the out going expression of the one who spoke it .. while at the same time being the expression of the speaker .

he is both in and beside , both seated at the right hand of the father (in his positional authority ) and in unity at the heart of the father .. for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

your trying to pin him down to this or that , but by his very nature he,with whom nothing is impossible and who is the one true living and incomprehensible GOD ..is both he is three persons and he is incomprehensibly one .If he were not then the very suggested limitation would suggest he is not GOD with whom nothing is impossible .
and it is enough for me to accept that he is able,this most beautiful one who has no beginning and no end .. that in itself being beyond the scope of our puny comprehensions .

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as for the unorthodox views of human afterlife... ? i don't recall mentioning anything unorthodox there .. it is written that when he returns we will be transformed ..both those who have passed and those who live at the time ..and mortality will be put off and immortality put on and we are give a new and incorruptible body .. glorified .. for whom the lord justified them he also glorifies .. flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. basic stuff really .

 

[Open Heart]

I read somewhere that the blood came from the Father

It's an outdated expression. Sperm do not contain blood. So the whole point of "the life is in the blood" doesn't really apply. When we say someone is a blood relative, we mean they are biologically related. It has nothing to do with blood.

 

[Chicken Little]

I know what is said and believed by most , but I believe God planted a child not a sperm.
and that Jesus had two moms. if science can do it then you know God could have.. for sure!
because legally he would have been from one woman and then baptized in the second woman's blood at his birth.
so legally he would have had rights by both lineages. that is what I think and I wont defend it.
i'm just throwing in my idea.

 

[Open Heart]

I know what is said and believed by most , but I believe God planted a child not a sperm.
and that Jesus had two moms. if science can do it then you know God could have.. for sure!
because legally he would have been from one woman and then baptized in the second woman's blood at his birth.
so legally he would have had rights by both lineages. that is what I think and I wont defend it.
i'm just throwing in my idea.

I'm not opposed to novel ideas. However, I'm curious to understand how you think this two mom thing happened. Was this a case of an egg fertilizing another egg? Do you mean that one woman donated her egg, which would still have had to be miraculously fertilized, and then the egg was implanted by some sort of in vitro fertalization? Just how did this work?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

completely
.in every aspect i speak of "him"

And in every response you have failed to explain what you mean by "aspect".

Since it appears an "aspect" can be temporary ("returns" to God from Whom it "came") and you fail to deny it, except to suggest (again without confirming) these "aspects" were "with God" in the beginning, am left to guess what is meant by "aspect". Since you will not say one way or the other and refuse to accept calling these "aspects" Persons (completely wrong you said), we can only surmise that in this view there are NOT Three distinct Persons in this idea of "aspects" of God. IOW even if Son of God and Holy Spirit are eternal "aspects" of God, the notion is they are not considered distinct Individuals from the Father, but rather "aspects" of Him. Wonder if it is One God, three aspects, but I bet we won't even get an answer on that.
You have now explained and I fail to see from that explanation a great difference in your understanding of God and the Trinity Doctrine.

You mentioned new believers and the confusion the Doctrine can cause. Am thinking it is often the delivery combined with human tendency to want to fully understand something. I agree God is unfathomable by our minds and the Church actually teaches that this Doctrine does not fully explain Him. But you have covered much of it rather well, short of using the word Persons.

I think much of the confusion comes with people assuming things about the meanings behind words like person, essence and nature...etc used in this Doctrine. When it comes to God, people being properly taught need to realize our puny understandings and expressions fail and no analogy is adequate to give us an appreciation of what is far beyond our ability to fully understand.

That doesn't mean we know nothing of God and I think much of our Creeds and the Trinity Doctrine itself are, rather than reminding us of what we believe God is - these teaching are telling us what He is not. But if people are not willing to listen or are all together poorly taught - I agree the concepts can create confusion especially when looked at as attempting to fully explain God.

 

[Chicken Little]

I'm not opposed to novel ideas. However, I'm curious to understand how you think this two mom thing happened. Was this a case of an egg fertilizing another egg? Do you mean that one woman donated her egg, which would still have had to be miraculously fertilized, and then the egg was implanted by some sort of in vitro fertalization? Just how did this work?

how is it done today? a fully formed child can be planted into any womb,and it is no big deal. a fully formed child can be frozen and transplanted years later even today . and if man can do it then you know it won't be any big deal for God to do.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Hmmm the word became "flesh" and lived among us. Jesus was born as a human baby, and developed as a human child and became a human adult. When Jesus returned to his hometown after Egypt people treated him as if he were the kid they knew when he was growing up, and as a result he couldn't do many miracles in that place. Though the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and it is not said how it was done in that passage, the way Jesus grew up and developed would indicate that he was very human. If this were an alien fetus growing independent of the human mother, this would be immediately apparent .. and Jesus would have been not allowed to go into the temple because he would be "blemished." So from this i'd "imagine" that Jesus was the result of the Holy Spirit "reprogramming" one of Mary's eggs so as to give birth to a human baby with the DNA of God.

And actually have read something somewhere, maybe from Pope Paul, talking about all that made Him human came completely from Mary. This defending the teaching that He was fully man (not some alien hybrid or half god). Fully God and fully man.

 

[Open Heart]

how is it done today? a fully formed child can be planted into any womb,and it is no big deal. a fully formed child can be frozen and transplanted years later even today . and if man can do it then you know it won't be any big deal for God to do.

I've never heard of this. Please provide a reputable source, like a science magazine or at least a credible newspaper, but NOT the national enquirer.