Discussion The heart is deceitful above all things

[ToBeLoved]

What do you think this verse means? How do you apply this to your life?

Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

 

[MoreCoffee]

What do you think this verse means? How do you apply this to your life?

Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

The New American Bible says:

(Jeremiah 17:9 NAB) More tortuous than all else is the human heart, beyond remedy; who can understand it?​

So I reckon that passage is more about the unfathomable weirdness of human motives, including motives for doing wrong when what is right is known, than it is about how evil the human heart is. Maybe the KJV translators were feeling more Calvinist than usual when they translated that verse.

Albert Barnes comments:

Jer 17:9
The train of thought is apparently this: If the man is so blessed Jer_17:7-8 who trusts in Yahweh, what is the reason why men so generally “make flesh their arm”? And the answer is: Because man’s heart is incapable of seeing things in a straightforward manner, but is full of shrewd guile, and ever seeking to overreach others.
Desperately wicked - Rather, mortally sick.​

The Cambridge commentary - which is quite good in my opinion - says:

Jeremiah 17:9-10

Du. (so too Co.) suggests that these vv. link on closely to Jer 17:14. In Jer 17:9, according to him, the prophet is confessing his personal consciousness of sin, discovered by probing beneath the fair exterior to the hidden depths of his heart. In Jer 17:10 the Lord replies, that the intricacies and subtleties of the human heart are open to His gaze. In Jer 17:14 accordingly the prophet prays the great Physician, who can so fully diagnose the disease, to exercise His healing power. Whether Du.’s suggestion be accepted or not, the vv. have no close connexion with what precedes or immediately follows.​

 

[Steeno7]

What do you think this verse means? How do you apply this to your life?

Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

I think it means that we need a new heart. Which is the promise of God in the new covenant, Ezek. 36:26-27, fulfilled in Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am thinking that it has to do with the heart is always responding to what is best for us by following our emotions that are also based upon the individual.

I think it has more to do with our love of self. The need for us to feed our pride, or our emotions of love to other people when/if we place those things above what the Word of God says. People can and do justify almost anything inside their minds and hearts as an almost self-protection type of mechanism when they don't want to hurt their own pride or feel the pain of something.

I think that's where that saying that 'there is a real fine line between love and hate' comes from. Only when you love someone so deeply, can they in turn hurt you so deeply.

 

[Kirsten]

What do you think this verse means? How do you apply this to your life?

Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

I just accept it as fact. This prevents me from ever thinking I'm good. It keeps me humble. Or at least I hope it does. And there I go, proclaiming I'm humble, which is anything but. My heart is desperately wicked.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I just accept it as fact. This prevents me from ever thinking I'm good. It keeps me humble. Or at least I hope it does. And there I go, proclaiming I'm humble, which is anything but. My heart is desperately wicked.

I agree. I just accept it as fact because of course God knows us. I can't tell you how many times I've made a decision based on my heart and emotions and later just thought what did I do. I've had many years of looking back after time has passed and have proven it to myself over and over that I do not make good decisions based on emotion.

 

[Steeno7]

Jeremiah's comment that "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" is no longer true for a Christian. We have received the promised new heart of Ezekiel 36:26-27. The Spirit of Christ indwells our hearts (Eph. 3:17), and this constitutes a "new heart" wherein "God has written His laws upon our hearts" (Heb. 8:10; 10:16). "If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; old things have passed away and new things have come" (2 Cor. 5:17).

 

[Kirsten]

Jeremiah's comment that "the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked" is no longer true for a Christian. We have received the promised new heart of Ezekiel 36:26-27. The Spirit of Christ indwells our hearts (Eph. 3:17), and this constitutes a "new heart" wherein "God has written His laws upon our hearts" (Heb. 8:10; 10:16). "If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; old things have passed away and new things have come" (2 Cor. 5:17).

True, as long as we are walking in the Spirit and not our flesh. Christians still walk in the flesh sometimes. In fact, I think we Christians walk in the flesh without even knowing it.

 

[Steeno7]

True, as long as we are walking in the Spirit and not our flesh. Christians still walk in the flesh sometimes. In fact, I think we Christians walk in the flesh without even knowing it.

Indeed we are no longer obligated to fulfill the desires of the flesh (sarx). But if we do it does not change our new heart back to a deceitful and wicked heart.

 

[Svt4Him]

I just accept it as fact. This prevents me from ever thinking I'm good. It keeps me humble. Or at least I hope it does. And there I go, proclaiming I'm humble, which is anything but. My heart is desperately wicked.

What's the humblest thing you've done that you're most proud of?

Haha...

 

[Kirsten]

Indeed we are no longer obligated to fulfill the desires of the flesh (sarx). But if we do it does not change our new heart back to a deceitful and wicked heart.

No, it just exposes that our hearts as wicked. Our sin nature, that is the nature of the flesh, is always with us.

 

[Kirsten]

What's the humblest thing you've done that you're most proud of?

Haha...

Exactly.

 

[de1929]

What do you think this verse means? How do you apply this to your life?

Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

That's what happen if somebody didn't guard they heart, choose not to have faith. The fear will resonate with fear, and fear's teammate is deceitful. You can expects all the negative things to come if you choose to dwell in fear. You can expects all negative things to come if you didn't choose faith. You can expects all negative things to come if you did not guard your heart.
Take a look at verse below that facilitate faith.

Proverbs 4:23Amplified Bible (AMP)
23 Keep and guard your heart with all vigilance and above all that you guard, for out of it flow the springs of life.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That's what happen if somebody didn't guard they heart, choose not to have faith. The fear will resonate with fear, and fear's teammate is deceitful. You can expects all the negative things to come if you choose to dwell in fear. You can expects all negative things to come if you didn't choose faith. You can expects all negative things to come if you did not guard your heart.
Take a look at verse below that facilitate faith.

Proverbs 4:23Amplified Bible (AMP)
23 Keep and guard your heart with all vigilance and above all that you guard, for out of it flow the springs of life.

So you take that verse to mean that guarding our heart is replacing it with faith? And not having faith causes the heart to have fear?

 

[GrenBH]

I'm not sure the NAB the other poster referenced is the best translation. Exactly what does "torturous" add to the text? That it tortures things or is full of torture? According to Strong's dictionary, the word the NAB translates as "torturous" is better "deceitful," or "crooked" and other such like words. The Young's literal translation uses crooked. The ESV uses deceitful. The ERV translates "Nothing can hide its evil more than the human heart...". The Spanish Reina-Valera uses the word for "misleading," and the Latin Vulgate goes with "deceitful."

The wickedness of the human heart, nevertheless, is confirmed by many other verses, showing that man-- without God-- has no good in him.

 

[TillICollapse]

I just accept it as fact. This prevents me from ever thinking I'm good. It keeps me humble. Or at least I hope it does. And there I go, proclaiming I'm humble, which is anything but. My heart is desperately wicked.

One thing I think that often gets overlooked, is that the scriptures say, AFAIK, that the new heart we are given is made of flesh.

Ezekiel 36: "24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God."

I think it's interesting to consider that this new thing given, along with a new spirit, is actually flesh. So while the rest of the flesh is apparently put to death, the reverse may be the case concerning the heart: it goes from stone, to flesh.

In this context, I would say a stony heart is the thing that is more likely to not be trusted. Counterintuitively, it would be the fleshly heart which is a gift and evidence of "new".

Personally, I would try to treat everyone's heart with respect, be it "stony or flesh." That includes my own.

Matthew 12:35 "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."

So even the scriptures seem to indicate it's possible to bring good things forth from the heart. I may assume that would be a heart made of flesh.

Even Paul in 1 Corinthians 4, states: "3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God."

It that context, it would seem that Paul is saying that even judging oneself is somewhat pointless, because it is the Lord who will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart.

So if you truly thought your heart was desperately wicked, and that you are no good, and this is all fact ... one thing I've not understood, is why would you interact with people at all for that matter ? Why not just remove yourself from society so that you do not perpetuate "wickedness" ? Why speak ? Wouldn't this be "repenting" ?

 

[de1929]

So you take that verse to mean that guarding our heart is replacing it with faith? And not having faith causes the heart to have fear?

well, allow me to make our understanding identical.
i assumed faith is faith to JESUS correct ? why it's important ? because faith is instrument. faith is like a car. you can choose to drive your car, your you can choose to take a bus. faith to JESUS meaning we choose to trust in JESUS. But other religion has different faith right ? they choose to believe in something else. So here i believe is : faith to JESUS. but of course for simply writings, faith .

to make a deeper understanding, take a look at salesman shoe here:
http://betterlifecoachingblog.com/2010/05/21/shoe-salesmen-in-africa-a-story-about-optimism/

here is my comment: the salesman has faith that he can sell, because nobody wearing shoes. the other salesman (the fear one) he choose to fear, because nobody wearing shoes.

same fact right ? nobody wearing shoes

back to your question / comments, it is essentially correct that not having faith causes the heart to have fear. to make understanding better, compare faith as water, fear as no water (aka empty). A glass is either filled with water or empty. We can decide to have 1/4 filled, half or anything we want.

faith is not only believe in JESUS, but to apply it further by receiving it. The essence is found in Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

to conclude: people without the ability to believe that what they pray has been received, will surely has lack of faith. Bible knowledge probably GPA = 4.0 but faith GPA ? ... those with faith GPA = 0.5 (scale of 4), his heart will naturally swing back to fear mode and more fear will attract fear.
How to relate fear = deceitful heart ? you will accuse your heart is deceitful because whatever you do is wrong, and everything your inner man says leads to more trouble correct ?

Sure up to this point nothing flow out of his heart, only doctrine and perhaps may i add: law ? the law that only bring death.

I know i explain a lot, and unstructured. let me know if you don't understand.

 

[SkyWriting]

What do you think this verse means? How do you apply this to your life?

Jeremiah 17:9
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

It means that a persons ego will direct ones thoughts away from God.
For example, man will invent a "noble" cause and send people to mars
to their death, just to avoid church on Sunday, so to speak.

 

[ToBeLoved]

well, allow me to make our understanding identical.
i assumed faith is faith to JESUS correct ? why it's important ? because faith is instrument. faith is like a car. you can choose to drive your car, your you can choose to take a bus. faith to JESUS meaning we choose to trust in JESUS. But other religion has different faith right ? they choose to believe in something else. So here i believe is : faith to JESUS. but of course for simply writings, faith .

to make a deeper understanding, take a look at salesman shoe here:
http://betterlifecoachingblog.com/2010/05/21/shoe-salesmen-in-africa-a-story-about-optimism/

here is my comment: the salesman has faith that he can sell, because nobody wearing shoes. the other salesman (the fear one) he choose to fear, because nobody wearing shoes.

same fact right ? nobody wearing shoes

back to your question / comments, it is essentially correct that not having faith causes the heart to have fear. to make understanding better, compare faith as water, fear as no water (aka empty). A glass is either filled with water or empty. We can decide to have 1/4 filled, half or anything we want.

faith is not only believe in JESUS, but to apply it further by receiving it. The essence is found in Mark 11:24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

to conclude: people without the ability to believe that what they pray has been received, will surely has lack of faith. Bible knowledge probably GPA = 4.0 but faith GPA ? ... those with faith GPA = 0.5 (scale of 4), his heart will naturally swing back to fear mode and more fear will attract fear.
How to relate fear = deceitful heart ? you will accuse your heart is deceitful because whatever you do is wrong, and everything your inner man says leads to more trouble correct ?

Sure up to this point nothing flow out of his heart, only doctrine and perhaps may i add: law ? the law that only bring death.

I know i explain a lot, and unstructured. let me know if you don't understand.

My question was focused around the verse that you posted:

Proverbs 4:23Amplified Bible (AMP)
23 Keep and guard your heart with all vigilance and above all that you guard, for out of it flow the springs of life.

I wanted to know how/why you felt this verse co-related with the heart being wicked above all things.

 

[de1929]

My question was focused around the verse that you posted:

Proverbs 4:23Amplified Bible (AMP)
23 Keep and guard your heart with all vigilance and above all that you guard, for out of it flow the springs of life.

I wanted to know how/why you felt this verse co-related with the heart being wicked above all things.

if you think why should i guard my heart, My heart is deceitful and it's always wicked, then your understanding is wrong.

The correct understanding is, i will guard my heart, so it will not ended up deceitful heart. The wicked heart will not able to produce good spring of life.

this simplified form hopefully summarize my reply earlier. Let me know if you have questions