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The Last Day

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Old Timer, Feb 6, 2014.

  1. Old Timer

    Old Timer Guest

    I have a question which is based upon John's gospel where he speaks of the resurrection on the last day.

    Is the Last Day the Day of the LORD?

    Would it be the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20?

    Is that what John means when he writes about the resurrection on the last day?

    Thanks for all your help in Christ Jesus,

    OT
     
  2. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum

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    I've never been all that clear but I think it's the day when Christ returns. God controls the earth from that day forward and while the Thousand year reign of Christ might be considered, or sometimes referred to in that way, I think it's the Parosia.

    I could pursue the subject if you like, depending on what your trying to nail down here.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
  3. Old Timer

    Old Timer Guest

    Hi Mark and thanks for your reply.

    My question concerns the resurrection of the dead. John's gospel appears to speak of the resurrection as being on the last day. Revelation 20 if taken literally (and I do believe that it is a literal thousand years) speaks of the first resurrection and then another resurrection after the thousand years are finished.

    So how can John say that it is the last day?

    One person told me that a day with the LORD is as a thousand years and that this is what the last day actually means, the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20.

    That's why I'm wondering if that's what the Day of the LORD means? I also wonder if that is the same as the Day of Jesus Christ?

    Just wondering about stuff like this. I realize that these are difficult things and so I hope that some people will share their thoughts on these things.

    I guess it makes sense to me that a Day with the LORD is a thousand years as this is biblical, I just wonder if that's what the majority of believers hold to today. It doesn't necessarily need to be the majority, but rather something that is valid amongst a fairly large group of Christians etc.

    Thanks again in Christ Jesus for all your help and thoughts on these things.

    OT
     
  4. coraline

    coraline New Member

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    The last verse in Daniel 12, records a promise given to Daniel about his own personal resurrection.
    Daniel 12:13 (NKJV) "But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days."
    The statements of verses 1, 7, 11, and 12 tie the resurrection to the time immediately following the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
    What Daniel had written was well ingrained into the thinking of the Jews. We see from Jesus' discussion with Martha that Martha had no doubt as to when the resurrection would be.
    John 11:23-24 (NKJV) Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
    Jesus taught that the resurrection would happen on the last day:
    John 6:39-40 (NKJV) "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
    John 6:44 (NKJV) "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    John 6:54 (NKJV) "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
    When is the last day? To the Jews, time was divided into two great periods, the Mosaic Age and the Messianic Age. The Messiah was viewed as one who would bring in a new world. The period of the Messiah was, therefore, correctly characterized by the Synagogue as "the world to come." All through the New Testament, we see two ages in contrast: "This age" and the "age to come."
    1 Peter 1:20 (NKJV) He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
    Jesus came during the last days of the age that was the Old Covenant age, the Jewish age. That age came to an end with the destruction of the temple in AD 70.
    Hebrews 1:1-2 (NKJV) God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
    Jesus was speaking in the last days. What last days? The last days of the Bible's "this age" -- the Old Covenant age. ~Pastor D. Curtis
     
  5. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum

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    The resurrection of believers happens when Christ returns. The judgment of unbelievers and the children of perdition and what I call, the undecided, doesn't happen for another thousand years:

    I'm not sure what you mean by 'last day':

    But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, (Rev. 20: 5-7)​

    That's when the Tribulation Saints are raised and traditionally the entire Church was thought to be raised at the same time with them. There are some really interesting questions that arise from the Dispensationalists view that the rapture of the Church happens seven years previously. But as far as the 'last day', I would have to see the context the expression is used in.

    It can mean that and a Thousand Years can mean a Thousand Years. There is an old adage, a text without a context is a pretext. If you are careful and look at the build up do and the flow from the text the Scriptures usually make it pretty clear what it means.

    It's the day Christ returns, the body of Christ is raised and the enemies of God are destroyed. It's just like in Genesis where it says day and it means an actual day. I'm not trying to be condescending but the way the expression is used in Scripture is determined is that the clear, literal meaning of the term is the meaning unless there is good reason to question it and in Revelations 20, there just isn't any.

    Oh I'm sure they will and there's a lot a person could learn from those kind of discussions. Just do your own thinking on it and every now and then bow your head and ask God for a little guidance, he is pretty God about helping believers understand the Scriptures. ;)

    A Day with the Lord is as a Thousand years simply means God doesn't change and whether it's a day or a thousand years with God it changes nothing:

    That's the passage brother, you really ought to have a look at it in it's natural context. Peter is telling believers, who are naturally anxious to see the return of Christ, aren't we all? Peter thought it would happen immediately following the resurrection, in fact the Apostles were heart broken to hear Jesus say he was leaving them in the Upper Room. As a matter of fact Peter didn't think Jesus even needed to go to the cross but Jesus called him Satan for saying it, Peter never brought it up again after that.

    Peter is telling believers that God isn't being slow, time itself is irrelevant. The Parosia (Appearing aka return) of Christ happens on the day God choose, not when we think it should because if it was up to us it would have been yesterday.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
  6. Old Timer

    Old Timer Guest

    Hi coraline and thank you for the reply.

    While I completely disagree that the resurrection happened in 70AD, I can understand that this was an important time in history.

    Forgive me if that's not what you're saying, but again, if it is then I completetly disagree.
     
  7. Old Timer

    Old Timer Guest

    I guess that's the problem I am trying to address here. How can John's gospel speak of the resurrection as happening on the last day if there are a thousand years between the two? John's gospel does appear to speak of both the resurrection of those who have done good and those who have done evil as taking place at the last day.



    I'm not sure that I do either. Is it a 24 hour day we are talking about or is it a thousand year day?
    See John chapters 5 and 6 where it speaks of the resurrection at the last day.

    Within the context of Rev 20 I would say that it appears to me that it is a literal thousand years. I've been told by some folks that the Day of the Lord is a thousand years, it's the last day, the day of his rest.

    That is what I often believed as well although I think that it means a thousand year day, and Genesis does have precedent pertaining to a day being a thousand years, because the LORD told Adam that he would die in that day when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He died like 900 years later, right?

    Yes, I certainly need to pray more about these things and ask the LORD although it's helpful to me to see how other believers see these things.

    I used to think that as well, now I'm not so sure. It looks to me that the word of God is speaking of a literal thousand years in Revelation 20, and I think that it is the last day.

    Peter speaks of the elements burning up with fervent heat in that day, and if you look at the end of Revelation 20, that happens at the end of the thousand years.

    Thanks again for your help Mark, it is much appreciated. I'm just trying to get these things right in my mind.
     
  8. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

    Yes.

    The last days began in the first century AD with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

    And the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Yes, that's what those scriptures in John mean.

    For in John 6:39-40 and John 12:48, the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera, G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (e.g. see the Greek of 2 Corinthians 6:2; 2 Peter 3:8, and John 8:56). John 6:39-48 and John 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Revelation 20:5).

    For when Jesus returns, only the church will be bodily resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the bodily resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be bodily resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

    *******

    Regarding "resurrection of those who have done good and those who have done evil", are you thinking of John 5:28-29? If so, it wasn't until later (cf. John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John that there will be two (still-unfulfilled) bodily resurrections separated by 1,000 years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future bodily resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a 1,000-year period (Revelation 20:5).

    Also, at both the first and 2nd resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life", while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the first resurrection, at Jesus' never-fulfilled 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the 2nd coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

    The 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment, those Christians (of all times) who will lose their salvation, and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), might be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

    That's right.

    Regarding 2 Peter 3:10-13, in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the first heaven: the sky, the atmosphere) and the earth (the surface of the earth) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, God the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the 3rd heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). But the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface. For the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his 2nd coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

    And after the 1,000 years, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least 7 more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' 2nd coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it's not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).
     
  9. Bible2

    Bible2 Guest

    The time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law ended not at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, but decades earlier, at the moment that Jesus died on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-51a) and abolished the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19), which was the same moment that he brought the New Covenant into effect (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17, Hebrews 10:19-20, Matthew 27:51a). So there was no transition period, no overlap at all (Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 7:12), between the time of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and the time of the New Covenant.

    Also, while the apostles asked Jesus about the end of the age (Matthew 24:3), note that he didn't tell them that the end of the age would occur at the destruction of the 2nd temple, or (as is sometimes claimed) before the future tribulation, or even at the end of the future tribulation, i.e. at his (post-tribulation) 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-31), or when the end of the age would occur, just as Jesus didn't tell the apostles many other things during his ministry (John 16:12). It wouldn't be until much later that Jesus would show the apostle John, through the vision in the book of Revelation (given about 95 AD: Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c), that the end of the age, when all the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matthew 13:40, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15), won't occur until over 1,000 years after Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:15).
     
  10. Old Timer

    Old Timer Guest

    Wow Bible2, this is like a full course meal! It will take me some time to digest this although thanks for the lengthy response.
     
  11. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum

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    Before I start sorting through the post I wanted to share something from the Vine's Dictionary:

    The phrases "the day of Christ," Philippians 1:10 ; 2:16 ; "the day of Jesus Christ," Philippians 1:6 ; "the day of the Lord Jesus Christ," 1 Corinthians 5:5 ; 2 Corinthians 1:14 ; "the day of our Lord Jesus Christ," 1 Corinthians 1:8 , denote the time of the Parousia of Christ with His saints, subsequent to the Rapture, 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17 . In 2 Peter 1:19 this is spoken of simply as "the day," (see DAY-STAR).

    From these the phrase "the day of the Lord" is to be distinguished; in the OT it had reference to a time of the victorious interposition by God for the overthrow of the foes of Israel, e.g., Isaiah 2:12 ; Amos 5:18 ; if Israel transgressed in the pride of their hearts, the Day of the Lord would be a time of darkness and judgment. For their foes, however, there would come "a great and terrible day of the Lord," Joel 2:31 ; Malachi 4:5 . That period, still future, will see the complete overthrow of gentile power and the establishment of Messiah's kingdom, Isaiah 13:9-11 ; 34:8 ; Daniel 2:34,44 ; Obadiah 1:15 ; cp. Isaiah 61:2 ; John 8:56 .

    In the NT "the day of the Lord" is mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:2 ; 2 Thessalonians 2:2 , RV, where the Apostle's warning is that the church at Thessalonica should not be deceived by thinking that "the Day of the Lord is now present." This period will not begin till the circumstances mentioned in verses 3 and 4 take place.

    For the eventual development of the Divine purposes in relation to the human race see 2 Peter 3:12 , "the Day of God." ​

    'Day of Christ' Vines Complete Expository Dictionary

    You had me right up till when you equivocated 'day' with the millennial kingdom. Highly speculative and pretty shacking Scripturally. Peter isn't talking about a day or a specific thousand year period, he is telling them that the eternal God counts them both the same, not that we can use the phrases interchangeably wherever we find them.

    The 'Day of Christ' isn't final judgment, it's inextricably linked to the Parosia of Christ at his return. The Scriptures, even the ones your using, speak expressly of this.

    And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:39, 40)​

    The 'last day' Christ raises the believer, that's at the Parosia at the end of the age before the Millennial kingdom starts. Clearly and unequivocally this is a single day, a specific event and one of the most important promises in the New Testament. How can you seriously tell me that it happens after the Millennial kingdom unless you think it takes him a thousand years to resurrect believers.

    Very true, no problems whatsoever.

    Indeed it can mean different things but that doesn't mean it can be interpreted any way you like. The determining factor is the immediate context and your not going to get the 'Day of Christ' to translate into the Thousand Year reign of Christ without brutally torturing the context those phrases and expressions are used in.

    Right, no question.

    Indeed, that's exactly right and well said I might add.

    A fine exposition and some incisive exegetical remarks as well. That's is right up until you used 2 Peter 3:8 as a proof text for the 'Day of Christ' being a thousand years because Peter isn't saying any such thing. You argued eloquently and forcefully for a solid doctrinal position any evangelical, Dispensationalist, Armenian, Calvinist or otherwise would be proud to stand on. Right up until you ripped Peter's words from their natural context and made them mean something Peter never intended.

    A text without a context is a pretext. Your argument, at the heart of the emphasis and at it's crucial point of reference is an irreparably non sequitur.

    Other then that, thanks for the exposition.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
  12. coraline

    coraline New Member

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    I accept your apology either way O.Timer!

    I replied to your O.P. because I saw you asked a question.

    I have found that many who would disagree with me do not understand what the Bible terms "the Resurrection." And some never care to open their mind, but rather argue, to anything beyond their usual traditional thinking either.

    Makes me wonder why any think of prophecy is even important in our lives besides the prophecies in the O.T. of the Messiah!
    What power is there in living for hundreds & thousands of years in the future?
    I say none. There is absolutely no power for living today hoping for a distant future. It makes one NOT live in the present- & thus makes all this rhetoric a waste of today's time.

    You can still disagree, but I believe the resurrection is & was spiritual.
    Here is a bit more for anyone to ponder:
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Paul spoke of the nearness of the resurrection in his day:
    Acts 24:15 (NKJV) "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be (mello -about to be) a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.
    If the TIME of the resurrection is seen as AD 70, then we know that the NATURE of the resurrection was spiritual, rather than physical. It is a fundamental fact of eschatology that TIME DEFINES NATURE. Since we know that the resurrection is past, we know that it was spiritual and not physical. The resurrection of the dead that took place at the end of the Old Covenant in AD 70 and was not a biological resurrection of dead decayed bodies, but a release from Sheol of all who had been waiting through the centuries to be reunited with God in the heavenly kingdom.
    We can see from the teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus several things about the resurrection beliefs of the early Christians.
    2 Timothy 2:17-18 (NKJV) And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.
    They must have believed that the resurrection would be spiritual in nature, and, therefore, not subject to confirmation by any physical evidence. If the early Christians had believed that the resurrection would involve the physical bodies coming out of the graves, as is taught today, Hymenaius and Philitus could never have convinced anyone that the resurrection had already happened.
    They also must have believed that life on earth would go on with no material change after the resurrection. They didn't believe that they would be on a renovated planet earth as a consequence of the resurrection. Otherwise, the teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus would have been impossible. No one would have paid any attention to them.
    The reason that their teaching that the resurrection has already happened was overthrowing the faith of some was that it postulated a consummation of the spiritual kingdom, while the earthly temple in Jerusalem still stood. This was a mixture of law and grace. This destroyed the faith of some by making the works of the law a part of the New Covenant.
    WAS CHRIST PHYSICALLY RESURRECTED?
    YES! Absolutely, without a doubt. Since Christ's resurrection was physical, won't ours be? NO! Christ's actual resurrection was His going to Hades and coming back out. When he was resurrected from Hades, He was raised into his original body, which was transformed into His heavenly form. This was done as a SIGN to the apostles that he had done what He had promised. The resurrection of Jesus' body verified for His disciples, the resurrection of His soul. David had prophesied:
    Psalms 16:10 (NKJV) For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
    Peter preached that David looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of Christ:
    Acts 2:31 (NKJV) "he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
    These verses speak of both spiritual death (the soul in hades) and physical death (decay of the flesh). Jesus was resurrected from both.
    The reason there are differences in the way we are raised and the way in which Christ was raised is because of those Biblically defined differences between Christ's body and ours. Differences such as:
    Christ is the only one who is both fully God and fully Man -- God incarnate. (John 1:1-18). Christ is the only one who was virgin born, and, therefore, born without original sin. (Rom. 3:21-26; 5:12-21; 7:4-11; etc.). Christ is the only one who ever lived a sinless life. (Heb. 4:15). Christ is the only one promised that his flesh would not suffer decay. (Acts 2:27,31).
    His human body was not subject to original sin, nor corruptible (i.e. He was "impeccable"), nor did He ever commit sin and become corrupted. Because of this, He could keep His selfsame body, whereas, we cannot.
    Unless Jesus' body had been resurrected, His disciples would have had no assurance that His soul had been to Hades and had been resurrected. The physical resurrection of Christ was essential to verify the spiritual, to which it was tied. While the physical resurrection of our bodies would have no point, since we will not continue living on this planet, breathing earth's oxygen, and eating earth's food after we die physically.
    WHAT HAPPENS TO US AT DEATH?
    Since the resurrection is past, what happens to believers when they die? Their physical body goes back to dust from which it came:
    Ecclesiastes 3:20 (NKJV) All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.
    And their spirit is united to their spiritual body and goes to be with the Lord.
    1 Corinthians 15:35-38 (NKJV) But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, YOU DO NOT SOW THAT BODY THAT SHALL BE, but mere grain; perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But GOD GIVES IT A BODY as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
    We get the same kind of body Christ has, but we do not get it the same way He got His, nor do we get our same physical body back like Christ did. We get a new spiritual body which arises out of the inner man. God gives us a spiritual body!
    1 Corinthians 15:44-46 (NKJV) It is sown a natural body, it is RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
    This affirms two different kinds of bodies. Our natural body dies, and we receive a spiritual body. Paul says, "IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY."
    Those of us who have trusted Christ in the New Covenant age, have life and do not need to be resurrected.
    John 11:25-26 (NKJV) Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
    Jesus is saying, "He who believes in me shall live (spiritually), even if he dies (physically), and everyone who lives (physically), and believes in Me, shall never die (spiritually)."
    Two categories of believers are discussed: those who would die before the resurrection and those who would not. For those who died under the Old Covenant, He was the Resurrection, but for those who lived into the days of the New Covenant, He is the Life.
    Under the New Covenant, there is no death, spiritually speaking:
    1 Corinthians 15:54-57 (NKJV) So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Revelation 21:4 (NKJV) "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; THERE SHALL BE NO MORE DEATH, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
    Where there is no death, there is no need of a resurrection. We have eternal life and can never die spiritually. Therefore, we don't need a resurrection. At death, we go immediately to heaven in our spiritual body.
    The resurrection was a one time event in which the Old Testament saints were brought out of Hades and finally overcame death to be with the Lord. We have put on immortality and will put on our immortal body when we die physically. As believers, we live in the presence of God, and in physical death, we simply drop the flesh and dwell only in the spiritual realm.~ Pastor D. Curtis, Berean Bible Church.
     
  13. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    It is the last day of the one week of millennial days assigned to this present creation, before the great Day, that eighth day, of the New Beginning which begins the eternal days that have no end.

    The beginning was the creation.
    Mid-week was the establishment of Israel.
    The end of the week began at the incarnation.

    The last day, itself, is the Sabbath of earth's millennial week of days, before the New beginning.

    This is only one of God's calendars for measuring time in this creation.
    He also counts 700 year weeks, as Enoch's dream visions show -and those are on a "stop" for being counted in this Chruch age.

    He also counts a Jubilee year as period of seven, seven year periods and one Sabbath after that as 50 weeks which make one Jubilee year, and has assigned 140 Jubilee years to this present creation, before the New Beginning..

    He may have other ways to count and measure time, and all like wheels within wheels, and the gears of the universal clock, but I am not aware of them at the moment.
     
  14. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum

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    I think I know what's going on here, your denying the bodily resurrection of believers.

    Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? (Co 15:12)​

    Nonsense, we are absent from the body and present with the Lord. At death the two are separated but in the resurrection they are reunited at the Parosia. We are given a resurrection body like Christ which is what happens when the believer is 'raised'.

    All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. (Ecclesiastes 3:20)​

    But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body. (I Cor. 15:35-38)​

    Not so fast, there is more to this passage then you are saying:

    Which clearly indicates that the body that had been reduced to dust under the curse is raised (resurrected) not replaced with some mystical spiritual body.

    That's simply not what the New Testament teaches:

    And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:23)​

    The redemption of our bodies in the resurrection is inextricably linked to the promise of the Gospel

    After that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:14)

    We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (I Thess. 4:14-16)​

    This is a commonly held belief among Theistic Evolutionists which is how I became acquainted with it. Like all of the Modernist rationalizations of traditional Christian theism it is argued vigorously in opposition to the clear teaching of the New Testament witness.

    The post has all the marks of a cut and paste, boilerplate argument that buries the erroneous doctrine in formatting tags and otherwise sound teachings. Then at the heart of the emphasis it drives home this hopelessly flawed attempt to deprecate and demean traditional Christian theism.

    I know what your doing and I'll be seeing you around.

    Have a nice day :wave:
    Mark
     
  15. coraline

    coraline New Member

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    Feeling too challenged mark?

    I'll take what the Bible teaches. You worship what tradition says.

    "Denying the 'bodily' resurrection of believers?"

    I think you have the flesh, the body and the resurrection all wrong.

    The church is the body of Christ, of which He is the head. Ephesians 1:22-23 says, “And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”


     
  16. Old Timer

    Old Timer Guest

    Thank you for your response yeshuasavedme. I've read some of your other posts and find them all pretty fascinating.

    With respect to this topic, it looks like there are some believers here who do see the last day as a thousand year day and not a 24 hour day.

    This would explain how the righteous and the unrighteous can be raised from the dead in the same day even though they're a thousand years apart.
     
    yeshuasavedme likes this.
  17. Old Timer

    Old Timer Guest

    You believe that disagreeing with you equates to not understanding the resurrection?

    I'll tell you what I do not understand, and that's the mindset which is overly obsessed with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70. Another thing which I don't understand is how some people can think that their own thinking or beliefs trumps all else?

    The Apostle Paul speaks of those of us who have the firstfruits of the Spirit and how that we are waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our bodies.

    I can't image how you're going to explain that except to think that you'll most likely tell me that I don't understand because I don't agree with you.
     
  18. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum

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    Exactly!

    And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:23)​

    Hardly

    I'm a little better versed then you might think and the longevity of this doctrine is due to it's Biblical foundation.

    That was the question.

    Still waiting for the actual argument.

    Of course.

    And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. (Ephesians 1:22-23)​

    Yes it does, so what? It also says:

    In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:13,14)​

    What is the redemption of the purchased possession?

    The redemption of the purchased possession - That is, till the time when body and soul are redeemed from all their miseries, and glorified in the kingdom on heaven.

    The redemption of the purchased possession - Απολυτρωσις της περιποιησεως is variously understood; and indeed the original is variously translated. Dr. Whitby has observed that the verb πεειποιειν signifies to save alive; and he refers the περιποιησις, here, to the redemption of the body from corruption, and to its final glorification with the soul. (Clark's Commentary on the Bible)​

    That's one commentator on the subject, here's another:

    Eph. 1:14. earnest—the first instalment paid as a pledge that the rest will follow (Ro 8:23; 2Co 1:22).

    until—rather, "Unto the redemption,"; joined thus, "ye were sealed (Eph 1:13) unto," that is, for the purpose of and against, the accomplishment of "the redemption," namely, not the redemption in its first stage, made by the blood of Christ, which secures our title, but, in its final completion, when the actual possession shall be ours, the full "redemption of the body" (Ro 8:23), as well as of the soul, from every infirmity (Eph 4:30). The deliverance of the creature (the body, and the whole visible creation) from the bondage of corruption, and from the usurping prince of this world, into the glorious liberty of the children of God (Ro 8:21-23; 2Pe 3:13). (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary)​

    And here are some more: Commentary Ephesians 1:14

    So you're being Biblical huh? Fine, let's see the proof texts and your defense of this Modernist interpretation.

    Have a nice day :wave:
    Mark
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
  19. coraline

    coraline New Member

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    Old Timer,

    The church is the body of Christ. Romans 8:23 doesn't say redemption of our "bodies"
    It says the redemption of our "body" not "bodies"

    I checked it out in the Greek.

    Here, I give you a bookmark to look at Romans 8:23 :)

    Online Greek Interlinear Bible
     
  20. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum

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    There is nothing in the context to indicate that the term 'body' is a reference to the body of Christ as the community of believers, on the contrary:

    adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body—from the grave: "not (be it observed) the deliverance of ourselves from the body, but the redemption of the body itself from the grave" [Bengel]. ​

    It is used throughout the Romans 8 passage to speak of the body of the believer in both the singular and plural form. I looked it up:

    Body (G4983 σῶμα sōma)

    And if Christ be in you, the body (G4983) is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Rom 8:10)

    But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies (G4983) by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom 8:11)

    For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, (G4983) ye shall live. (Rom 8:13)​

    Still think you're being Biblical?
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
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