The incompatibility of faith and doubt

[Mountain_Girl406]

I guess it depends on where you are coming from. If you're a believer but are struggling with an issue or teaching, while still comfortable with the big picture, knowing God and trusting Him, then you're in a different place to view the evidence than someone who simply knows of God and isn't yet sure if the God they've learned about is myth or truth.

Presumably we aren't walking into this forum without ever having heard of God or Jesus ever before in our lives (at least those of us who are Catholic; I don't want to insult our atheist visitors). In some way we already know God and trust in Him. It is not a perfect relationship for any of us, but we do have enough to trust and have faith in God.

I very specifically chose the example of a husband and wife for this reason. We would not expect someone to banish his doubts about some woman that he has just met and who is only dating for the first time. That is why I stressed that we do not seek a blind faith. For all of us who have faith, we have faith for a reason.

Trust and faith do not arise randomly out of nothing. But they do allow us to quell doubts that we would have if we did not trust and have faith.

Talk of "extraordinary claims" rarely is productive. Often it is used to introduce the phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," and it is almost always the case that "extraordinary claims" turns out to mean "things I find hard to believe" and "extraordinary evidence" means "more evidence than can possibly be produced." You have even noted that yourself: the claim that the man's wife is cheating on him is only "extraordinary" if he isn't already predisposed to believe it.

 

[Fantine]

It makes perfect sense to me. And don't you think that people at different steps on the spiritual plane could look at the scriptures and have them speak to their hearts in very different ways?

 

[Rhamiel]

And don't you think that people at different steps on the spiritual plane could look at the scriptures and have them speak to their hearts in very different ways?

one of the amazing things about scripture is how deep it is

but we can look at it as having objective and subjective meanings
so if we want to know the objective, we need to understand proper exegesis and Sacred Tradition

but if we understand that some of it is just subjective, then we can be more open to personal inspiration
as long as we do not put too much credit to our own musings

 

[benedictaoo]

But willfully entertaining doubts destroys faith. I have had many thoughts of doubt lately, but I reject them.

That needs to be repeated. And its what the Church tells us we must do. I think to willfully entertain them is a sin. Allowing oneself to go there is what destroys faith. I don't allow myself to go there either. If any aspect of my faith is lost I know it will be a dark, lonely, hopeless existence.

 

[WarriorAngel]

My only reservation with the way that's stated is that to "not fully agree with" would mean our assent is not really total. Assent means fully agreeing with the truths of revelation on the authority of God who reveals. If we don't fully agree with an article of faith, then we are doubting the divine authority. Or in other words, to not fully agree with truth is to not fully agree with Truth (God).

Matthew 21
[28] But what think you? A certain man had two sons; and coming to the first, he said: Son, go work today in my vineyard. [29] And he answering, said: I will not. But afterwards, being moved with repentance, he went. [30] And coming to the other, he said in like manner. And he answering, said: I go, Sir; and he went not.

[31] Which of the two did the father' s will? They say to him: The first. Jesus saith to them: Amen I say to you, that the publicans and the harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Believing in spite of doubt and submitting to His Will - while doubting - is repenting of disbelieve and doing it anyway.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

That needs to be repeated. And its what the Church tells us we must do. I think to willfully entertain them is a sin. Allowing oneself to go there is what destroys faith. I don't allow myself to go there either. If any aspect of my faith is lost I know it will be a dark, lonely, hopeless existence.

Doesn't that make it almost impossible though to witness to people of other faiths. especially non Christians? If faith means not allowing the brain to consider doubt, then we'd all be locked into the faith we were born into. A Muslim would be sinning by allowing himself to ponder whether or not his beliefs were true. If there's a one true faith, and it's our job in life to find it or else pay the consequences, we have to be willing to consider other options in search of the truth. And yes, some options are darker, but that's the thing about truth.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I guess it depends on where you are coming from. If you're a believer but are struggling with an issue or teaching, while still comfortable with the big picture, knowing God and trusting Him, then you're in a different place to view the evidence than someone who simply knows of God and isn't yet sure if the God they've learned about is myth or truth.

Trust is indeed a vital thing: 'Trust in the Lord, with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths' (Proverbs 3.5-6).

 

[benedictaoo]

Doesn't that make it almost impossible though to witness to people of other faiths. especially non Christians? If faith means not allowing the brain to consider doubt, then we'd all be locked into the faith we were born into. A Muslim would be sinning by allowing himself to ponder whether or not his beliefs were true. If there's a one true faith, and it's our job in life to find it or else pay the consequences, we have to be willing to consider other options in search of the truth. And yes, some options are darker, but that's the thing about truth.

It's a Christian biblical truth. Coming from the perspective, this IS the truth which is why you have to protect it. Like Paul say, do not let it be shipwrecked. You're looking at it as if this is all subjective, that everybody's truth is valid and actually true. Truth is objective and there is only one that is truth, it's a person, it's Jesus Christ, there is no other so when you learn this truth and discover it, let nothing destroy it, not even your own mind, because it is that precious.

 

[faroukfarouk]

It's a Christian biblical truth. Coming from the perspective, this IS the truth which is why you have to protect it. Like Paul say, do not let it be shipwrecked. You're looking at it as if this is all subjective, that everybody's truth is valid and actually true. Truth is objective and there is only one that is truth, it's a person, it's Jesus Christ, there is no other so when you learn this truth and discover it, let nothing destroy it, not even your own mind, because it is that precious.

Psalm 119.105 and John 17.17 are great verses.

 

[benedictaoo]

and there would be a great distinction between the Holy Spirit leading one to truth and not be able to doubt ones personal beliefs. Only by the Holy Spirit can anyone say Jesus is God. So a Muslim doubting and coming to Christ would truly be the Holy Spirit working and not their doubting intellectually.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

and there would be a great distinction between the Holy Spirit leading one to truth and not be able to doubt ones personal beliefs. Only by the Holy Spirit can anyone say Jesus is God. So a Muslim doubting and coming to Christ would truly be the Holy Spirit working and not their doubting intellectually.

Does the Holy Spirit come to everyone, and if so, how do you distinguish the Holy Spirit from your own thought process?

 

[faroukfarouk]

Does the Holy Spirit come to everyone, and if so, how do you distinguish the Holy Spirit from your own thought process?

Good question; I think the answer is firmly given in John chapter 3. The Lord Jesus Himself addresses the issue.

 

[benedictaoo]

Does the Holy Spirit come to everyone, and if so, how do you distinguish the Holy Spirit from your own thought process?

The reading at Mass today, You pray for the Holy Spirit.

11 What father among you, if his son asked for a fish, would hand him a snake?

12 Or if he asked for an egg, hand him a scorpion?

13 If you then, evil as you are, know how to give your children what is good, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!'

The Holy Spirit blows as He wills. He comes to whom ever He pleases. He can be both transit and sanctifying.

We give the gift of the Holy Spirit to our children when we baptize them. So in the baptized, we always have him.

The Holy Spirit is beyond our comprehension though. He truly blows as He wills. But if we pray for God to give Him to us, He will. There is a difference however in us being inspired and led by the HS and being sanctified by the HS.

 

[topcare]

I believe doubt can be healthy. It was doubt that lead me from being a Protestant to Catholic and doubt that lead me from being a Catholic in to a Liturgical Church. Now I never doubted who Christ was just different Churches and even now I am in the midst of doubts about just whom the true Church is and have post in two threads about it. For me the key is never entertaining doubts about Christ

 

[benedictaoo]

Yeah but you are IMO, are possiblybbeing attacked by the enemy. He reads us like a book, knows our weeknesses, knows what will get us to doubt. Knows what carrot to dangel. Some doubts can be healthy and that would lead to being confirmed in our faith and faith in the Catholic Church. To make it stronger. If its from the enemy wecwill be depressed, confused, uneasy. Yep, we must be able to discern all the spirits, our own, the evil one and the Holy Spirit. Bible says we have to test the spirits. If its our own spirit causing doubt the enemy will exploit that. We need to be able to discern what is the Holy Spirit from the others. The HS will never flip flop the way I sense you are doing. Never have us confused and uneasynor sad. We will have peace and joy but the enemy can simulate peace and joyso it's a battle, a war. Lord help us.

 

[benedictaoo]

Does the Holy Spirit come to everyone, and if so, how do you distinguish the Holy Spirit from your own thought process?

To answer more directly, we pray and look for the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Here's the neat part, we have Mother Church. If we are feeling led to believe something against what Mother Church tells us is true then we know is not the Holy Spirit leading us but our own or worse, the evil one. Of course we have to get to the place where we know the Church is true. If it helps, 99% of the time its our own spirit, mainly pride causing doubt or rebellion. But the evil one, he's happy and glorified when we blame him.

 

[benedictaoo]

And about faith in Christ as opposed to faith in His Church, look, if you are a strong Christian the devil knows how ridiculous it would be to get you to jump that ship but to have you believe there is another Church that's true or that all Churches are true... He really can get even the best of us there, "I haven't left Christ, just the Catholic Church... How many times have we heard that one? I think its the devils favorite. Schism and break always from the Church is all the devils work, IMO but for the innocent born into and those in those faiths, God still grants salvation and strong faith, so as usual the devils pride out smarts himself. Devil will never win, hes a already defeated enemy but he'll stupidity try anyway and if he can get someone to leave the Church he's satisfied. He's ultimately after God and uses us to get to Him, as if, but he tries.

 

[topcare]

Yeah but you are IMO, are possibly being attacked by the enemy.

I don't really think so. I never doubt Christ, just Churches. I want the truth even if it makes me or others uncomfortable. I don't equate Christ with the Catholic Church

 

[benedictaoo]

Just use the rules of thumb and test everything, discern the spirits.