The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[faither]

Correct. Those are verbs, and faith is a noun. So again, faith is the body of knowledge that God wants humans to believe or trust in.

Pistis is the noun for Faith. Pisteuo is the verb form of ? are you interested in knowing something earth shattering about pisteuo fg2?

 

[faither]

Marvin I totally agree that once saved always saved, but Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler what he must do to get to Heaven, and He said go, sell, and give and you will have treasure in Heaven. Jesus told him "one" thing you lack. It was only one thing he needed to do, but he refused. He said that he had observed all Ten Commandments, but that wasn't his problem. God knows our hearts and Jesus looked at his heart and said, one thing you lack, do this and you will have treasure in Heaven. This statement also agrees with you that you can't lose your salvation, how could you have treasure in Heaven if your not going to Heaven? But, it was only one thing, and that one thing he did not want to do. That's usually what it is with most of us, "one thing".

What is that "one thing" iron 2 iron? tell me what you think it is , and i'll tell you what I think it is.

 

[Rick Otto]

Well, the Bible disagrees. Paul's answer to the jailer was to "believe and you WILL BE SAVED". Believing is an action. And that is what we must do to be saved.

But Calvinists disagree. They think that "faith is a gift" is an action that God causes in us. Nope. No evidence at all from Scripture.

But Jesus gave God the credit for that action in John 6:29.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The best definition of faith in the Bible is where the Lord Himself tells the disciples what faith is. Luke 17:5-10, read carefully, it has been there for two thousand years but we have missed it.

I read Luke 17:5-7 very carefully several times - as I have many times before. I do not see the definition of faith in that passage.

Please show us where it is. Then show us why it is better than the Hebrews passage where it says, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1

Thanks!

 

[-57]

Well, the Bible disagrees. Paul's answer to the jailer was to "believe and you WILL BE SAVED". Believing is an action. And that is what we must do to be saved.

But Calvinists disagree. They think that "faith is a gift" is an action that God causes in us. Nope. No evidence at all from Scripture.

The bible tells us faith is a gift.
Eph 2:8 “By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.”

I asked the question above and nobody responded.

Why would one person want to come to God and the other not come?
Is it their IQ?
Where they were born?
How persuading the preacher was?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Pistis is the noun for Faith. Pisteuo is the verb form of ? are you interested in knowing something earth shattering about pisteuo fg2?

There isn't anything "earth shattering" about the noun and verb. And I've already explained the difference between them.

Was there something "earth shattering" that needs to be added to my explanation?

 

[Marvin Knox]

I was under the impression by approved you meant "saved".

I know my theology isn't 100% correct.

The word "approve" means to believe that something is good or acceptable.

As we stand before God "in Christ" we certainly are pronounced "acceptable".

But that does not mean that everything about our life is acceptable.

Certainly our sin is not acceptable - that goes without saying.

But beyond that - the Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God.

Men of old, just like us, may well have been saved. But it was their faith that allowed them to execute His will and gain His approval.

Like I said, the term "approved by God" cuts a very wide swath.

Entry into the Kingdom of God comes through simple faith in the justifying work of Christ at Calvary. But exercising authority in the Kingdom of God does not come automatically. That takes faith.

We can build ourselves up in faith so that we can better represent Christ on earth. Indeed we are command to do so.

We do that by praying in the Holy Spirit according to scripture.

But praying in the Holy Spirit assumes that we are saved and have the Holy Spirit in the first place.

Also it assumes that we know what "praying in the Holy Spirit" consists of. A great many in the church are ignorant of or just plain reject how one prays in the Holy Spirit scripturally. When we do not have - even what we thought we have will be taken from us.

To pray in the Spirit requires faith. That faith comes through study and acceptance of what the Word of God teaches concerning how it is done. Without that faith we will not please God and His Spirit will be grieved.

There is a lot more to "salvation" than just escaping Hell and making it to Heaven.

Anyone who has the Holy Spirit will escape Hell and make it to Heaven. But only those who please God by faith will live up to their full potential in the Kingdom of God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But Jesus gave God the credit for that action in John 6:29.

Not really. In the context, the Jews, who were works oriented, in that they thought that they would be saved by keeping the law, asked what were the works that God required to be saved.

Jn 6:28 - Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” NASB
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” NIV

Both translations indicate what God requires for salvation. And Jesus' answer is clear: to believe in Him.

So v.29 refers not to God's work but what God requires.

 

[Marvin Knox]

What difficult Marvin is the ones that are pro osas are half right and half wrong. And the anti osas are half right and half wrong. In our temporal world they would both be right and both be wrong, even at the same. The problem is ln Gods world is a half truth is error. therefore both pro and anti osas are wrong.

One is either saved forever after truly being saved or one is not saved forever after truly being saved.

Concerning this question - one group is right and one group is wrong. There is no logical possibility of anyone being half right concerning the question before us.

Now if you mean your argument to go to the question of whether everyone who professes Christ in some way is saved in the first place - that's a horse of an entirely different color.

 

[-57]

The word "approve" means to believe that something is good or acceptable.

As we stand before God "in Christ" we certainly are pronounced "acceptable".

But that does not mean that everything about our life is acceptable.

Certainly our sin is not acceptable - that goes without saying.

But beyond that - the Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God.

Men of old, just like us, may well have been saved. But it was their faith that allowed them to execute His will and gain His approval.

Like I said, the term "approved by God" cuts a very wide swath.

Entry into the Kingdom of God comes through simple faith in the justifying work of Christ at Calvary. But exercising authority in the Kingdom of God does not come automatically. That takes faith.

We can build ourselves up in faith so that we can better represent Christ on earth. Indeed we are command to do so.

We do that by praying in the Holy Spirit according to scripture.

But praying in the Holy Spirit assumes that we are saved and have the Holy Spirit in the first place.

Also it assumes that we know what "praying in the Holy Spirit" consists of. A great many in the church are ignorant of or just plain reject how one prays in the Holy Spirit scripturally. When we do not have - even what we though we have sill be taken from us.

To pray in the Spirit requires faith. That faith comes through study and acceptance of what the Word of God teaches concerning how it is done. Without that faith we will not please God and His Spirit will be grieved.

There is a lot more to "salvation" than just escaping Hell and making it to Heaven.

Anyone who has the Holy Spirit will escape Hell and make it to Heaven. But only those who please God by faith will live up to their full potential in the Kingdom of God.

Thanks for that clarification on your position.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
" Paul's answer to the jailer was to "believe and you WILL BE SAVED". Believing is an action. And that is what we must do to be saved.

But Calvinists disagree. They think that "faith is a gift" is an action that God causes in us. Nope. No evidence at all from Scripture."

The bible tells us faith is a gift.

And I agree. And I explained what that means.

Eph 2:8 “By grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.”

The phrase "this is not your own doing" refers to salvation, not the action of believing.

I asked the question above and nobody responded.

Why would one person want to come to God and the other not come?
Is it their IQ?
Where they were born?
How persuading the preacher was?

Not sure my answer will satisfy, as I've answered this for Calvinists many times, but it's no different than why people choose any other different things.

What people believe about a variety of things varies. And people change their minds about a lot of things they believe.

My sense is that Calvinists believe that regeneration precedes believing and is necessary in order for one to believe. But that is really nothing other than being pre-programmed, like a robot, or puppet. I know that Calvinists bristle at that, but if God chooses who to regenerate in order for them to believe, then that's exactly what it is.

People believe what they are convinced is true. Even when such things may obviously not be true. And people change their minds.

So, why some believe and others don't cannot be due to IQ differences. Or where they were born. btw, that reminds me. Paul told the Mars Hill Athenians that God is the One who places all humans when and WHERE He does so that they will seek Him.

Acts 17:26,27 - 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one ofus;

I do think that persuasion can be a factor. When one is persuaded, they will believe. Even King Agrippa acknowledged that.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Because generally it is the only good explanation. Sure some might just genuinely be in error. But once they have looked at the other side sufficiently there is no excuse for them not to see the truth. They will not keep on trying to argue against it over and over again until the end. They will realize they were wrong, repent, and walk in the light.

and that specifically affects salvation how?

 

[-57]

I said this:
" Paul's answer to the jailer was to "believe and you WILL BE SAVED". Believing is an action. And that is what we must do to be saved.

But Calvinists disagree. They think that "faith is a gift" is an action that God causes in us. Nope. No evidence at all from Scripture."

And I agree. And I explained what that means.


The phrase "this is not your own doing" refers to salvation, not the action of believing.


Not sure my answer will satisfy, as I've answered this for Calvinists many times, but it's no different than why people choose any other different things.

What people believe about a variety of things varies. And people change their minds about a lot of things they believe.

My sense is that Calvinists believe that regeneration precedes believing and is necessary in order for one to believe. But that is really nothing other than being pre-programmed, like a robot, or puppet. I know that Calvinists bristle at that, but if God chooses who to regenerate in order for them to believe, then that's exactly what it is.

People believe what they are convinced is true. Even when such things may obviously not be true. And people change their minds.

So, why some believe and others don't cannot be due to IQ differences. Or where they were born. btw, that reminds me. Paul told the Mars Hill Athenians that God is the One who places all humans when and WHERE He does so that they will seek Him.

Acts 17:26,27 - 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one ofus;

I do think that persuasion can be a factor. When one is persuaded, they will believe. Even King Agrippa acknowledged that.

I have to disagree with you. I hope you don't mind.

If it's your decision to believe....then you won't ever really believe.
But for the sake of the argument, lets say it is your decision....why would one make the decision? The answer is God is sovereign and has providence. You don't stumble on that decision on your own.

To answer Acts above, I still seek God. I would imagine so do you. I don't seek God for salvation but rather seek God to know Him better.
God found me and saved me. Why? I don't know. God renews your mind, quickens you...give you to Jesus. John 6:37 says: All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

 

[faither]

There isn't anything "earth shattering" about the noun and verb. And I've already explained the difference between them.

Was there something "earth shattering" that needs to be added to my explanation?

 

[faither]

There isn't anything "earth shattering" about the noun and verb. And I've already explained the difference between them.

Was there something "earth shattering" that needs to be added to my explanation?

yes, there accually is.

 

[bibledoctrine]

Matthew 10:22
[22] And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

The context of Matthew 24 is all about Israel, or Jacobs trouble, not direct doctrine to the church the Body of Christ saints

Matthew 24:13-16
[13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. [14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. [15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand [16] Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

The following Scripture are written to the Church, the Body of Christ after the resurrection of Christ Jesus revealed these truths to Paul:

2 Thessalonians 1:4-12
[4] So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [5] Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: [6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. [11] Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: [12] That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Extraneous]

Nope. We're saved by grace through faith in Christ. Biblical hope is confidence that we ARE saved. Not will be saved.

Acts 16:31 tells us how to be saved.

Isn't hope just another part of faith? Paul says that faith, love and hope are eternal. Why does it matter if i choose to hope? I hope because i want to be humble before God. I dont proclaim anything accept Jesus is Lord. He will Judge me. I hope in him. I hope in the cross. I don't really see how this is a bad thing.

 

[Rick Otto]

I have to disagree with you. I hope you don't mind.

If it's your decision to believe....then you won't ever really believe.
But for the sake of the argument, lets say it is your decision....why would one make the decision? The answer is God is sovereign and has providence. You don't stumble on that decision on your own.

To answer Acts above, I still seek God. I would imagine so do you. I don't seek God for salvation but rather seek God to know Him better.
God found me and saved me. Why? I don't know. God renews your mind, quickens you...give you to Jesus. John 6:37 says: All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

I believe the reason why is stated in Romans 9:22-23
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
People bristle at the thought of not having freedom of will in the matter, and confuse faith in general with saving faith. But the scriptures are pretty clear ( Eph1:4 ) that He chose whom to have mercy on, before creation.
Saving faith is what regeneration is for.

 

[-57]

I believe the reason why is stated in Romans 9:22-23
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
People bristle at the thought of not having freedom of will in the matter, and confuse faith in general with saving faith. But the scriptures are pretty clear ( Eph1:4 ) that He chose whom to have mercy on, before creation.
Saving faith is what regeneration is for.

I believe regeneration is first....if you have to draw some sort of logical timeline. In reality saving faith, the gift is given at the same moment regeneration occurs.

 

[faither]

I believe regeneration is first....if you have to draw some sort of logical timeline. In reality saving faith, the gift is given at the same moment regeneration occurs.

What about the parable of the sower ? where does that fit in ? 3 out of the 4 soils produce failure.