The intractable, insidious conflict between Islamism and the West

[nightflight]

And so there is no "just [something]" solution. The West and Islamism are trapped in a set of interlocking hostilities. European nations have found no sure way of integrating their large and growing Muslim populations, no way of making them part of the institutionalized bargains that underpin the Western order. Their societies are thus machines for creating alienation. Meanwhile, Islamic reformers have not found a way to make various strains of Islamism more liberal and tolerant in spirit while Islamic civilization remains marginal as a global geopolitical force. And the process of globalization, brought on by Western power, brings Western offenses to the Islamic world, and offended Muslims into the Western world.

http://theweek.com/articles/589175/intractable-insidious-conflict-between-islamism-west

Great article; really puts things into focus.

 

[patrick jane]

We need a final Crusade

 

[patrick jane]

2 Timothy 2:3-4

 

[farout]

http://theweek.com/articles/589175/intractable-insidious-conflict-between-islamism-west

Great article; really puts things into focus.

These type of discussions bring me to ask, has anyone really ever read the Qur'an? I own a Qur'an and have read a large part of it. How can anyone say the Qur'an teaches peace and love? Islam is at odds with Judaism and Christianity, and seeks those who believe in Yahweh their death. Muslims are told in the Qur'an that Christians and Jews are infidels, and as such we are the enemy of Allah.
With any type of talk or co-existence there must be mutual agreement to not harm one another, and to honor each other boundaries. So far in all history Muslims believe in conquering communities, cities, and whole countries. This is the main and only reason there is hostilities and distrust between the West and the Islamic religion.
I find it a difficult dilemma to trust Muslims serving in our government, knowing their utmost belief in the Qur'an for the guide in life, and how they are to treat others. I would like to know how others are dealing with these issues.

 

[mindlight]

http://theweek.com/articles/589175/intractable-insidious-conflict-between-islamism-west

Great article; really puts things into focus.

Yes it was interesting and perceptive concerning both the religious mind and the indifference and secularisation of the Wests own response to that.

I find myself mourning many of the decadent features of Western social liberalism:- the murder of the unborn, gay marriage- indeed the normalization of sex outside marriage and divorce, alcohol and drug abuse, blasphemy in the media , the celebration of false religions or no religions.

But I am not a Muslim and will not kill someone for these things. Indeed mindful of my own sins I pray for people and share my honest reactions in I hope a respectful manner. But the consequence- strong minded Christians can be ignored by those who really do not want to be bothered by The God squad.

Islam does not really give that option. The externality that is implicit in its religious devotion requires physical coercion to force the world to conform to its shape. While it also seeks inner transformation the actions and required devotions are clearly required tools to achieve that. A society earns its salvation by becoming more Islamic or it earns punishment by not. Paris in this respect is a punishment on a society that will not judge its own. They were doing us "a favour" by killing our decadents for us and by reminding us of the greater fear of hellfire and damnation should we fail to change our ways.

These world views have always been incompatible - anyone who has read the Koran knows that its own statements regarding there being no compulsion in religion are contradicted by the aggression of the text as a whole.

But it is also true that since the crusades Islam has been on a losing streak. Occasional recoveries as with the Mughals in India and the Ottomans cannot hide a broad trend of decline. Even as their numbers have grown their real power to oppress the rest of us has declined - except of course in their own playgrounds where the number of Christians has shrunk dramatically.

The fall of the Ottomans, the rise of Israel, massacres of Christians in Armenia and Greece and now Iraq and Syria. These are down and out bullies thwarted from their own global pretensions taking it out on the weakest and most vulnerable members of their societies and then attempting to export these chips on their shoulder to the wider world.

 

[farout]

Yes it was interesting and perceptive concerning both the religious mind and the indifference and secularisation of the Wests own response to that.

I find myself mourning many of the decadent features of Western social liberalism:- the murder of the unborn, gay marriage- indeed the normalization of sex outside marriage and divorce, alcohol and drug abuse, blasphemy in the media , the celebration of false religions or no religions.

But I am not a Muslim and will not kill someone for these things. Indeed mindful of my own sins I pray for people and share my honest reactions in I hope a respectful manner. But the consequence- strong minded Christians can be ignored by those who really do not want to be bothered by The God squad.

Islam does not really give that option. The externality that is implicit in its religious devotion requires physical coercion to force the world to conform to its shape. While it also seeks inner transformation the actions and required devotions are clearly required tools to achieve that. A society earns its salvation by becoming more Islamic or it earns punishment by not. Paris in this respect is a punishment on a society that will not judge its own. They were doing us "a favour" by killing our decadents for us and by reminding us of the greater fear of hellfire and damnation should we fail to change our ways.

These world views have always been incompatible - anyone who has read the Koran knows that its own statements regarding there being no compulsion in religion are contradicted by the aggression of the text as a whole.

But it is also true that since the crusades Islam has been on a losing streak. Occasional recoveries as with the Mughals in India and the Ottomans cannot hide a broad trend of decline. Even as their numbers have grown their real power to oppress the rest of us has declined - except of course in their own playgrounds where the number of Christians has shrunk dramatically.

The fall of the Ottomans, the rise of Israel, massacres of Christians in Armenia and Greece and now Iraq and Syria. These are down and out bullies thwarted from their own global pretensions taking it out on the weakest and most vulnerable members of their societies and then attempting to export these chips on their shoulder to the wider world.

What a wonderful response! Clearly you have the best insight, and ability to fully explain the reality of Islam. All to often people express, like a parrot, what they have heard on some news media. Seldom do I experience someone who has devoted themselves to actually reading the Qur'an. Reading the Qur'an was a difficult undertaking, because I lacked understanding of the culture and total history.

I often have business in a city with a large Mosque. There is chain book store there that has Qur'ans in many languages. I often encounter Muslims and never has there been and word exchanged, not even a hello. There is a purposeful turning away of their faces to avoid eye contact. It feels like I am being shunned. There is also a large Amish and Mennonite population here me as well. My wife and I are very close friends with a Mennonite couple, and we are aware of what shunning is all about. I have said all this so I can say I have some idea what it is like to live within different older cultures. Both the Mennonite and Islamic people have the isolation factor that beings curiosity by on lookers. By no means do I suggest that the two are similar other that they both want to separate themselves from the worldly people.

The Mosque I am aware of was not long ago found to be sending money to subversive groups in Iran. Clearly some of the leaders in Islam are attempting to infiltrate into our governments at all levels. The Islamic leaders open and blatant purpose is to over through and take control. With most people's idea of peace being "ignorance is bliss" and just "leave me alone" so they can keep living a uncaring materialistic life style. At least in the united States, real genuine Christianity has now become the enemy of education, and politically totally incorrect. Christians who do business by the "Book" (Bible) are in danger of being taken to court if they don't cater to the homosexual demands of the minority who has taken control. However, Islam has no tolerance for sexual perversion, and has resolutions for such behavior's that bring immediate change.

You are accurate in what you say about the features of the "decadent Western social liberalism". The World in general seems eager to adopt the materialistic sinful lifestyle. Our society is built on constantly needing more, being dissatisfied as soon as you get a "thing", that one thinks they must have, then having to get the next much better and improved "thing". The biggest industry that keeps the desire growing for the next "best and so much improved and better "thing" that you have to have, is....the automotive industry. Without being constantly dissatisfied with the "older model" and the "feeling" a person has to have the newest model, our country might slow down dramatically. That my friend is how materialism grows and grows. This is how much of the world so enviously desires to live. I see this as the dog chasing its tail.

When people become so neglected and basic needs seem like a luxury this breeds depression and hopelessness. Anyone who has no hope of having even the basic things of life like food, shelter, clean water, and access to health care. When people are deprived of the very basic things that life requires they will revolt and join any group the promises even the smallest amount of food. This is how I think some join ISIS.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

What does integrating muslims mean, please? On the ground at a practical leel, as well as in the heart at a cognitive level?

 

[farout]

What does integrating muslims mean, please? On the ground at a practical leel, as well as in the heart at a cognitive level?

Well for neither of these are easy to do. To integrate a Muslim into a community in which I live, and to show a Muslin the love of Jesus Christ is difficult. So let me tackle the cognitive first. I call the cognitive for conversation sake let me call that the heart, part of my soul or kind actions by choice. Assimilating someone into a new culture or group is not something that is predictable. On the practical level, I try when someone new is attempting to enter a group I am in, to be warn and open and accepting. The only group I am in is the church I am a member of and of course the Sunday School class I am in. So much is left to the person seeking to be a part of a group, attitude on both sides effects so much. For me my wife and I try to go out of our way to welcome people.

Now on the cognitive level that is an intrinsic decision based on making the purposeful choice to react with positive regard and kindness. As a follower of Jesus Christ that instills in me to go beyond what the average non-Christian would do. I try to analyze the whole person and see what the persons expectations of the person are. Often in a very short time if the person is in real need of something that comes to the surface of the conversation.

Having been a pastor I hope I can to see through the outward appearance into the real person behind the mask we all ware. Most people that visit out church assimilate very well. However we are a mostly white church, and we have had some people of color visit and I am sure they felt at ease and welcome. Again it always goes to attitude and openness on both sides. I hopw I have elaborated enough to give you some idea of the questions you asked.