The Last Hundred Years, or so...

[Avid]

As far as I know, unbelief is unbelief. I know not whether it is a sin...

What is the standard for your belief system, and what does it say about this subject?

 

[Avid]

... God doesn't give you faith, He gives you salvation. Everyone has faith. Even little children have faith...

4. Salvation without regeneration
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[MWood]

Scriptural backing for your opinions has already been requested, so this is at least the SECOND person and the SECOND request. Please provide something from the scriptures that shows how you arrive at this doctrine.

John 3:18

 

[MWood]

What is the standard for your belief system, and what does it say about this subject?

My standard is the Holy Bible.

 

[Avid]

There is much more than the one verse in the Bible. It is important not to build so much on one verse, or one simple statement that is misunderstood by most people these days.

Many other verses, spoken by our LORD, and by those who followed Him, seem to shed light on what it means to believe, to have faith, to follow the LORD, etc. It is important not to minimize the significance of those verses.

The early evangelists (1st Century AD) emphasized REPENTANCE. Many great preachers since then have done this as well, but there is not much emphasis given to it over the last hundred years. That is something that concerned General William Booth of the Salvation Army 115 years ago.

There are many like these. This was written by the Apostle Peter:

II Peter 3
9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
​

The Apostle Paul said:

Acts 17
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
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Acts 26
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

II Corinthians 7
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
​

The Gospel of Luke, has these words from John the Baptist, the LORD Jesus Christ, and what he had written about what our LORD had said:

Luke 3
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Luke 5
32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 15
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 24
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
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[Renee Arisen]

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[Renee Arisen]

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[MWood]

There is much more than the one verse in the Bible. It is important not to build so much on one verse, or one simple statement that is misunderstood by most people these days.

Many other verses, spoken by our LORD, and by those who followed Him, seem to shed light on what it means to believe, to have faith, to follow the LORD, etc. It is important not to minimize the significance of those verses.

The early evangelists (1st Century AD) emphasized REPENTANCE. Many great preachers since then have done this as well, but there is not much emphasis given to it over the last hundred years. That is something that concerned General William Booth of the Salvation Army 115 years ago.

There are many like these. This was written by the Apostle Peter:

II Peter 3
9 ¶ The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
​

The Apostle Paul said:

Acts 17
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
​

Acts 26
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

II Corinthians 7
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
​

The Gospel of Luke, has these words from John the Baptist, the LORD Jesus Christ, and what he had written about what our LORD had said:

Luke 3
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Luke 5
32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 15
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Luke 24
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
​

We are talking about salvation. The only way to salvation is your belief. Nothing added to it. When we stand before the Judgment of Christ we will be judged according to our works. If our works get burned up we will remain in heaven even though as by fire. When we start adding things to gain salvation, we are twisting the truth of the Word.

As for repentance, everyone that believes that Jesus is the Son of God will repent of the sins that they know to be sin. But we all will sin and will continue to sin as long as we are in the flesh. This is the reason that Jesus had to shed His for all the sins of the world. So that the sins would not be a problem, or hold us back from God. Our worship of God is no longer about sin anymore, it is about the Son. Don't worry yourself about your sins. Focus on your witness for Jesus. When we are in Jesus He is also in us. We are ambassadors of Jesus, we need to go about our work as an ambassador and quit worrying about the things that we can do nothing about.

 

[MWood]

Mwood

On the question regarding unbelief...you say that you wonder if it is sin.

You declare that your source is the Bible and claim to accept what it says.

The Bible informs us: "Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (Hebrews 11:6).

The Bible tells us plainly that "unbelief is the unforgivable sin."
Unbelief calls God a "liar."

Unbelief is what caused the Israelites to forfeit entering into the promised land.

"And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief" (Hebrews 3:18-19).

"Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin" (Hebrews 3:12-13).

The scripture of Heb 11:6 says it all. Without FAITH it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God MUST BELIEVE that He is, and that he is a rewarder of those who seek Him. The key words here is faith, and believe. These are the truth of salvation. Faith to please God, and believe that He is, for salvation.

Unbelief is an unforgiveable sin, I don't find in scripture. Nor do I find that our unbelief is calling God a liar in scripture. We will get our just rewards for our unbelief.

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[Renee Arisen]

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[Avid]

... But we all will sin and will continue to sin as long as we are in the flesh...

You should give a scripture that backs up this belief.

 

[Avid]

... "Jesus said to His disciples, 'It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble'" (Luke 17:1-2). You will be held responsible for all those you led astray...

Our pastor used that passage in his sermon today. Thank you for your post.

 

[Avid]

Here are about 15 verses which show that faith is a gift...

Thanks for this very good reply, and the good list of scripture to back your point.

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[MWood]

Hi Mwood

You said, "Don't worry yourself about your sins. Focus on your witness for Jesus. When we are in Jesus He is also in us. We are ambassadors of Jesus, we need to go about our work as an ambassador and quit worrying about the things that we can do nothing about."

Yikes! Say what??? Let's clarify some things.

We had better worry about our sins and confess them and repent of them. Sin is serious to God. Our sins put His only begotten son on the cross.

If we have sin in our lives, we need to worry about them and get right with God.

"If we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries" (Hebrews 10:26-27).

"Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (1 John 3:7-9).

There is a heretical teaching called, "hyper-grace" which claims that all our sins past, present and future are paid for and covered -- no matter how we live. But, it presumes upon the grace and mercy of God as if God turns a blind eye to our behavior now.

To be clear: yes, our confessed & repented of sins are washed away.

But, salvation does not give us a blank check to live as we choose. In fact, authentic salvation causes us to choose NOT TO SIN.

If, Mwood, you are referring to past sins which the Holy Spirit has not yet brought to mind, then yes, we need not carry a false guilt and give Satan a club to beat us with. We can claim the blood of Jesus. Period.

But, we do not have God's "favor" in order that we might live lives as we please. As redeemed Children of God, we hate sin.

Before we were saved, we loved sin and jumped into it. But, after we are saved, we loathe sin. We may lapse into it, but we hate it and don't live there.

God says, "Be holy, for I am holy." He doesn't say, "I understand, you have a sin nature and you are just a sinner saved by grace. Do the best you can." No, He expects us to "put on the new man, created in Christ Jesus" and to "flee youthful lusts."

Our witness is tarnished by the degree to which we have unconfessed sin in our lives. We lose our power to live as authentic Christians if we just "name and claim it" but disregard what God has said. "Obedience is better than sacrifice" (1 Samuel 15:22).

Hyper-grace is a slippery slope. And, we quench the Holy Spirit by not listening to Him. He calls us to a life of holiness.

All that you have said is right and good. But, you have not yet accepted the fact that the shed blood on the Cross was for all the sins of the whole world, past, present, and future. There is no forgiving of sins without the shedding of blood. There is no blood that you or I can shed that will be acceptable to God. And Jesus will not shed His blood again. He has died once for the sins and He will not die anymore.

I have mentioned before, that as long as we are in this body of flesh we will sin, try as hard as we might we cannot escape sin. If we can strive to be perfect, and achieve perfection, as Jesus was perfect, then He would not have had to die on the Cross. But, that is impossible for flesh.

As for Hyper-grace, if you understood the Gospel of Grace that was revealed to the Apostle Paul, you would not think of it as a slippery slope, or hyper-grace. You would know the difference between the Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus and the Twelve were preaching, and the Gospel of Grace that was revealed to Paul by Jesus. They are as different as sand and soap. Paul is the Jew that God has chosen to be the Jewish Priest to go to the Gentiles since the Nation of Israel would not be the Nation of Priest that God told Moses He wanted.

Read and study this Gospel of Grace that Paul has written about. It will open your eyes to a whole new world of the complete truth of Gods word. Its not a slippery slope.

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[Avid]

...I am confused! Are you saying that there are two different gospels? One preached by Jesus and the disciples and another one preached by the apostle Paul who wrote 3/4 of the New Testament?

There can be only one true gospel, and all others therefore, are heresy by definition. So, either Jesus taught a false gospel or Paul taught a false gospel -- if I understand correctly what you are postulating. Which then is the true gospel?

Didn't Paul say that he preached Christ and Christ crucified and if he preached another, let him be accursed?

It may seem as if there are two Gospels, and it is ANOTHER Gospel, for certain, that is causing your concern. The idea of nothing being required of a seeking sinner may have a partial basis in the true Gospel. Let's be careful, though, not to base all of our doctrine on a few verses.

My concern is how there is so much in the scriptures that is ignored to maintain the position shown by MWood. Did God need to put all of it into every verse of scripture to keep the people from going too far afield? We need the whole testimony of God, or we seem to fall into holes along the way.

I mentioned the need for scriptural backing for various points, MWood. If there are verses that shed light on it beyond your simple points made here, they seem to be ignored in your doctrine.

People too often think Repentance and Sanctification are things done by the flesh, and they find it impossible. Thus, they conjecture some spiritualized version that defies all reason, whether worldly or scriptural. Let's not think God simply does everything for a sinner, requires nothing of the sinner, and some day, the elect will simply be in Heaven. Most people who hold this view seem to default back to enjoying the pleasures of the flesh.

Repentance is required before we get anywhere with God. It is the beginning and not an afterthought. We must seek God as they did when John the Baptist asked:

Luke 3
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then?
​

The FIRST thing we need to do is REPENT of our sins, and seek to be forgiven of our LORD for what we have done. Only then will saving faith be extended to us by the mercy and grace of our LORD Jesus Christ, and we can begin to do the things that bring us to fully trust & believe in Christ. This must be accompanied with the intent to NEVER do any of these sins again. Some say it is not possible, but you have cited scripture already that shows that is not true.

The truth is that we need to crucify the flesh by God's Holy Spirit. If we belong to God, and are converted through faith in His dear Son, His Holy Spirit works in our hearts many things as described in scripture. Sanctification is definitely one of those things.

Romans 8
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Galatians 5
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians 6
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Colossians 3
9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
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We need to put away the works of the flesh. If we continue to be dominated by our fallen human nature, we will get nowhere in dealing with God. That is a rebellious nature that is not interested in submitting to the authority of God.

The crucifixion of the flesh seems to be a daily thing according to the Apostle Paul.

Galatians 2
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I Corinthians 15
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
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More on this in a later post, but I made this too lengthy already...

 

[98cwitr]

These teachings come from contemporary evangelical movements. The are meant to invite everyone to Christ, and proclaim that simply believing the message will assure your salvation. Yet, even the devil and his demons believe...and they hate knowing. The truth is one must be reborn (John 3), carry their own cross (Mark 8), and put to death the sins of the flesh (Romans 7-8). MWood's comments continue to proclaim that we cannot overcome sin because we are still flesh, but this teaching is not true:

Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

1 John 4:4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

^^As you can see...those in Christ overcome the world.

1 John 5:18-20 New International Version (NIV)

18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. 19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one. 20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Lastly, all things are possible with God (Mark 10:27).

MWood, I know you are probably very set in your ways, but I am begging you to just take the time to look into what regeneration really means:

1 John 5:4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.

May we all be possessed, led, and under God's Sovereign reign. He will not forsake. He will not lead His sheep astray. He will protect them because He Loves them...and we will know His voice if we are in fact His.

 

[Avid]

So how do you reconcile God loving the unbeliever when faith comes from God? If He loved everyone, wouldnt He give faith to everyone?

I can't reconcile God in anything. God is God...

Interesting how this doctrine cannot be reconciled with what we know of God by His council to man, the BIBLE.

We need to reconcile OURSELVES, and our Teaching (Doctrine) to what God says. 98 was suggesting that the words of God, and our knowledge of Him, be reconciled with what we preach and teach so WE do not go astray.

I pray that EVERYONE seek the LORD and have their thoughts reconciled with His precious word.