The illusion of free will

[ShiningBecky]

I was reading an article a friend showed me about how god controls everything in our lives, even down to the minutest details. God's Sovereignty and Your Mistakes - Christian foundations - Christianity.com


I'd like to talk about this with christians. Since god controls everything and everyone, is this a problem for your morality? Does it impact the way you pray, if at all? I can't see praying when god has already predetermined all things after his own counsel, as it says. God controls every sin that humans commit too, so how does this not make him culpable? Can anyone explain this to me, logically???

If god controls everything, then how can the non-believer be blamed for not believing? After all, god made the wicked for the day of destruction. Does having no free will make you feel like a puppet on its strings dancing to whatever god wants you to do??? That is how I feel, if I stop and think about this belief. So free will must be an illusion that your god has given to make you not feel like a puppet, even though we all really are. Doesn't that sound depressing? I find it very much so.

Where is "love" in any of this dogma? Does it help you to live better lives? Me personally, if I believed this truly, I'd probably become very depressed and stop trying to do anything in life. Why bother trying when god just does whatever he likes to do anyway, you know??

 

[ForceofTime]

I was reading an article a friend showed me about how god controls everything in our lives, even down to the minutest details. God's Sovereignty and Your Mistakes - Christian foundations - Christianity.com


I'd like to talk about this with christians. Since god controls everything and everyone, is this a problem for your morality? Does it impact the way you pray, if at all? I can't see praying when god has already predetermined all things after his own counsel, as it says. God controls every sin that humans commit too, so how does this not make him culpable? Can anyone explain this to me, logically???

If god controls everything, then how can the non-believer be blamed for not believing? After all, god made the wicked for the day of destruction. Does having no free will make you feel like a puppet on its strings dancing to whatever god wants you to do??? That is how I feel, if I stop and think about this belief. So free will must be an illusion that your god has given to make you not feel like a puppet, even though we all really are. Doesn't that sound depressing? I find it very much so.

Where is "love" in any of this dogma? Does it help you to live better lives? Me personally, if I believed this truly, I'd probably become very depressed and stop trying to do anything in life. Why bother trying when god just does whatever he likes to do anyway, you know??

Maybe this sermon from John Wesley would interest you:

Global Ministries - John Wesley, Sermon 128, Free Grace

"The grace or love of God, whence cometh our salvation, is FREE IN ALL, and FREE FOR ALL.
I. It is free in all to whom it is given.
II. The doctrine of predestination is not a doctrine of God.
III. Predestination destroys the comfort of religion, the happiness of Christianity.
IV. This uncomfortable doctrine also destroys our zeal for good works.
V. Furthermore, the doctrine of predestination has a direct and manifest tendency to overthrow the whole Christian Revelation.
VI. And at the same time, makes that Revelation contradict itself.
VII. Predestination is a doctrine full of blasphemy."


God bless.

 

[drich0150]

I was reading an article a friend showed me about how god controls everything in our lives, even down to the minutest details. God's Sovereignty and Your Mistakes - Christian foundations - Christianity.com


I'd like to talk about this with Christians. Since god controls everything and everyone, is this a problem for your morality? Does it impact the way you pray, if at all? I can't see praying when god has already predetermined all things after his own counsel, as it says. God controls every sin that humans commit too, so how does this not make him culpable? Can anyone explain this to me, logically???

If god controls everything, then how can the non-believer be blamed for not believing? After all, god made the wicked for the day of destruction. Does having no free will make you feel like a puppet on its strings dancing to whatever god wants you to do??? That is how I feel, if I stop and think about this belief. So free will must be an illusion that your god has given to make you not feel like a puppet, even though we all really are. Doesn't that sound depressing? I find it very much so.

Where is "love" in any of this dogma? Does it help you to live better lives? Me personally, if I believed this truly, I'd probably become very depressed and stop trying to do anything in life. Why bother trying when god just does whatever he likes to do anyway, you know??

Didn't we do this already once before?

Definitions First:

Sin, Anything not in the expressed will of God

Evil, a malicious intent to be outside of God's Expressed Will.

Not all sin is Evil but all evil is sin.

Freewill is the ability to be outside of the expressed will of God.

In other words Freewill is the ability to sin.

What you are describing is the philosophy of freedom of choice. God has not promised freedom of choice but we do indeed Have been given freewill.

Why? Choice. So we can choose where we wish to spend eternity.

 

[Nails74]

Me personally, if I believed this truly, I'd probably become very depressed and stop trying to do anything in life. Why bother trying when god just does whatever he likes to do anyway, you know??

Have you ever read Romans 9? For context, start about 8:28.

 

[ShiningBecky]

Didn't we do this already once before?

Definitions First:

Sin, Anything not in the expressed will of God

Evil, a malicious intent to be outside of God's Expressed Will.

Not all sin is Evil but all evil is sin.

Freewill is the ability to be outside of the expressed will of God.

In other words Freewill is the ability to sin.

What you are describing is the philosophy of freedom of choice. God has not promised freedom of choice but we do indeed Have been given freewill.

Why? Choice. So we can choose where we wish to spend eternity.

According to your bible, there's no such thing as free will. I'm asking how this prospect makes you feel as a person. How would this affect your life?

 

[Believer69]

Didn't we do this already once before?

Definitions First:

Sin, Anything not in the expressed will of God

Evil, a malicious intent to be outside of God's Expressed Will.

Not all sin is Evil but all evil is sin.

Freewill is the ability to be outside of the expressed will of God.

In other words Freewill is the ability to sin.

What you are describing is the philosophy of freedom of choice. God has not promised freedom of choice but we do indeed Have been given freewill.

Why? Choice. So we can choose where we wish to spend eternity.

So if god orders to death of someone are you ok with this as it is his will and he is allowed to take death?

 

[ShiningBecky]

Have you ever read Romans 9? For context, start about 8:28.

Sure have! It's a different chapter though.

Can you answer some of the questions I asked above? Thank you.

 

[drich0150]

According to your bible, there's no such thing as free will. I'm asking how this prospect makes you feel as a person. How would this affect your life?

Not true unless you can provide book chapter and verse that says their is no free will.

 

[ShiningBecky]

Not true unless you can provide book chapter and verse that says their is no free will.

Proverbs says that man may plan but god is the one who determines the course of men's steps. Look it up, please!!

http://www.theopedia.com/Sovereignty_of_God

 

[drich0150]

Proverbs says that man may plan but god is the one who determines the course of men's steps. Look it up, please!!

Did you even read my post? Could you take the time to read it before responding?

I have identified what you have called "Free Will" as freedom of Choice. Free Will as the bible describes it is the ability to sin. We have been given freewill, but not freedom of Choice.

But again even so even if we do not have freedom of choice we do have the ability to be outside of God's expressed will for our life.

 

[ShiningBecky]

Did you even read my post? Could you take the time to read it before responding?

I have identified what you have called "Free Will" as freedom of Choice. Free Will as the bible describes it is the ability to sin. We have been given freewill, but not freedom of Choice.

But again even so even if we do not have freedom of choice we do have the ability to be outside of God's expressed will for our life.

You deny god's sovereignty and refuse to answer my questions.

 

[OnlyBelieve]

Could you fit these scriptures into your predestination theory?
This is good, and pleases God our Savior,who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 timothy 2:3-4.
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.2Peter 3:9
The entire Old Testement is about free will. Or freedom to Choose, if you please. Think about the choices that Israel made, teachings us, when we separate ourselves from God by doing our own will, then there are consequences. You could spend 40years in the dessert if you choose not to believe his whole word, or you could have a 14 day trip if you choose to do the Will of the father. There are so many stories in the Bible that show man has free will, weather they choose him or not. How about Adam, in the Garden, did he not CHOOSE to sin? to disobey God? You see, God did this so we could see, YOU choose Blessings or Cursings on your life. God has set good works for you to do on the earth, weather you do them, IS up to you...

 

[Nails74]

You asked if I could answer your questions...I'll try.

Since god controls everything and everyone, is this a problem for your morality?

No...it does not change God's moral laws

Does it impact the way you pray, if at all? I can't see praying when god has already predetermined all things after his own counsel, as it says.

Just a few of the verses regarding prayer...

Rejoice always! Pray constantly. Give thanks in everything, for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. [1 Thessalonians 5:16-18]

If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?” [Luke 11:13]

God controls every sin that humans commit too, so how does this not make him culpable? Can anyone explain this to me, logically???

Where does it say that God controls every sin? I'm pretty sure we do that just fine on our own...

The heart is more deceitful than anything else, and incurable —who can understand it? [Jeremiah 17:9]

If god controls everything, then how can the non-believer be blamed for not believing? After all, god made the wicked for the day of destruction.

As I mentioned before, Paul sets up the same argument in Romans 9...

You will say to me, therefore, “Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will?” [Romans 9:19]

Does having no free will make you feel like a puppet on its strings dancing to whatever god wants you to do??? That is how I feel, if I stop and think about this belief. So free will must be an illusion that your god has given to make you not feel like a puppet, even though we all really are.

I'm not sure where you find all this talk of free will in the Bible. Can I choose ketchup or mustard on my burger? Sure...but that doesn't exactly have eternal implications.

Doesn't that sound depressing? I find it very much so.

I actually find it very comforting knowing that God is sovereign.

Where is "love" in any of this dogma? Does it help you to live better lives? Me personally, if I believed this truly, I'd probably become very depressed and stop trying to do anything in life. Why bother trying when god just does whatever he likes to do anyway, you know??

Your idea of love is not the same as God's love...

For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. [John 3:16-17]

But God proves His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us! Much more then, since we have now been declared righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath. [Romans 5:8-9]

Please let me know if these answers are not sufficient.

 

[drich0150]

You deny god's sovereignty and refuse to answer my questions.

Ah, no. I've answer your questions by showing you that you do not have a complete biblical understanding of what you have asked. I also took the time to redefine the term you are incorrectly using so that your question could be answered biblically.

I'm afraid you simply do not understand what has been offered, and rather than asking question to help yourself clarify, you favor to remain in your current state of anger and confusion. It seems you want to be mad at God, and hanging on to your ideas of freewill is the only thing you have left.

When your ready to come into the light all you have to do is ask to see it.

 

[GrayAngel]

I was reading an article a friend showed me about how god controls everything in our lives, even down to the minutest details. God's Sovereignty and Your Mistakes - Christian foundations - Christianity.com


I'd like to talk about this with christians. Since god controls everything and everyone, is this a problem for your morality? Does it impact the way you pray, if at all? I can't see praying when god has already predetermined all things after his own counsel, as it says. God controls every sin that humans commit too, so how does this not make him culpable? Can anyone explain this to me, logically???

If god controls everything, then how can the non-believer be blamed for not believing? After all, god made the wicked for the day of destruction. Does having no free will make you feel like a puppet on its strings dancing to whatever god wants you to do??? That is how I feel, if I stop and think about this belief. So free will must be an illusion that your god has given to make you not feel like a puppet, even though we all really are. Doesn't that sound depressing? I find it very much so.

Where is "love" in any of this dogma? Does it help you to live better lives? Me personally, if I believed this truly, I'd probably become very depressed and stop trying to do anything in life. Why bother trying when god just does whatever he likes to do anyway, you know??

Logically, I can accept this for two reasons:

1. Free will is logically impossible. You can't have an all-powerful, all-knowing God, who is not in control of every detail of our lives. The idea of such an infinite God and free will are incompatible. Our will cannot possibly contradict the will of an all-powerful God. And if there is no alternative to our reality, what's the point of complaining? You could try worshiping a weaker god, but you will have nothing to gain by it.

2. God created the world and everything in it. He has more rights over our lives than we do.

The problem is with your perspective. You find it depressing that you're not in control of your own life. I find it comforting. If it comes down to having my life determined by either chance or by God, I'm gonna go with God. Chance doesn't care about me at all. God, on the other hand, cares very much about me. He promises that He will not let anything happen to me that isn't for my good.

Romans 8:28 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

How does it affect my prayer? I cling to Him even more, knowing He's the only one I can rely on. And it gives my requests a little more meaning, knowing that God is not too weak against our free will to make anything happen.

It gives me confidence, knowing that whatever I do, God is the power behind me. Where He wants me to succeed, I will succeed. Where He wants me to fail, I will fail, and I will move on to my next challenge. I don't have to be good enough, and wherever I fail, I will become a better man for it.

 

[iLogos]

Logically, I can accept this for two reasons:

1. Free will is logically impossible. You can't have an all-powerful, all-knowing God, who is not in control of every detail of our lives. The idea of such an infinite God and free will are incompatible. Our will cannot possibly contradict the will of an all-powerful God. And if there is no alternative to our reality, what's the point of complaining? You could try worshiping a weaker god, but you will have nothing to gain by it.

Please explain why a Sovereign God would be some how weaker if we had free will? That makes no sense, but I understand that is how you been conditioned to think, one or the other. The truth of the matter is you have no proof of this except from commentaries from men written to support the views and systems they created.

GOD could certainly remain ALL POWERFUL and always in CONTROL and still give us free will, that you have trouble understanding that is no bases to dismiss it, nor is it a concern of mine

2. God created the world and everything in it. He has more rights over our lives than we do.

He does! I agree so far!

The problem is with your perspective. You find it depressing that you're not in control of your own life. I find it comforting.

Be honest! Your only defining your perspective here, Not Gods or the posters.

If it comes down to having my life determined by either chance or by God, I'm gonna go with God. Chance doesn't care about me at all.

And who said any thing about chance? Again you provide your perspective and even add descriptions not even entered in the argument. Not your fault. I understand you were conditioned to think and respond that way by men's commentaries

God, on the other hand, cares very much about me. He promises that He will not let anything happen to me that isn't for my good.

Agreed!

Romans 8:28 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

How does it affect my prayer? I cling to Him even more, knowing He's the only one I can rely on. And it gives my requests a little more meaning, knowing that God is not too weak against our free will to make anything happen.

I'm glad to hear this, because some stop praying because they think there is little or no value in it since God is in complete control of every one and every thing.

It gives me confidence, knowing that whatever I do, God is the power behind me. Where He wants me to succeed, I will succeed. Where He wants me to fail, I will fail, and I will move on to my next challenge. I don't have to be good enough, and wherever I fail, I will become a better man for it.

You still need more confidence knowing God is in control of every thing? You already know He is the power behind your success and failures yet you need more confidence? Interesting.

I believe GOD is Sovereign and allows man free will, to be able to make mistakes and learn from them. I also believe prayer is one of the most important aspects of Christian living. It's amazing GOD can be all powerful and in complete control and still give man free will! Too bad you see that as a weakness. I actually see your view as a weakness

God Bless!

 

[ShiningBecky]

Logically, I can accept this for two reasons:

1. Free will is logically impossible. You can't have an all-powerful, all-knowing God, who is not in control of every detail of our lives. The idea of such an infinite God and free will are incompatible. Our will cannot possibly contradict the will of an all-powerful God. And if there is no alternative to our reality, what's the point of complaining? You could try worshiping a weaker god, but you will have nothing to gain by it.

2. God created the world and everything in it. He has more rights over our lives than we do.

The problem is with your perspective. You find it depressing that you're not in control of your own life. I find it comforting. If it comes down to having my life determined by either chance or by God, I'm gonna go with God. Chance doesn't care about me at all. God, on the other hand, cares very much about me. He promises that He will not let anything happen to me that isn't for my good.

Romans 8:28 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

How does it affect my prayer? I cling to Him even more, knowing He's the only one I can rely on. And it gives my requests a little more meaning, knowing that God is not too weak against our free will to make anything happen.

It gives me confidence, knowing that whatever I do, God is the power behind me. Where He wants me to succeed, I will succeed. Where He wants me to fail, I will fail, and I will move on to my next challenge. I don't have to be good enough, and wherever I fail, I will become a better man for it.

So if you sin, is it god making you sin? Since he controls all, he even controls when you sin, right? Isn't that a problem for your theology?

Since god controls everything in your life, why do anything? Why even get out of bed, since god can just do everything himself? I don't see the logic behind it all.

 

[ShiningBecky]

I'm glad to hear this, because some stop praying because they think there is little or no value in it since God is in complete control of every one and every thing.

Actually, if god controls everything then prayer is pointless, if you're expecting it to accomplish or change anything.

 

[ShiningBecky]

Here's a satire somebody did of the problem of having no free will. It's silly but funny:

Hitler & Calvinism - YouTube

 

[Andy Pandy]

Personally, I find the free will thing a bit of a nightmare..... do it or else, does not quite fit the bill for free will...

I have no way to explain in great detail, but surely 'free will' would give us a less hateful option