1. Saying Goodbye to a Great Staffer: Edial
    Please help me wish Edial a wonderful blessed journey as he steps down from CF staff.
    His footprint on our ministry will always remain but his presence will be greatly missed. I'm sure he will come around as a member to all his favorite forums but for now please join me at his profile page to wish him many thanks for the years of service he has brought to us all.
    All of us on CF staff will miss him dearly!!
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice

Welcome to Christian Forums, a friendly forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
  • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
  • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting after you have posted 20 posts and have received 5 likes.
  • Access to private conversations with other members.

We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Greatest Heresy - Substitutionary Atonement...

Discussion in 'St. Justin Martyr's Corner: Debate an Orthodox Chr' started by Sphinx777, Dec 18, 2009.

  1. Sphinx777

    Sphinx777 New Member

    Messages:
    6,288
    Likes Received:
    765
    Marital Status:
    Private
    Faith:
    Christian
    This thread would benefit from an Orthodox perspective...

    The Greatest Heresy


    :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2009
  2. Sphinx777

    Sphinx777 New Member

    Messages:
    6,288
    Likes Received:
    765
    Marital Status:
    Private
    Faith:
    Christian
  3. Ignatius21

    Ignatius21 Can somebody please pass the incense?

    Messages:
    2,203
    Likes Received:
    222
    Gender:
    Male
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Eastern-Orthodox
    Perhaps you could provide said Orthodox perspective? "Substitutionary Atonement" carries a whole spectrum of meaning across and within Christian communions, so I predict that thread will go nowhere since everyone will assume they mean the same thing, but actually won't. Some will think "penal" and some will think "ransom" and some won't know what to think.

    I know the Orthodox do not stress (or perhaps even acknowledge) the penal aspects, while many in the West (esp. Roman Catholic and Lutheran/Reformed) are almost obsessed with it. Your thoughts?
     
  4. Christos Anesti

    Christos Anesti Junior Member

    Messages:
    3,480
    Likes Received:
    248
    Marital Status:
    Single
    Faith:
    Eastern-Orthodox
    From what I understand it's not stressed in our theology but it does have its place as one metaphor (among others) describing the mystery of our salvation. The problem comes when people take the metaphor in an overly literal manner and stress it to the exclusion of the other methods of describing it. Maybe someone else can correct me if I am wrong here?
     
  5. Knee V

    Knee V It's phonetic.

    Messages:
    7,528
    Likes Received:
    587
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Eastern-Orthodox
    From my understanding, there is nothing there to correct. There is one mystery of our salvation, and many valid and useful, yet incomplete, ways of describing it.
     
  6. Protoevangel

    Protoevangel A time comes when silence is betrayal.

    Messages:
    11,672
    Likes Received:
    1,160
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Eastern-Orthodox
    As knee-v said, your post is exactly true. The penal/forensic understanding of Salvation was spoken of not only by Paul, but a number of Saints. But it is only one analogy of a reality that is greater than any analogy we could possibly come up with.
     
  7. Ignatius21

    Ignatius21 Can somebody please pass the incense?

    Messages:
    2,203
    Likes Received:
    222
    Gender:
    Male
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Eastern-Orthodox
    Well said. I'm accustomed to thinking almost entirely in penal terms because that's how I first heard it explained (from a Reformed perpective). I have come to realize that it was never THE only position in Christianity, not by a long shot, although it became codified in later confessions. "Atonement" became synonymous with "propitiate" or "satisfy," which is odd because it's more properly a synonymn of "reconcile" (at-one-ment)--make peace between to parties...the word does not say HOW that peace was made. I think the Roman emphasis on merit and punishment, esp. in the middle ages with purgatory and "temporal punishments," certainly polarized Luther and his sole focus became escaping the wrath and punishment of God. Rather than questioning that notion of punishment, the solution to the problem of purgatory was to have Christ be the one who received 100% of the punishment.

    I have read a few Orthodox views that flat-out deny that punishment/wrath/etc. has any place in any view of atonement--I can't buy that any more than a view that says it is the ONLY valid view of atonement. Your responses here seem balanced and reasonable.
     
    Macarius likes this.
  8. ArmyMatt

    ArmyMatt Regular Member

    Messages:
    15,190
    Likes Received:
    884
    Gender:
    Male
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Republican
    Faith:
    Eastern-Orthodox
    yeah the problem I think came when Anselm of Canterbury took it too literally.
     
  9. Knee V

    Knee V It's phonetic.

    Messages:
    7,528
    Likes Received:
    587
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Politics:
    US-Libertarian
    Faith:
    Eastern-Orthodox
    That is true to a certain extent. It is true in that ALL explanations are fundamentally wrong. But we're human beings who speak human languages using human words, and we need SOMETHING. They all have no place. But since ALL of them have no place, they all equally have a place.

    ...if that makes any sense...

    I think that, just as there is an "anti-Roman" sentiment in many protestant circles causing them to reject anything that looks or smells Roman, there is an "anti-Western" sentiment in many Orthodox circles, causing them to revolt against any kind of terminology that is used in "Western" theological circles.

    A word is only as powerful as the definition that we give it. So long as words are properly understood, there is no harm in using them.
     
    Christos Anesti likes this.
  10. Ignatius21

    Ignatius21 Can somebody please pass the incense?

    Messages:
    2,203
    Likes Received:
    222
    Gender:
    Male
    Marital Status:
    Married
    Faith:
    Eastern-Orthodox
    I appreciate your saying this. I've noticed a certain amount of phobia in all corners, where we like to define ourselves in opposition to something else and react against whatever sounds too much like "them." Rome-a-phobia is rampant among some Protestants (can't light candles in church, you know, 'cause that's Catholic, and that means it's idolatry...) and it seems West-a-phobia may happen on the Orthodox side.

    Neither is productive toward mutual understanding or productive conversation.
     
    Christos Anesti likes this.
Loading...