The impossible ethic

tremble

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I found this online. There have been comments from several people that obedience to Jesus is not only impossible, but that it's actually wrong to even try to obey Jesus. I felt this article deals nicely with that issue.

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One of the arguments against trying to obey Jesus is that he created an impossible ethic, with the understanding that no one would be able to follow all of his instructions, and that he did this so that we would STOP trying, and just trust in God's grace to save us.

"What a cop-out!" I have always thought with regard to this sentiment. It seemed to be an obvious attempt to ignore everything that Jesus said. And I still feel that way about the second half of the proposition. However, I am coming to appreciate just how true the first half is. Jesus really did deliberately make rules that would at least appear to be impossible to follow. But in this article, I am going to look at WHY we think that the teachings of Jesus are "impossible" to follow. I will be tying it in with our ideas about what constitutes "success", and the role that death (or separation from all of the temporary props of this life) plays in drawing us closer to God, whether it be death to our possession, our reputations, or even to life itself.

Each of us has been steeped in system thinking, including assumptions about what constitutes success. When we encounter the teachings of Jesus, our natural inclination is to assess them in terms of whether or not they will help us to achieve at least some aspects of this "success". The prosperity gospel tells us that we can use the teachings of Jesus to get rich, while religious organisations commonly assume that Jesus and/or the Bible will give us something that will grow into an organisation or religion. Others will see it, and they will be drawn to it, and we will have successfully promoted the Christian message, the glory of God, the kingdom of heaven.

However, all of this assumes that the kingdom of heaven is a visible organisation, which I think is a fundamental error in determining what Jesus was all about.

Even in developing our own individual lives, most of us want to find something in the Bible that will make us pillars of society, people whom others will respect and honour. If we discover that trying to obey Jesus not only tears this down, but brings risk to our very existence on the Planet, then we assume that what he said was "impossible". What we find most difficult to accept, despite it being clearly included in the instructions, is that he may actually WANT us to be wiped out personally and corporately, so that something better, something invisible, something more spiritual might come out of the ashes.

I will now incorporate a thought that could have been an article in itself. It has to do with the saying "No good deed ever goes unpunished." That cynical saying is far more true than most of us laughingly believe when we say it. The problem is that we are surrounded by examples of "good deeds" that are rewarded and not punished. This seems to be a contradiction. And yet the contradiction only comes because we have falsely believed that much of what happens around us is "good deeds".

Jesus said that if we let anyone see our good deeds, and praise us for them, then there is no reward for us in heaven, because we have already received our reward here on earth. I have found that it is almost impossible for me to do something good without secretly wishing that someone would discover it (and usually what we wish for, we get, sooner or later), simply because my natural mind assumes that, if they see what I have done, they will think more highly of me. (And they will, of course, if they can be convinced that I am just as selfish as them, even when I appear to be doing good.)

Only to the extent that we genuinely want to keep our deeds secret between ourselves and God, do we actually build God's secret little invisible kingdom, and if others sense that we are trying to do that, THEN the "punishment" starts. Most obvious good deeds are not punished, because they are all a part of the hypocritical facade that is held together by everyone's selfish attempts to buy a good image. This would be true of the bulk of charitable work and donations.

I don't think it's black and white. I think there are pockets of genuine good intent in some of the most blatant shows of "goodness", like the widow who sneaked her last mite into the offering box while the Pharisees made a show of their generosity. But I do believe that the more pure our motives are, the more persecution they will bring on us.

To go further with this "impossible" ethic, consider other aspects of the teachings of Jesus. He told us to give to everyone who asks. What would happen if we did that? We would more or less be asked for everything that we own, by the first person who picked up that we really were willing to give them anything they asked for. I have not met anyone who was willing to do that... including myself. But is the rule impossible? No, of course not. It's just that we are not prepared to let go of everything to that extent.

Certainly if I WERE prepared to do that, and could plan for the day when I would do it, I would quickly sneak past those whom I felt were undeserving, and I would give it all to those whom I see as genuinely needy before the others could take it from me by invoking the "give to those who ask" clause. Even Jesus seemed to recognise this when he said to SELL what we have, and then give to the poor. But either way, he was talking about us losing everything, and that is what blocks most of us from being able to acknowledge that what he taught was not impossible.

Even with regard to the good works mentioned earlier, there seems to be a dual truth that Jesus taught, which appears at first glance to be a contradiction. In his Sermon on the Mount, he said to let our light shine so that others would see our good works and glorify our Father who is in heaven. How does that fit with instructions about us hiding our good works?

I believe the consistency comes from people not seeing us, but rather seeing the good work. When that happens, they cannot glorify us, because they don't know that we were the ones who did it. They can only glorify our Father in heaven. In fact, the verse about letting our light shine came right after Jesus had spoken for four verses about the persecution that awaits true "prophets". While we are persecuted and misunderstood, God's invisible kingdom grows behind the scenes.

It's something like death. We are never closer to God than when we are staring death in the face. Most of our lives are so far away from that, that "God" just becomes a word, even to those of us who would like it to be so much more. Though we know that death is out there, facing us all, we spend virtually our whole lives either ignoring it, or believing that we can do things which will delay it indefinitely. Yet Jesus seemed to be teaching things that would bring us closer to such death, even if it is just the death of our good reputations. Cast adrift from all the props of society, we find ourselves drawn closer to God.

So we have seen that the so-called "impossible" ethic is quite possible, but only when one accepts that it is not going to "succeed" in any of the ways that we have been conditioned to think of success. We have seen that there are counterfeits of Christian ethics (e.g. charity given for show) which can be linked with worldly success, but that genuine goodness leads to persecution and failure in the eyes of the world. And we have seen that the genuine and the false are often mixed together, whether it be within an organisation or within each of us as individuals. Only God knows how much is genuine. Finally, I have compared this impossible ethic to death, where God is glorified best as we cease to exist. He is ultimately glorified only to the extent that we let go of all our hopes of success.

Consequently, what started out sounding impossible is really only improbable, and that is because there is so much of the "world" still stuck in our own thinking, which stops us from stepping out in faith.
 

peterandrewj

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Lots of people believe in God or Jesus and have no proof, no relationship...

This article could have been written by someone practicing religion, by someone unsaved, even by an atheist.

The impossible ethic would be logical from the standpoint of one in the world, knowing life only in the flesh.

All we are commanded to do is possible with God, but impossible with man. And success means growing up into Christ

(Maybe I read it wrong)
 
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tremble

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This article could have been written by someone practicing religion, by someone unsaved, even by an atheist.
I could say the same thing about what you've written. We could all say what "could" have motivated people to write what they write.

Can you be more specific about your concerns? Why did you feel it necessary to suggest that an article promoting obedience to Jesus "could" have been written by an atheist? Does that really make sense to you?

All we are commanded to do is possible with God, but impossible with man. And success means growing up into Christ
If it's only possible with God, and God sent Jesus, and Jesus told us what he wants us to do, then God will make it possible for us to obey his messenger.

On the other hand, for people who are really not interested in doing what Jesus told us to do, the "impossible" ethic becomes a very tempting strategy to confuse the issues.
 
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BryanW92

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Can you be more specific about your concerns? Why did you feel it necessary to suggest that an article promoting obedience to Jesus "could" have been written by an atheist? Does that really make sense to you?

Probably not an atheist, but it could have been written by a muslim. Muslims believe that allah understands the "natural man" and that he accepts his followers with their sins as long as their works are sufficient to overcome their sins.

They believe that one of the blasphemies of Christians is that they think that God demands that we become sinless and that the great Prophet Jesus never said that he would take away their sins. Muslims believe that the Prophet Jesus came with the same message as Mohammed, but early Christians tried to make him into a deity with their stories of the death and resurrection and ascension. Muslims believe that Christians should follow the teachings of the Prophet Jesus to the letter as a means of having their works outnumber their sins so that allah will judge them to be righteous at death. They believe that the Prophet Jesus will return to smite the Christians who do not follow his teachings of works overcoming sin.

Cults like the Jesus Christians and many Progressive Christians are in fundamental agreement with the muslims on this.
 
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tremble

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Do you have anything to contribute to the topic, Steeno? Over on another thread you made it clear that you felt obedience to Jesus was not only impossible, but wrong and you appeared to base that opinion on some rather convoluted explanations about how grace means we don't have to obey. You compared our saviours' expectations to legalism and declined to comment on the verses I posted where Jesus clearly explains the need for obedience from his servants.
 
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Steeno7

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Do you have anything to contribute to the topic, Steeno? Over on another thread you made it clear that you felt obedience to Jesus was not only impossible, but wrong and you appeared to base that opinion on some rather convoluted explanations about how grace means we don't have to obey. You compared our saviours' expectations to legalism and declined to comment on the verses I posted where Jesus clearly explains the need for obedience from his servants.

I found this online.

Cult Education - Cult Education Institute :: Group Information Archives
 
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BryanW92

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I found this online. There have been comments from several people that obedience to Jesus is not only impossible, but that it's actually wrong to even try to obey Jesus. I felt this article deals nicely with that issue.

Oh wow. Look where I found the article!

The "Impossible" Ethic

www.[B]jesuschristians[/B].com/recent-articles/807-the-qimpossibleq-ethic-?catid=18%3Adeep-thoughts-recent-articles

No wonder you didn't want to give credit to the author or cite the source! You fooled a few Tremble, but now we know for sure what you represent.
 
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tremble

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I have reported these abusive posts. I am not Muslim nor am I promoting Islam. I am also not a part of the Jesus Christians group but it really should not matter what church I go to because I am not promoting any organization. The topic is about the teachings of Jesus. That is clearly stated in the OP. Please do not try to confuse the issues by making this about individuals.
 
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BryanW92

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I have reported these abusive posts. I am not Muslim nor am I promoting Islam. I am also not a part of the Jesus Christians group but it really should not matter what church I go to because I am not promoting any organization. The topic is about the teachings of Jesus. That is clearly stated in the OP. Please do not try to confuse the issues by making this about individuals.

I didn't say that you are muslim or promoting islam. I told you what they believe and how that is very similar to what you believe only with regards to Jesus and his teachings. They believe it because Mohammed copied the same ideas that you find in the bible. You both came to the same conclusion from the same source, but you are certainly NOT a muslim.

The author of that article is a Jesus Christian, so its not abusive at all. It is a clarification since you failed to cite the work that you were plagiarizing. I did thoughtfully locate the article and I cited it so that others could read it in context.

http://www.plagiarism.org/citing-sources/cite-sources/
 
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Steeno7

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peterandrewj

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Can you be more specific about your concerns? Why did you feel it necessary to suggest that an article promoting obedience to Jesus "could" have been written by an atheist? Does that really make sense to you?.


You provided the article as a response to some who felt grace was given where obedience was impossible, and the answer was to redefine success of what appears otherwise impossible.

I don't want to debate a third party's idea, but if its your position I'd be happy to discuss.

It uses two commandments the writer feels are in conflict: not doing works to be seen of men, and men seeing your good works by which they may glorify our Father in heaven. Although the interpretation and premise is flawed, it suggests Jesus did it deliberately to force us to have a new perspective on success which is achieved by the punishment and persecution from the attempt at obedience.

So it's not the obedience but the result of it by which success is judged.

Tell me if you feel I've misread the article, but I think its a complete misrepresentation along the lines I've heard in debates between atheists and religious practitioners.
 
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tremble

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You provided the article as a response to some who felt grace was given where obedience was impossible,

Yes. Can you see how it is a problem to view grace as an alternative to obedience? This is what the "impossible" argument always ends up doing. People make it sound spiritual but it's not. It's just an excuse to disregard standards which we feel are inconvenient.

and the answer was to redefine success of what appears otherwise impossible.

i'm not sure who's answer you are referring to here? Jesus' answer, or the impossibles answer?

I don't want to debate a third party's idea, but if its your position I'd be happy to discuss.

I definitely believe we should obey Jesus. He made that so clear, I still struggle to understand how people can even make the argument, unless they've seared their conscience to do so.

It uses two commandments the writer feels are in conflict: not doing works to be seen of men, and men seeing your good works by which they may glorify our Father in heaven.

He said they appeared to be contradictory, but that there is an explanation for how they are not.

Although the interpretation and premise is flawed,

Is there any reason why you do not say what the flaw is?

it suggests Jesus did it deliberately to force us to have a new perspective on success which is achieved by the punishment and persecution from the attempt at obedience.

Spiritual success is not achieved through punishment or persecution, but persecution can be a sign of spiritual success. When Judas went off to betray Jesus, Jesus said, "now is the son of man glorified". Jesus also told us that when people persecute us, and treat us spitefully and say false things about us when we promote his teachings that we should be happy, because it means we're in the same boat with the prophets of the past who were persecuted for their faith.

I've been doing a lot of celebrating in the past few weeks. ^.^

So it's not the obedience but the result of it by which success is judged.

Why not both?

Tell me if you feel I've misread the article, but I think its a complete misrepresentation along the lines I've heard in debates between atheists and religious practitioners.

Can you give any examples of how an article promoting obedience to Jesus is "along the lines" of what atheists debate about? What are you even trying to say here?
 
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peterandrewj

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Can you give any examples of how an article promoting obedience to Jesus is "along the lines" of what atheists debate about? What are you even trying to say here?

I think it speaks of obedience in a legalistic manner. Our obedience is to the faith, to the gospel, to the truth, the effects of which produce the good works that glorify God.

Faith without works is dead, which means we must follow Jesus, we must be baptized, we must accept the old man is dead.....to see the glory of Christ in our life and be changed into the same glory. This is how one dies to the flesh, and not as the article claims through persecution and punishment from good deeds.

There's nothing in the article that supports the doctrine of Christ, by which we are brought in line with all the commandments. All the article is doing is trying to figure out what the commandments mean and how to obey it.

I hear the same things from atheists looking to discredit the bible. I can’t give credence to such opinions under the guise of obedience, even if it came from a Pharisee.
 
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tremble

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I think it speaks of obedience in a legalistic manner.
Can you quote a specific example from the article to support your opinion?

There's nothing in the article that supports the doctrine of Christ, by which we are brought in line with all the commandments. All the article is doing is trying to figure out what the commandments mean and how to obey it.
Soooo, you're saying the article is trying to figure out what Jesus' teachings mean and how to apply those teachings, but you think that has nothing to do with what Jesus taught to his followers?

I hear the same things from atheists looking to discredit the bible.
Can you point me to these atheist who are trying to figure out what Jesus' teachings mean and how to obey them? Ya know, the ones who teach that it's not impossible to obey Jesus? I'm very keen to talk to them.
 
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