The high price of freedom.

OldWiseGuy

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When the dust has settled the innocent lives taken by the Oregon shooter are indeed part of the price of freedom in the U.S. The shooter had not violated any gun laws, and the only way he could have been prevented from doing this act was to have been committed to a secure mental institution under the pertinent laws of the State of Oregon.
 

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The populace doesn't deserve to suffer just so some people have complete unfettered access to guns. Guns shouldn't be illegal, but they shouldn't be ridiculously easy to acquire. Living alongside so many mass shootings to the extent that they've become commonplace shows that we're doing it wrong.
 
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dgiharris

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Or we can stop the freedom nonsense, make it illegal to own guns.
If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them.

However, I'm a big fan of meeting in the middle.

If we have the same requirements for gun ownership as we do car ownership, we'd solve a lot of problems related to gun issues.

Require Registration, require ballistics registration of each gun so you can match a bullet with a gun in a national database, require licensing to own a gun (i.e. you have to pass a test), require screening (background checks and medical checks mental health check)...

The real culprit here isn't so much the gun, but the people who wield them. The root cause of the mass shooting problems isn't the gun but rather mentally unstable people. We need to focus on the root cause meaning we need to focus on how we identify and treat the mentally ill in this country.

It is normal to periodically get a physical, however, why isn't it normal to get a periodic mental health screening?
The vast majority of the populace has never had a real in-depth mental health screening. Mental health is one of those things that everyone just assumes they know all about.

What we really need as a nation is to rethink mental health and to take concrete steps to ensure a mentally healthy populace. Those who are not mentally healthy should not be allowed to own guns. And illegal guns should be regarded the same way that drugs are. Which brings us back to registration.

Registration and screening is only a partial solution. The real solution is to take steps to ensure a mentally healthy populace and identify those who are not mentally stable and ensure they aren't allowed to own guns.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them.

However, I'm a big fan of meeting in the middle.

If we have the same requirements for gun ownership as we do car ownership, we'd solve a lot of problems related to gun issues.

Require Registration, require ballistics registration of each gun so you can match a bullet with a gun in a national database, require licensing to own a gun (i.e. you have to pass a test), require screening (background checks and medical checks mental health check)...

The real culprit here isn't so much the gun, but the people who wield them. The root cause of the mass shooting problems isn't the gun but rather mentally unstable people. We need to focus on the root cause meaning we need to focus on how we identify and treat the mentally ill in this country.

It is normal to periodically get a physical, however, why isn't it normal to get a periodic mental health screening?
The vast majority of the populace has never had a real in-depth mental health screening. Mental health is one of those things that everyone just assumes they know all about.

What we really need as a nation is to rethink mental health and to take concrete steps to ensure a mentally healthy populace. Those who are not mentally healthy should not be allowed to own guns. And illegal guns should be regarded the same way that drugs are. Which brings us back to registration.

Registration and screening is only a partial solution. The real solution is to take steps to ensure a mentally healthy populace and identify those who are not mentally stable and ensure they aren't allowed to own guns.

Every time a person visits their doctor their mental health is at least surreptitously observed by that doctor. I recently changed doctors and after a brief consultation about an upcoming procedure the doctor introduced me to his supervisor, ostensibly to 'meet the new patient' and (humorously) ensure her that I wasn't an 'ax murderer'. The supervisor talked with me briefly, kind of a 'first impression' looksee. Kinda like Mark Twain examining that 'genuine Mexican plug' to see if there was 'anything wild in his eye'. :eek:
 
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dysert

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When the dust has settled the innocent lives taken by the Oregon shooter are indeed part of the price of freedom in the U.S. The shooter had not violated any gun laws, and the only way he could have been prevented from doing this act was to have been committed to a secure mental institution under the pertinent laws of the State of Oregon.
I guess it's not a "gun law" but I understand it is posted that the campus is a "gun-free zone", so it looks like he did violate some law before he started shooting.
 
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dysert

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The real culprit here isn't so much the gun, but the people who wield them.
Actually, it's both. Put a knife or a hammer in the hands of a mentally ill person and even if they go on a rampage there will be a lot less carnage. The problem with the gun is that it can kill so many people so fast and at a distance.
 
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dysert

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What we really need as a nation is to rethink mental health and to take concrete steps to ensure a mentally healthy populace. Those who are not mentally healthy should not be allowed to own guns. And illegal guns should be regarded the same way that drugs are. Which brings us back to registration.

Registration and screening is only a partial solution. The real solution is to take steps to ensure a mentally healthy populace and identify those who are not mentally stable and ensure they aren't allowed to own guns.
While I think that's good in theory, it wouldn't work in practice. That's because of the way mentally ill people are treated in society. For example, I personally know someone who was fired as soon as their employer found out they had depression. So it's not just a social stigma but a problem that can affect a person's whole life.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Perhaps the kids should identify all the 'weirdo's' and 'loner's' to the school staff. They know who they are. Also notice that it is the 'peer' group that is most often targeted, from the 'disgruntled' postal workers shooting their fellow workers to high school and college kids shooting other students, usually in their own school. There is a social problem within these communities that should be examined. Bullying and exclusion are likely factors. And of course some of these kids are just nuts.
 
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rambot

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When the dust has settled the innocent lives taken by the Oregon shooter are indeed part of the price of freedom in the U.S. The shooter had not violated any gun laws, and the only way he could have been prevented from doing this act was to have been committed to a secure mental institution under the pertinent laws of the State of Oregon.
I have a feeling it's only worth it because one of YOUR loved ones hasn't been killed.
260,000 people HAVE been killed in the last decade. I'm not convinced many of their family members would necessarily share your view.
There are many, MANY countries in the world where people have "Just as much freedom with none of the mass murders!"
 
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Chicken Little

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Or we can stop the freedom nonsense, make it illegal to own guns.
no just make it illegal for those who think it should be made illegal. they are the problem.
 
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rambot

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If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them.

However, I'm a big fan of meeting in the middle.

If we have the same requirements for gun ownership as we do car ownership, we'd solve a lot of problems related to gun issues.

Require Registration, require ballistics registration of each gun so you can match a bullet with a gun in a national database, require licensing to own a gun (i.e. you have to pass a test), require screening (background checks and medical checks mental health check)...

The real culprit here isn't so much the gun, but the people who wield them. The root cause of the mass shooting problems isn't the gun but rather mentally unstable people. We need to focus on the root cause meaning we need to focus on how we identify and treat the mentally ill in this country.
You will ALWAYS have mentally unwell people. ALYWAYS! They will never disappear. Again, Aussie's biggest massacre was carried about by a terribly mentally unwell man. They put in strict gun laws (as opposed to TREMENDOUS support for mental health) and saw huge benefit.
 
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Chicken Little

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OK you can have our guns the minute you take the peckers off of every liberal first because they won't tell the truth or know it either. and then every man who has ever abused it , diseased it , and everyone who ever will do those things in the future !
or let us keep our guns!
because wild and nasty and aggressive ,sneaky lying peckers kill more innocent , harm more innocent and disease more innocent than anything else on the planet by far !
hell has ever only ever existed to date in between mankind right ear and left year.. the pit is for all who refuse to control their own hell.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I have a feeling it's only worth it because one of YOUR loved ones hasn't been killed.

If my loved ones were victims I wouldn't be qualified to render an objective opinion on the subject.

260,000 people HAVE been killed in the last decade.

And we have to go through them one at a time to get a clear picture.

I'm not convinced many of their family members would necessarily share your view.

And I would understand if they didn't.

There are many, MANY countries in the world where people have "Just as much freedom with none of the mass murders!"

The U.S. is unique, not to be compared with 'many' other countries.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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The problem is the ever increasing lack of interaction americans have one another. Too many loners or people who want to be left alone. If he had good friends he would either A) not do it at all or B) they would have picked up on his intentions and warned the authorities.
 
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Armoured

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When the dust has settled the innocent lives taken by the Oregon shooter are indeed part of the price of freedom in the U.S. The shooter had not violated any gun laws, and the only way he could have been prevented from doing this act was to have been committed to a secure mental institution under the pertinent laws of the State of Oregon.
Your empathy for the families of the dead is a beacon unto all of us.

"Well, gee, your kid is dead, but hey, at least you have freedom to buy a gun without meaningful background checks".
 
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Armoured

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The U.S. is unique, not to be compared with 'many' other countries.
Other than being the only developed nation that regularly features mass shootings, what's so "unique" about it?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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The problem is the ever increasing lack of interaction americans have one another. Too many loners or people who want to be left alone. If he had good friends he would either A) not do it at all or B) they would have picked up on his intentions and warned the authorities.

Or it could have been another Columbine.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Your empathy for the families of the dead is a beacon unto all of us.

"Well, gee, your kid is dead, but hey, at least you have freedom to buy a gun without meaningful background checks".

?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Other than being the only developed nation that regularly features mass shootings, what's so "unique" about it?

Our expectations are greater, as well as our disappointments, which may account for much of the violence.
 
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