The land of Israel, the land of God.

[ebedmelech]

Can you show me where he calls the Christian church "Israel"?

Check my siggy...

 

[Shocker]

Check my siggy...

Your siggy says "Them" AND to the Israel of God.

Who is the them?

That verse doesn't say Christians are "Israel".


You see, this has already been proven not to exist in scripture, its why I asked you.

There are no reference to Christians being referred to as Israel.

In fact, the Bible calls us "Christians"

Act_11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

 

[Old Timer]

And this of course is because the church of God is in Christ (CHRISTians) while Israel remains blinded in part (and cut off from the root) until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..

Some simply choose to ignore this and are therefore become as Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles) says...

 

[Shocker]

And this of course is because the church of God is in Christ (CHRISTians) while Israel remains blinded in part (and cut off from the root) until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..

Some simply choose to ignore this and are therefore become as Paul (the Apostle to the Gentiles) says...

Some who are black even consider themselves Israelites because of their skin color..

Heresy abounds..

 

[ebedmelech]

Your siggy says "Them" AND to the Israel of God.

Who is the them?

That verse doesn't say Christians are "Israel".


You see, this has already been proven not to exist in scripture, its why I asked you.

There are no reference to Christians being referred to as Israel.

In fact, the Bible calls us "Christians"

Act_11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Do you ever check context? Do you even know why Paul wrote Galatians? Here's your context:
12 Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Now think about why Paul said "THE Israel of God". Why didn't he just say Israel?

 

[Shocker]

Do you ever check context? Do you even know why Paul wrote Galatians? Here's your context:
12 Those who desire to make a good showing in the flesh try to compel you to be circumcised, simply so that they will not be persecuted for the cross of Christ.
13 For those who are circumcised do not even keep the Law themselves, but they desire to have you circumcised so that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Now think about why Paul said "THE Israel of God". Why didn't he just say Israel?

Mat_15:31 Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel.

This verse sure doesn't talk about Christians, the Church didn't exist yet..

Sure sounds to me like Israel is comprised of the Jews..


And since Im not Jewish, but rather, a Christian, Ill believe what God says..

 

[ebedmelech]

Mat_15:31 Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel.

This verse sure doesn't talk about Christians, the Church didn't exist yet..

Sure sounds to me like Israel is comprised of the Jews..


And since Im not Jewish, but rather, a Christian, Ill believe what God says..

Once again fundamental flaw...you're on the wrong side of the cross Shocker. Jesus was doing exactly what John 1:11 said. He came to His own (before the cross), and those who were His own (Israel), did not receive Him.

See Paul in Romans 9:6-26.

 

[Shocker]

Once again fundamental flaw...you're on the wrong side of the cross Shocker. Jesus was doing exactly what John 1:11 said. He came to His own (before the cross), and those who were His own (Israel), did not receive Him.

See Paul in Romans 9:6-26.

Israel is Israel, I am not "Israel"..

I am a Gentile who accepted Christ..

I am not a Jew.


You can spiritualize Israel and say I am part of Israel because I am now counted as the seed of abraham, but I am in fact a Christian.

Jews reject Christ, I don't..

 

[John S]

Israel is Israel, I am not "Israel"..

I am a Gentile who accepted Christ..

I am not a Jew.


You can spiritualize Israel and say I am part of Israel because I am now counted as the seed of abraham, but I am in fact a Christian.

Jews reject Christ, I don't..

You may not be Jewish and you are not Gentile. You are Israelite.

 

[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 86:

Shocker, there may be lots of difficulties ahead with communism ever so popular in the West, but it is not The Tribulation, which was the events of the DofJ in the 1st generation ("this generation will not pass til it sees all this").

The Antichrist will be a socialist, a believer in distributing the wealth (Daniel 11:24), but not necessarily to the extent of atheistic communism or the Christian communalism that was practiced by the early church (Acts 2:44-45, Acts 4:32 to 5:11).

Interplanner said in post 86:

Shocker, there may be lots of difficulties ahead with communism ever so popular in the West, but it is not The Tribulation, which was the events of the DofJ in the 1st generation ("this generation will not pass til it sees all this").

Note that Matthew 24:34 refers to the fulfillment of "all these things", all the events of the tribulation and Jesus' 2nd coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the church "immediately after" the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6), which events Jesus had just finished describing in Matthew 24:2-31, and which he would later show in great detail in Revelation chapters 6 to 19. Matthew 24:34 didn't mean the tribulation, 2nd coming and rapture would be fulfilled during the temporal generation alive at the time of Jesus' first coming, for none of those things was fulfilled during that temporal generation.

Instead, Matthew 24:34 could mean the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD reestablishment of Israel, which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32-34, Hosea 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Luke 13:6-9, Matthew 21:19,43), won't pass, i.e. won't die off completely, until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 19 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Psalms 90:10), or 120 years (Genesis 6:3).

This doesn't require the 2nd coming will occur right before, like one year before, that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming and rapture (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) will last 7 years (Daniel 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011 and won't have to be in 2021 or 2061 but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

Matthew 24:34 could also include the meaning that the figurative, all-times generation of the elect (Matthew 24:22, Luke 16:8b, Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4) won't pass away from the earth during the future tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, but that some of the elect will survive (Matthew 24:22) until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53) immediately after the tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

--

The rebudding of the fig tree (Matthew 24:32) can refer to the 1948 reestablishment of Israel, just as Jesus' cursing of the fig tree (Matthew 21:19) was symbolic of his curse on unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel (Matthew 21:43). The Israel that was reestablished in 1948 is the same Old Covenant Israel that Jesus cursed at his first coming. For it still rejects Jesus and still considers itself to be under the Old Covenant. This Israel merely "putting forth leaves" again (Matthew 24:32) in 1948 was nothing more than a restoration to what the fig tree in Matthew 21:19,43 had been before it was cursed forever by Jesus and then destroyed in 70 AD: a tree with leaves, but without any fruit. And the unbelieving, Old Covenant Israel that was reestablished in 1948 may never bear fruit. For it could be destroyed before Jesus' 2nd coming, during a future war, by a Baathist army, just as it had been destroyed in 70 AD by a Roman-empire army.

Interplanner said in post 86:

Shocker, there may be lots of difficulties ahead with communism ever so popular in the West, but it is not The Tribulation, which was the events of the DofJ in the 1st generation ("this generation will not pass til it sees all this").

Note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but (again) must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the end of Herod's temple building (also called the 2nd temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single 2nd temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple complex map insert in the December 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[Bible2]

ebedmelech said in post 95:

It was you citing Romans 11...and it is Romans 11 that says the Jews and Gentiles are grafted into ONE olive tree. That is how all Israel is saved...it is because (as Paul labors to demonstrate in his writings)...that the two groups become one.

That's right.

In Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It's the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning some of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28) but will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18) during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

*******

ebedmelech said in post 107:

See Paul in Romans 9:6-26.

Amen.

All genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

All believing Jews and all believing Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Gentiles in the church, along with all Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26) and some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27).

 

[Shocker]

You may not be Jewish and you are not Gentile. You are Israelite.

If you aren't a Jew, you can only be a Gentile.

But If I am Jewish, then..


Shalom!

 

[John S]

If you aren't a Jew, you can only be a Gentile.

But If I am Jewish, then..


Shalom!

As I previously stated, that is incorrect. You are Israelite - a brother of the Jews (Judah).

 

[ebedmelech]

If you aren't a Jew, you can only be a Gentile.

But If I am Jewish, then..


Shalom!

Well...let's look at a passage making that point. In doing so, one has to think about what the apostle Paul is inferring. That would be Ephesians 4:17:
17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
Paul's meaning in this passage can be missed if not thought about! Paul is saying to Gentile Christians, that they are no longer to walk as the "Gentiles" walk! Why?..because at their conversion, Spiritually they are the "Israel of God".

This is the point Paul was making in Romans 9 where there's an Israel "according to the flesh"...Paul is referring to ethnic Jews is saying that. However he also makes the point that "the children of the promise" are the children of God...Christ is the PROMISE!

This is why he made the point of who the "true Jew" is, earlier in Romans 2:28, 29!!!

 

[Shocker]

Man, you guys are hilarious!

 

[Shocker]

Well...let's look at a passage making that point. In doing so, one has to think about what the apostle Paul is inferring. That would be Ephesians 4:17:
17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
Paul's meaning in this passage can be missed if not thought about! Paul is saying to Gentile Christians, that they are no longer to walk as the "Gentiles" walk! Why?..because at their conversion, Spiritually they are the "Israel of God".

This is the point Paul was making in Romans 9 where there's an Israel "according to the flesh"...Paul is referring to ethnic Jews is saying that. However he also makes the point that "the children of the promise" are the children of God...Christ is the PROMISE!

This is why he made the point of who the "true Jew" is, earlier in Romans 2:28, 29!!!

Act_26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

1Pe_4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Act_11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.


You can keep calling yourself an Israelite, or a Jew..


Im good with being a Christian..