The illusion of free will
- Thread starter ShiningBecky
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I agree God does not control everything. He allows us to make choices including choices to love or not love others. If God is chosing for us to be evil, then God is evil and not good.
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GrayAngel
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Like I said, there is no logical alternative. Each person is formed by two forces of reality: nature and nurture. Neither of these things are things we chose for ourselves. If we could choose them for ourselves, then we'd already exist and have some means to form an opinion to make our choice, and we wouldn't have to make the choice anyway.
God gave us nature, having created everything that exists. Your genes come from your parents biologically, but God purposefully placed your parents together in just the right time and place so that you would be formed. God is responsible for the knitting of us in our mother's womb. It was not an accident. God create every detail of us with a purpose, like an artist painting a scene.
The only thing left is nurture. God is responsible for this too. He created your parents, your friends, and your enemies, and He knew everything they would do as a result of His design.
Does He cause us to sin? No. But He designs us with certain weaknesses, knowing what we'd do with them. He doesn't tempt us Himself, but He created Satan, the author of confusion.
God doesn't have to micromanage our lives. He created the track and He created the train. The train will follow the track. I even have reason to believe that the Ten Plagues on Egypt could have been natural occurrences timed by God.
Sometimes, however, God will step in to make adjustments. The salvation of the elect are some of those times. Without God, we are dead in our sin, and we have no hope. We cannot save ourselves, but God can step in and breathe life into us.
Even if we had free will, God could still do everything Himself. Take away free will, this doesn't change. What's the point of living with free will? To please God with our lives. What's the point of living without free will? To please God with our lives.
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GrayAngel
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Prayer was never for the purpose of bringing new to God's attention. He knows all of our needs from the start. Prayer is a strength of character, given to some of us just as a strong intellect might be given to another. Prayer brings us closer to God, it reorients us toward Him, and God does grant our requests, knowing what they will be before you utter a word.
God does not change His mind, but He does do things because of us. When God wanted to destroy the Hebrews, He relented because of Moses. We are not just puppets to God. He cares about us and wants what is best for us.
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lesliedellow
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The theological system you are describing is commonly known as Calvinism, although, when it comes to God's sovereignty, Thomism is very similar. Amongst Christians it is a minority view.
The point is that our will is never completely free. We can't will ourselves to have an IG of 200, we will be influenced in our actions by our environment, we will be influenced by our desires an temperament, we will be influenced by how others will view our actions, and so on. By controlling all those factors, God can also control which decisions we make. Nevertheless, our wills will be as free (or not) as if God wasn't there - because they are always constrained in any case. Therefore God's preordaining our actions does not take away our moral responsibility.
That is admittedly a hard idea to live with, which is why the majority of Christians don't like it.
The point is that our will is never completely free. We can't will ourselves to have an IG of 200, we will be influenced in our actions by our environment, we will be influenced by our desires an temperament, we will be influenced by how others will view our actions, and so on. By controlling all those factors, God can also control which decisions we make. Nevertheless, our wills will be as free (or not) as if God wasn't there - because they are always constrained in any case. Therefore God's preordaining our actions does not take away our moral responsibility.
That is admittedly a hard idea to live with, which is why the majority of Christians don't like it.
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While I agree our will is never completely free, I don't agree that God controls our decisions. I don't deny influences. I do deny our choice to love or not love is completely God's choice. If you are correct, God is evil and we are not.
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lesliedellow
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There are many biblical passages which would appear to disagree with you. For instance:
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. (Proverbs 21.1)
And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. (Acts 2.47)
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (1 Peter 2.8)
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aiki
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God being in control of everything doesn't necessarily mean He wills everything to happen. I can be in control of my dog without willing everything that he does to occur. However, if God has caused me to do everything that I have done, then all my actions - good and bad - are His responsibility, not mine. One does not blame the puppet for its actions but the puppeteer.
Prayer is not for God's sake but for mine. It is a means of consciously acknowledging and reminding myself of my need of God and communicating with Him as every good relationship requires.
How indeed? I have never encountered a good response to this question.
Well, I don't hold to a deterministic view. In my thinking on this matter I am what is known as a soft libertarian, which seems to make far better sense of my experience and the content of Scripture than determinism does. I don't know why Christians who are deterministic aren't made uneasy by the fact that they share their determinism with atheists!
Well, if you're trying to live outside of, or in contradiction to, what God wants, there isn't much point at all. His will is done and none can prevent it. But why would you want to live outside of God's will? If He is perfect as the Bible says He is, His way is the best way. Why would you want any other, lesser way?
Selah.
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If Not For Grace
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Knowing is not controlling. I know if given a choice my child will pick the Red balloon over the yellow one EVERY time. But I do not control her choice nor do anything to influence her choice, nor do I present her w/balloon to prove my point.
I know that if I jump off the roof I will hit the ground-every time. God has established laws and knows what the outcome of events will be, but just because there is no surprise to God does not mean there was no choice..
There is a difference between knowing and controlling.
I know that if I jump off the roof I will hit the ground-every time. God has established laws and knows what the outcome of events will be, but just because there is no surprise to God does not mean there was no choice..
There is a difference between knowing and controlling.
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razeontherock
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I'm not sure how this thread got resurrected, but yes there is.
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leftrightleftrightleft
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I think the free will debate is a lot more nuanced than most people make it seem. I don't think God controls every minutiae of our lives, nor do I think he is just a passive observer.
As a first note: just because a being is all-powerful does not mean that he must exercise that power. A parent has the ability (power) to strangle their child or give it too much candy or whatever; in that relationship the parent is "all-powerful" over the child but that does not mean the parent constantly and endlessly exerts that power. The parent lets the child walk on their own, they don't manipulate the child's hips and knees and legs in order to make the child walk like a puppet. The parent could do that because they have the power to do so, but its of no benefit for them to exercise that power because it isn't making the child learn, nor is it making the child independent, nor is it making the relationship between parent and child dynamic and progressive.
As a second note: I think God has a plan (or a will) which he envisions becoming a reality at some point in the future. But he gave us free will because robots, computers and marionettes are boring, non-relational, static and unable to love. Love must be a willful action. Forced love is akin to rape. So, given free will, we are able to act outside of God's desired will just as a child can grow up and choose to drop out of high school even though the parents' will is for the child to get an education for their greater benefit. And I think God guides us with hints and whispers towards his will (and sometimes a slap in the face), but he will never force us because then it is not genuine on our part.
I do not view an all-powerful God contradicting our free will. Nor do I think we have no free will. I agree with you, if we have no free will, then we are puppets and our love of God and others is useless.
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GrayAngel
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People, not just you, keep repeating this argument here. That God knows our actions, but He doesn't decide them for us. This is completely contrary to what the Bible actually teaches.
Proverbs 16:9 - In their hearts humans plan their course,
but the LORD establishes their steps.
Proverbs 16:33 - The lot is cast into the lap,
but its every decision is from the LORD.
Proverbs 20:24 - A person’s steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand their own way?
Knowing doesn't equal controlling. That much is true. But according the Bible, God has more to do with our decisions than just knowing them ahead of time. There's no room for debate on this issue when it comes to what the Bible says.
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Harry3142
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ShiningBecky-
Yes, we do have free will, and there is evidence for it:
"Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshipped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord."
Then the people answered, "Far be it from us to forsake the Lord to serve other gods! It was the Lord our God himself who brought us and our fathers up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we traveled. And the Lord drove out before us all the nations, including the Amorites, who lived in the land. We too will serve the Lord, because he is our God."
Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the Lord. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you."
But the people said to Joshua, "No! We will serve the Lord."
Then Joshua said, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord."
"Yes, we are witnesses," they replied.
"Now, then," said Joshua, "throw away the foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel."
And the people said to Joshua, "We will serve the Lord our God and obey him." (Joshua 24:14-24,NIV)
Where people get confused is in the words 'omnipotence' and omniscience'. To some the word 'omnipotent' means that God has everyone on strings, both physically and emotionally, and thus controls every thought, word and action that everyone does throughout their lives. But that would be akin to saying that when we were very young and our parents had authority over us, as a result every thought, word and action which we performed was dictated by them. A good parent permits his children to make mistakes. They permit the child to trip, fall and get up, even when they have the power to prevent such things, because it's all part of the process of growing up, and we must all experience such things in order to improve ourselves. Should we expect any less of God than we would be willing to go through for our own children's wellbeing?
And as for the word 'omniscience', again we must compare God to a parent. It doesn't take an Einstein to realize that if a small child runs long enough outside that child will eventually trip and fall. But does that mean that the parent deliberately caused the child to fall? Of course not. The parent simply knew from experience and wisdom what would happen once a certain course was entered into by the child. Being infinitely wiser, God would know the endresult of any course entered into by us. But this doesn't mean that he 'pushed' us into that course; it simply means that through his wisdom and experience he knew what the outcome of taking that course would be.
Yes, we do have free will, and there is evidence for it:
"Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshipped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord."
Then the people answered, "Far be it from us to forsake the Lord to serve other gods! It was the Lord our God himself who brought us and our fathers up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we traveled. And the Lord drove out before us all the nations, including the Amorites, who lived in the land. We too will serve the Lord, because he is our God."
Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the Lord. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you."
But the people said to Joshua, "No! We will serve the Lord."
Then Joshua said, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord."
"Yes, we are witnesses," they replied.
"Now, then," said Joshua, "throw away the foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel."
And the people said to Joshua, "We will serve the Lord our God and obey him." (Joshua 24:14-24,NIV)
Where people get confused is in the words 'omnipotence' and omniscience'. To some the word 'omnipotent' means that God has everyone on strings, both physically and emotionally, and thus controls every thought, word and action that everyone does throughout their lives. But that would be akin to saying that when we were very young and our parents had authority over us, as a result every thought, word and action which we performed was dictated by them. A good parent permits his children to make mistakes. They permit the child to trip, fall and get up, even when they have the power to prevent such things, because it's all part of the process of growing up, and we must all experience such things in order to improve ourselves. Should we expect any less of God than we would be willing to go through for our own children's wellbeing?
And as for the word 'omniscience', again we must compare God to a parent. It doesn't take an Einstein to realize that if a small child runs long enough outside that child will eventually trip and fall. But does that mean that the parent deliberately caused the child to fall? Of course not. The parent simply knew from experience and wisdom what would happen once a certain course was entered into by the child. Being infinitely wiser, God would know the endresult of any course entered into by us. But this doesn't mean that he 'pushed' us into that course; it simply means that through his wisdom and experience he knew what the outcome of taking that course would be.
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Dear ShiningBecky. God gave us 10 Commandments, and Jesus gave us 2 Commandments, which tell us all what God said in His 10 Commandments. 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds.
2) Love our neighbour as ourselves. On these 2 Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. If we follow God`s loving advice, we will have Blessings, and if we ignore it, or even go against, God`s eternal Law of Justice will take over: the world knows it as: What ye sow ye will also reap. Galatians chapter 6, verse 7. ( Rewards and Blessings for following God`s loving advice, and fitting consequences for ignoring, or going against it.
We have free will to follow, or not, God does not force us. God wants our love freely given and no conditions made, selfless love=Agape. It is no illusion, and John Wesley reminds us in Free Grace. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
2) Love our neighbour as ourselves. On these 2 Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. If we follow God`s loving advice, we will have Blessings, and if we ignore it, or even go against, God`s eternal Law of Justice will take over: the world knows it as: What ye sow ye will also reap. Galatians chapter 6, verse 7. ( Rewards and Blessings for following God`s loving advice, and fitting consequences for ignoring, or going against it.
We have free will to follow, or not, God does not force us. God wants our love freely given and no conditions made, selfless love=Agape. It is no illusion, and John Wesley reminds us in Free Grace. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
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