The Letter That Kills

[John Hyperspace]

In this verse: 2 Corinthians 3:6 what do you think is the "letter of the new testament" that kills? How does it kill?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

that verse is part of the larger context of the chapter talking about the mosaic law that condemns the sinner that is not in Christ living by the Spirit.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Chapter 3
1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we, as some, need commendatory letters to you, or commendatory ones from you?
2 You are our letter, having been inscribed in our hearts, being known and being read by all men,
3 it having been made plain that you are Messiah's letter, ministered by us, not having been inscribed by ink, but by the Spirit of the living Elohim, not
in tablets of stone, but in fleshly tablets of the heart.
4 And we have such confidence through Messiah toward Elohim;
5 not that we are sufficient of ourselves to reason out anything as being out of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of Elohim,
6 who also made us able ministers of the New Covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit. For the letter of the Torah punishes with death, but the Spirit makes alive *1.
7 Now if the ministration of death *2 as contained in the letter of the Torah and engraved on stones, was so glorious, so as that the sons of Israel could not look into "the face of Moses" because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was not lasting *3, (Ex. 34:34)
8 how much more the ministry of the Spirit will be in glory!
9 For if there be glory in the
ministration of condemnation, much more the ministration of righteousness4 shall exceed in glory.
10 Just as that which was not glorious has been made glorious, in comparison, this excels in glory.
11 For if that which was not lasting was glorious, much more glorious will be the thing which remains5.
12 Then having such hope, we conduct ourselves bravely.
13 And not as "Moses, who put a veil over his face," for the sons of Israel not to look at the fullness of the glory of the thing not lasting. (Ex. 34:35)
14 But their minds were blinded; for to this day, when the Old Contract is read, the same veil remains, and it is not known to them that the veil has been removed through Messiah.
15 But even to this day, whenever the books of Moses are read, the veil lies upon their hearts .
16 Nevertheless, whenever a man turns to YAHWEH, the veil is taken away.
17 Now YAHWEH is that Spirit; and where the Spirit of YAHWEH is, there is freedom7.



footnotes:
*1 The Torah teaches right from wrong but cannot change the heart, but through the New Covenant and the receiving of the Ruach H'Chodesh (Holy Spirit) ones heart is changed from enmity toward the Torah and mind of Yahweh, to being obedient and gives back life (Ro 8:6-11)
*2 It was the agreement about the contract or covenant that caused death because of the inability of the people to keep it and there was no avenue to have the penalty of your sins paid for. It was not the Torah that caused death as there are only blessings in scripture for obedience to the Torah.
*3 The shine that glowed on Mose's face when he came back with the 10 commandments, which was so bright he had to wear a veil over his face, also ended and Moses also died, but the glory of the New Covenant through the blood of Messiah to forgive sin and the receiving of the Holy Spirit for eternal life will go on forever. It is the difference in the covenant agreements that is being contrast here not the Torah as both covenant agreements contain obedience to the Torah (Heb 8:8-12).

 

[stuart lawrence]

In this verse: 2 Corinthians 3:6 what do you think is the "letter of the new testament" that kills? How does it kill?

that verse is part of the larger context of the chapter talking about the mosaic law that condemns the sinner that is not in Christ living by the Spirit.

In this verse: 2 Corinthians 3:6 what do you think is the "letter of the new testament" that kills? How does it kill?

If you tea the next verse Paul tells us the ministration of death was written on tablets of stone. The only law(letter) that was written on stone were the ten commandments.
Looking to the letter of those commands and trying to obey them to be justified in Gods sight kills/ condemns for those laws are often referred to ad the moral law, and it is that law, not the legalistic law that will always bring condemnation if you live under a righteousness of law.
It is depressing to hear so many say the way for a christian to attain heaven is to obey the ten commandments.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I've never heard anyone say this in decades,
and never on this forum
except people who like you say "it's so depressing/ sad/ whatever" ...

Can you quote anyone ?

It is depressing to hear so many say the way for a christian to attain heaven is to obey the ten commandments.

 

[John Hyperspace]

that verse is part of the larger context of the chapter talking about the mosaic law that condemns the sinner that is not in Christ living by the Spirit.

Is the Mosaic law then a part of the new testament? What does it mean when it says at verse 11 "that which is done away"? Is Paul speaking of the letter of the new testament, or, am I misunderstanding? He seems to be saying he is not a minister of the letter of the new testament. Is something of the new testament "done away"?

 

[John Hyperspace]

11 For if that which was not lasting was glorious, much more glorious will be the thing which remains5.

What part of the new testament is "not lasting" and what part is "the thing which remains"?

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Is the Mosaic law then a part of the new testament? What does it mean when it says at verse 11 "that which is done away"? Is Paul speaking of the letter of the new testament, or, am I misunderstanding? He seems to be saying he is not a minister of the letter of the new testament. Is something of the new testament "done away"?

that verse is again speaking of the mosaic law in that obedience to that law is no longer required for justification and that our justification is in Jesus Christ in that he obeyed the law perfectly on our behalf.

nothing in the "new testament" has been done away with. the "new testament" is that we live by the Spirit.

 

[John Hyperspace]

If you tea the next verse Paul tells us the ministration of death was written on tablets of stone. The only law(letter) that was written on stone were the ten commandments.
Looking to the letter of those commands and trying to obey them to be justified in Gods sight kills/ condemns for those laws are often referred to ad the moral law, and it is that law, not the legalistic law that will always bring condemnation if you live under a righteousness of law.
It is depressing to hear so many say the way for a christian to attain heaven is to obey the ten commandments.

Then is this what you believe Paul is speaking of here as "serving in oldness of letter" as opposed to "newness of spirit"?: Romans 7:6: that the one trying to serve the "letter of the commandments" is held in a state of death through condemnation of the letter?

I see at Romans 2:29 one who is "circumcised" according to the spirit, and not, the letter; so he has obeyed the commandment, yet, spiritually, and not, by the letter. Is obedience to the command that which is "done away" or is obedience to the "letter" that which is done away?

 

[stuart lawrence]

I've never heard anyone say this in decades,
and never on this forum
except people who like you say "it's so depressing/ sad/ whatever" ...

Can you quote anyone ?

Not on this specific website. However, I have asked many of various denominations what a christian must fo to attain heaven and the most common response is:
Obey the ten commandments.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Then is this what you believe Paul is speaking of here as "serving in oldness of letter" as opposed to "newness of spirit"?: Romans 7:6: that the one trying to serve the "letter of the commandments" is held in a state of death through condemnation of the letter?

I see at Romans 2:29 one who is "circumcised" according to the spirit, and not, the letter; so he has obeyed the commandment, yet, spiritually, and not, by the letter. Is obedience to the command that which is "done away" or is obedience to the "letter" that which is done away?

In romans 7:4-6 Paul stresses we must die to a law of righteousness in order to live for Christ.
He states in those verses sinful passions are aroused in us by the law if we live under it.
We are to follow after the spirit and not the written code*( law)

Which law is Paul referring to?
In the next five verses 7-11 he gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness. The example he gave was: Thou shalt not covet, which is one of the ten commandments

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

..moved to private forum..

 

[stuart lawrence]

In the TORAH, Old Testament, Psalms, Prophets, and New Testament,
everyone who did what was right (perhaps even the gentiles in Romans who did not have the TORAH) and was called righteous (by YHWH) obeyed the commandments and lived by faith.
Did YHWH call anyone who walked in darkness righteous (while they walked in darkness).


=====================================

Would you agree, God would consider people righteous, but they had no true righteousness of lawkeeping?

Do not bring your servant into judgement, for no one living I righteous before you psalms143:2

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

..

 

[stuart lawrence]

Not here I wouldn't - the WORD of YHWH is sharper than a two edged sword.

Those in Scripture YHWH called Righteous, all obeyed Him. When they sinned before or after that, they either repented or were called by YHWH unrighteous.

No one has ever been truly righteous under the law.
King David did not ultimately trust in a righteousness/ justification of lawkeeping for he said no was living was righteous before God.
David trusted I Gods unfailing love to attain heaven. He knew he was secure in Gods love for him, and he sought to obey out of love for God. That is the obedience God wants.
The expression of Gods unfailing love under the new covenant is Christ dying for our sins at calvary

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

..

 

[stuart lawrence]

Why did you even bring this up ?
Remember so far, and always,
whoever YHWH says is righteous is righteous, ("TRULY RIGHTEOUS") ,
and those ("TRULY RIGHTEOUS" ones) are the ones posted about so far in this topic/ context.

If a person could be truly righteous by obeying the law there would have been no need for Christ to die at Calvary.
To be truly righteous/ justified under the law requires perfect obedience of it. James2:10, Gal3:10&11

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

..

 

[stuart lawrence]

Now , again, you seem to be or are avoiding that YHWH called some in the OT and in the NT RIGHTEOUS (TRULY RIGHTEOUS as HE SAID IT)
and all the ones
YHWH CALLS RIGHTEOUS in SCRIPTURE obey HIM.
EVEN GENTILES !

I haven't ignored it at all. I have repeatedly responded to it.
If a person could be truly righteous/ justified under the old covenant by obeying the law, why did Jesus die at Calvary for our sin( transgression of the law)
What was the need?

 

[timewerx]

If you tea the next verse Paul tells us the ministration of death was written on tablets of stone. The only law(letter) that was written on stone were the ten commandments.

This is so confusing. Jesus in the Gospels upheld the Ten Commandments. He rather came to fulfill it and more.

And now you're saying, it's death according to Paul, remember it's Jesus whom Paul met in the desert. So are you saying Jesus changed His mind 180 degrees on the subject?

If we're talking of something else other than the 10 commandments then perhaps, I could agree but for other reasons like misinterpretations. The letter is death because it can be misinterpreted like the Bible.