"The least of these..."

[Open Heart]

Remember Jesus is the School master. Let the Holy Spirit guide you.
Matthew 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

What in the world does this story have to do with the Nazarite vow?

 

[Norbert L]

Thank you Norbert, for your response. Overall, are you saying that the country I live in's government has to be in charge of issuing the death penalty, not a messianic community?
And, could you explain the quote above some more? Thank you.

Yes earthly governments are in charge of and accountable to God for their laws, be they righteous or unjust. In my view the behavior between Daniel, his friends, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and Darius the Mede offer some good examples about how a messianic community should relate with the law of the land.

From what little I understand, Israel's legal system involved some form of seventy elders who would judge matters Numbers 11:16, the priests and the Lord Deuteronomy 19:16-17. It seems to me "the presence of the Lord" could have been seen as absent. So the people wanted to modify their legal system and how their nation was being ruled. We read about those laws in the OT, but what we don't have much of is their daily news, how they were responding (their mindset) towards those laws over time.

As a relative comparison, look at the USA at the beginning of the 20th century and then look at it in the beginning of the 21st century. We have a lot of info on that. When it comes to laws and how they implement them, that prior generation of a nation would think of this present as being unjust as much as this generation thinks of them being unjust in legal decisions. So who's right?

In my view, defining "the presence of the Lord" is something every generation confronts under the specific circumstances we live through. We don't have a full enough grasp of the social conditions thousands of years ago to fully see why such laws were inspired on the books so long ago.

 

[Open Heart]

Thank you Norbert, for your response. Overall, are you saying that the country I live in's government has to be in charge of issuing the death penalty, not a messianic community?
And, could you explain the quote above some more? Thank you.

Greg, I agree with Norbert that the death penalty is a civil matter for the government, not the religious community. In the time of the Israelites, the religious community WAS the government. That however has not been true for thousands of years and won't be true again until Christ returns. However, I have no problems with supporting the death penalty by my civil authorities.

 

[Lulav]

Hello,

My name is Greg Wilson, and I am a tentative sabbath-keeper, seeking to follow God wholly in everything, and there is a passage of scripture that I am concerned about, which is:

Hello Greg, Shalom! I don't know what others have responded to this so if it is redundant, please forgive.

--

Matthew 5:17-20, NASB :

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
--

So, in reference to the Law, Jesus says whoever keeps and teaches the least of the commandments shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. I want to be called great, not just to be called great, but to follow God in the whollest way possible.

That is a good passage to want to understand. As you probably know the Pharisees put their own laws or 'traditions' as equal to or most times when convenient, above G-ds laws. So if you keep G-ds laws as written you should do good.

But, if we were to follow the least of the commandments, (aka all of them!), that would include things like animal sacrifice, and stoning people for certain things. I would need to study the law better to understand these things.

No, because the punishments require a beit din and we, as believers do not have one. And there is no temple so no sacrifices can be offered for now, but the atonement has already been done.

In Hebrews, I know that it says "Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin." (Now that we're forgiven, we don't need a sacrifice for sin). So that seems to go against Jesus telling us to keep and teach the commandment to do sacrifice.

It does not, at the time he said that the Temple was still standing, but it hasn't been now for almost 2000 years and it needs to be to offer as He commanded. However it is mercy not sacrifice that G-d loves, Yeshua even taught that as well.

I desire mercy, not
sacrifice

go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.

If you practice mercy (loving others) then this is pleasing to G-d more than animals or produce.

How does this apparent contradiction get worked out, my fellow believers?

Also, would Jesus ever want a Messianic community to be started where discipline followed the laws about stoning, etc?

Thank you.

It is not a contradiction as you can see above. If people are raised up in the way he wants us to go and keep his commandments there is no need for stoning.






...>

 

[Norbert L]

In the time of the Israelites, the religious community WAS the government.

I think it would be more accurate to say the rulers of that "religious community" (where separation of state and religion overlap) were only one arm of that government. It's not like the ancient Israelites invented God as some ethereal presence for their convenience. Given the covenant that was made at Sinai, God was there and is there to this day, Acts 5:1-11.
It's just that people don't see a pillar of cloud or fire handing out verdicts. And even if we people could see such a thing happening before our very own eyes, there will still be persons like Korah and those that agree with him.

 

[pat34lee]

go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.

If you practice mercy (loving others) then this is pleasing to G-d more than animals or produce.

That is a call for doing things correctly, not halfheartedly. It does not give an excuse not to sacrifice.

Yeshua dealt with the same type of hypocrisy by the Pharisees in Luke 11:42

But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.​

 

[pinacled]

What in the world does this story have to do with the Nazarite vow?

Learning the Holy days is important to understand the scripture.
Also learning the Tabernacle.
Seek and you shall find.

Leviticus 16
17 And there shall be no man in the tent of meeting when he goeth in to make atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel.
יח וְיָצָא, אֶל-הַמִּזְבֵּחַ אֲשֶׁר לִפְנֵי-יְהוָה--וְכִפֶּר עָלָיו; וְלָקַח מִדַּם הַפָּר, וּמִדַּם הַשָּׂעִיר, וְנָתַן עַל-קַרְנוֹת הַמִּזְבֵּחַ, סָבִיב. 18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
יט וְהִזָּה עָלָיו מִן-הַדָּם בְּאֶצְבָּעוֹ, שֶׁבַע פְּעָמִים; וְטִהֲרוֹ וְקִדְּשׁוֹ, מִטֻּמְאֹת בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל. 19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleannesses of the children of Israel.
29 And it shall be a statute for ever unto you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and shall do no manner of work, the home-born, or the stranger that sojourneth among you.
ל כִּי-בַיּוֹם הַזֶּה יְכַפֵּר עֲלֵיכֶם, לְטַהֵר אֶתְכֶם: מִכֹּל, חַטֹּאתֵיכֶם, לִפְנֵי יְהוָה, תִּטְהָרוּ. 30 For on this day shall atonement be made for you, to cleanse you; from all your sins shall ye be clean before the LORD.
לא שַׁבַּת שַׁבָּתוֹן הִיא לָכֶם, וְעִנִּיתֶם אֶת-נַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶם--חֻקַּת, עוֹלָם. 31 It is a sabbath of solemn rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls; it is a statute for ever.

Judges 16
אֵלֶיהָ. 1 And Samson went to Gaza, and saw there a harlot, and went in unto her.
ב לַעַזָּתִים לֵאמֹר, בָּא שִׁמְשׁוֹן הֵנָּה, וַיָּסֹבּוּ וַיֶּאֶרְבוּ-לוֹ כָל-הַלַּיְלָה, בְּשַׁעַר הָעִיר; וַיִּתְחָרְשׁוּ כָל-הַלַּיְלָה לֵאמֹר, עַד-אוֹר הַבֹּקֶר וַהֲרַגְנֻהוּ. 2 [And it was told] the Gazites, saying: 'Samson is come hither.' And they compassed him in, and lay in wait for him all night in the gate of the city, and were quiet all the night, saying: 'Let be till morning light, then we will kill him.'
ג וַיִּשְׁכַּב שִׁמְשׁוֹן, עַד-חֲצִי הַלַּיְלָה, וַיָּקָם בַּחֲצִי הַלַּיְלָה וַיֶּאֱחֹז בְּדַלְתוֹת שַׁעַר-הָעִיר וּבִשְׁתֵּי הַמְּזֻזוֹת, וַיִּסָּעֵם עִם-הַבְּרִיחַ וַיָּשֶׂם עַל-כְּתֵפָיו; וַיַּעֲלֵם אֶל-רֹאשׁ הָהָר, אֲשֶׁר עַל-פְּנֵי חֶבְרוֹן. {פ} 3 And Samson lay till midnight, and arose at midnight, and laid hold of the doors of the gate of the city, and the two posts, and plucked them up, bar and all, and put them upon his shoulders, and carried them up to the top of the mountain that is before Hebron. {P}

 

[Open Heart]

Learning the Holy days is important to understand the scripture.

But has nothing to do with Nazarite vows. do you think you can quote something and then just write whatever you want? Sorry but you can't get away with that.

 

[Greg Wilson]

No, because the punishments require a beit din and we, as believers do not have one. And there is no temple so no sacrifices can be offered for now, but the atonement has already been done.

Thank you, Lulav, for your reply! So what is a beit din? From my knowledge of hebrew it means house of something.. And why does there have to be a temple to make sacrifices. Yes, thank God for Jesus' sacrifice.

 

[Greg Wilson]

Leviticus 16
17 And there shall be no man in the tent of meeting when he goeth in to make atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel.
יח וְיָצָא, אֶל-הַמִּזְבֵּחַ אֲשֶׁר לִפְנֵי-יְהוָה--וְכִפֶּר עָלָיו; וְלָקַח מִדַּם הַפָּר, וּמִדַּם הַשָּׂעִיר, וְנָתַן עַל-קַרְנוֹת הַמִּזְבֵּחַ, סָבִיב. 18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
יט וְהִזָּה עָלָיו מִן-הַדָּם בְּאֶצְבָּעוֹ, שֶׁבַע פְּעָמִים; וְטִהֲרוֹ וְקִדְּשׁוֹ, מִטֻּמְאֹת בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל. 19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleannesses of the children of Israel.
29 And it shall be a statute for ever unto you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and shall do no manner of work, the home-born, or the stranger that sojourneth among you.
ל כִּי-בַיּוֹם הַזֶּה יְכַפֵּר עֲלֵיכֶם, לְטַהֵר אֶתְכֶם: מִכֹּל, חַטֹּאתֵיכֶם, לִפְנֵי יְהוָה, תִּטְהָרוּ. 30 For on this day shall atonement be made for you, to cleanse you; from all your sins shall ye be clean before the LORD.
לא שַׁבַּת שַׁבָּתוֹן הִיא לָכֶם, וְעִנִּיתֶם אֶת-נַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶם--חֻקַּת, עוֹלָם. 31 It is a sabbath of solemn rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls; it is a statute for ever.

Judges 16
אֵלֶיהָ. 1 And Samson went to Gaza, and saw there a harlot, and went in unto her.
ב לַעַזָּתִים לֵאמֹר, בָּא שִׁמְשׁוֹן הֵנָּה, וַיָּסֹבּוּ וַיֶּאֶרְבוּ-לוֹ כָל-הַלַּיְלָה, בְּשַׁעַר הָעִיר; וַיִּתְחָרְשׁוּ כָל-הַלַּיְלָה לֵאמֹר, עַד-אוֹר הַבֹּקֶר וַהֲרַגְנֻהוּ. 2 [And it was told] the Gazites, saying: 'Samson is come hither.' And they compassed him in, and lay in wait for him all night in the gate of the city, and were quiet all the night, saying: 'Let be till morning light, then we will kill him.'
ג וַיִּשְׁכַּב שִׁמְשׁוֹן, עַד-חֲצִי הַלַּיְלָה, וַיָּקָם בַּחֲצִי הַלַּיְלָה וַיֶּאֱחֹז בְּדַלְתוֹת שַׁעַר-הָעִיר וּבִשְׁתֵּי הַמְּזֻזוֹת, וַיִּסָּעֵם עִם-הַבְּרִיחַ וַיָּשֶׂם עַל-כְּתֵפָיו; וַיַּעֲלֵם אֶל-רֹאשׁ הָהָר, אֲשֶׁר עַל-פְּנֵי חֶבְרוֹן. {פ} 3 And Samson lay till midnight, and arose at midnight, and laid hold of the doors of the gate of the city, and the two posts, and plucked them up, bar and all, and put them upon his shoulders, and carried them up to the top of the mountain that is before Hebron. {P}

Thank you , Pincaled. Yes, I need to learn more about the Holy Days. Feast of Tabernacles is coming up, and want to understand it better.

Is Leviticus 16 talking about the day of atonement? And then what is the significance of Judges 16?
Thank you.

 

[Lulav]

Thank you, Lulav, for your reply! So what is a beit din? From my knowledge of hebrew it means house of something.. And why does there have to be a temple to make sacrifices. Yes, thank God for Jesus' sacrifice.

Hi Greg, you are most welcome.

A Beit Din, as you surmised is a house, a house of judgement. It is where when one is accused of something they go and sit before the judges. In ancient times it was called the Sanhedrin which consisted of seventy men, equal to the seventy that Moses set over Israel to help him judge (do you remember the story of how his FIL came to him and said it was all too much on his shoulders alone?)

The Ancient Judaic Sanhedrin has been resurrected in Israel but is not ruling for all Jews in the country.

This can only happen when Religious government rule.

As far as the sacrifices go, I'm sure you know of Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc making sacrifices all over the place, but after they were formed into a nation the L-RD said that the sacrifices were to be in the place where he put his name. That place is Jerusalem.

 

[pinacled]

Thank you , Pincaled. Yes, I need to learn more about the Holy Days. Feast of Tabernacles is coming up, and want to understand it better.

Is Leviticus 16 talking about the day of atonement? And then what is the significance of Judges 16?
Thank you.

We are coming up on the the Trumpets first.

 

[visionary]

Exo 24:1 And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the LORD, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.

This is where the 70 elders comes from which the Beit Din of the Sanhedrin have. Sanhedrin consisted of seventy members and a president. Hence it is sometimes spoken of as the Sanhedrin of seventy-one . Just like the elders of old with Moses as their leader.

 

[visionary]

Thank you , Pincaled. Yes, I need to learn more about the Holy Days. Feast of Tabernacles is coming up, and want to understand it better.

Is Leviticus 16 talking about the day of atonement? And then what is the significance of Judges 16?
Thank you.

Feast of trumpets comes first. It has two witnesses that spot the new moon. That is why it is not known exactly when it starts. If it is cloudy and it is the next night that the witnesses spot the new moon, it starts then.

When I think of the two witnesses for the feast of trumpets, I also think about the two witnesses of Revelation.

 

[pat34lee]

Hi Greg, you are most welcome.

A Beit Din, as you surmised is a house, a house of judgement.

Who gave authority to the Rabbis? Rome, after the Hasmonean revolt. Moses chose the first judges. After that, presumably the cities where they lived would choose them. Nowhere does scripture make a political class to be the judges.

 

[visionary]

Who gave authority to the Rabbis? Rome, after the Hasmonean revolt. Moses chose the first judges. After that, presumably the cities where they lived would choose them. Nowhere does scripture make a political class to be the judges.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2154-authority-rabbinical

 

[Gregory Wilson]

Hi Greg, you are most welcome.

A Beit Din, as you surmised is a house, a house of judgement. It is where when one is accused of something they go and sit before the judges. In ancient times it was called the Sanhedrin which consisted of seventy men, equal to the seventy that Moses set over Israel to help him judge (do you remember the story of how his FIL came to him and said it was all too much on his shoulders alone?)

The Ancient Judaic Sanhedrin has been resurrected in Israel but is not ruling for all Jews in the country.

This can only happen when Religious government rule.

As far as the sacrifices go, I'm sure you know of Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc making sacrifices all over the place, but after they were formed into a nation the L-RD said that the sacrifices were to be in the place where he put his name. That place is Jerusalem.

Hello Lulav! This is the same Greg, but I had to make a new account because my previous one was through Facebook and it won't let me log in that way for some reason. Cool cool. So.. to summarize, we are waiting for the temple to be restored in Jerusalem and Jesus to judge before stoning could happen again, and before sacrifices would occur again?

Also, it seems Jesus modified some of the Law in His sermon on the mount, although He says that whoever keeps and teaches the least of the commandments of the law will be called greatest. How do you see the Law, and what are we to keep from it today, and what does not really apply? Thank you,

Greg

 

[BelieveTheWord]

Greg, you should be specific about what you think Yeshua was seemingly contradicting. Many times people simple don't understand the Torah side, or are intentionally trying to make it look like Yeshua was abolishing it.

 

[Gregory Wilson]

We are coming up on the the Trumpets first.

Oh, ok! When is Trumpets, and what is its significance to me?

 

[Gregory Wilson]

Exo 24:1 And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the LORD, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.

Hmmm, it says 70 OF the elders of Israel, as if there were more?