The Gospel

[stevenfrancis]

I'm sorry everyone, I have to go to bed now. I will be back on tonight. I'm enjoying this so much I'm afraid it will be hard for me to sleep. I love all of you, and thank you all so much for discussing this with me; especially you LoveofTruth. You've been bombarded with replies, and yet you are still kind enough to take your time and continue this discussion. Again, thank you all and God bless you.

This is a nice post to see. Thank you. God bless you as well.

 

[AVBunyan]

If we preach any other gospel as Paul warned the Galatians, we are cursed.
"

Well then if one believes he can lose salvation then he is preaching another gospel than Paul's for Paul preached faith plus nothing. If a person believes he can lose it then he is preaching a person must continue to do right and this is faith plus works. So, then a person who teaches loss of salvation is accursed. Sorry folks but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Well then if one believes he can lose salvation then he is preaching another gospel than Paul's for Paul preached faith plus nothing. If a person believes he can lose it then he is preaching a person must continue to do right and this is faith plus works. So, then a person who teaches loss of salvation is accursed. Sorry folks but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Sorry you are wrong again, we didn't get saved by our works and we don't lose it by our works, by grace through faith in the gospel is the way to be saved and to continue in the faith and not cast off our faith or deny the faith. But if our hearts get hardened through the deceitfulness of sin we can be hardened and have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God.

"1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling...12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;" Hebrews 3:1,12-14) Notice partakers of Christ, not just fellowship)

As clear as it gets,. If any man preaches that a believer cannot deny the faith and have an evil heart of unbelief. then they do not preach faith but a form of fatalism. And in some sense a different gospel. for they cannot believe the gospel and keep in memory the gospel, because they are like robots elected and predestined to be saved without any faith of their own or any receiving of the gospel.

It clear a believer can lose salvation as we see in the clear clear example of Judas Matthew 10 he was a sheep sent to the lost sheep, and given power etc.He was one of the 12 that belonged to Jesus.

and the works that believers are created to walk in are Gods works in us. it is God who makes believers perfect unto every good work through faith. By faith Jesus dwells in our hearts.

 

[anonymouswho]

Just felt led to write a little about what He has done in me. When He was first bringing me into His understanding of His Word (Christ) I felt so alone in this world, that I was the only one who was being shown these things (not knowing everything He was also doing in others), but what came to mind was: why do you feel alone? Am I not here with you? ..... what a sobering thought ..... He also give me a personal note with the words "all these things will be added to you" .... it was not just His understanding but ALL OF YOU that also are being shown the GOOD NEWS that have been added to me and I thank Him always for you all ...... for in doing so ... He has proved to me He is faithful to finish the work He started in me by bringing all of you across my path.

Thank you for sharing that. I felt the exact same way my friend. God has shown me so much in such a short amount of time, and at first I felt overwhelmed. I tried to talk to preachers, friends, and my family, but they either stated at me blankly or expressed deep concern for my soul. But I am fully "convinced" that nothing can separate us from the Love that God has shown us through His Son.

and also ...later coming to understand that He loves each and every one of us as if we are the only one in existence .... and that in itself is understanding we are partakers "IN HIS" Life.

His foundation has been laid and we are the lively stones being placed upon that foundation to be a house not built by the hands of men but BY THE FATHER

Blessings to you all my friends

Exactly. There is one Spirit that gives life to all men. This is God's Universe, but He has given all authority, all dominion, and all things to His Son. And now, we are called the Sons of God, because of the unending Love our Father has shown to us.

Thank my Brother and God bless you.

 

[anonymouswho]

There are some gigantic posts here like the one above which takes allegorical and poetic language and turns it all into literal eternal conscious torment of souls of human beings. For instance Matthew 25:41 which was quoted above speaks of goats, (which are a similar analogy with tares) but the passage never says anything about literal souls of literal human beings being sent into eternal conscious torment. As the passage clearly states: everlasting fire is prepared for the devil and his messenger-angels. I suppose the best way to cut to the chase, sort of speak, is to ask if the Father hated Esau "just because"? And if so then was Esau a literal human being with absolutely no chance? created simply for destruction? If one says yes to this then there is something rotten in Denmark. The Father hates sin, (which is personified as "entity" from the very beginning) but doubtless also the Father loves every creature of His creation and is longsuffering and patient not willing that any should perish. Therefore Esau is typology of the carnal man who thinks only according to his belly, like the serpent who was cursed to "walk" according to his belly, (Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of soup). So then, from one selfsame "lump of clay", (which is the man) come forth two vessels: a vessel, (of spirit) fit for destruction, and a vessel, (of spirit) unto honor, to the glory of the Father, (each in his or her own appointed times when a son is born into the kingdom). Therefore let us not reply against Elohim, saying, "Why have you made me this way?" Has not the Potter power over the clay? of the selfsame lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? Yes, He has the right, for He is the Potter and we are the clay. And when He destroys the first He breaks all the power of the holy people, (for their power at first is based in pride). It seems only then are we able to actually begin to hear.

Ha! I apologize for the long posts. The post above was a reply to my already extremely long posts. I get carried away sometimes. I absolutely agree with everything you've wrote here. I love Romans chapter 9. Definitely one of my favorites. It really upsets me that most Bible translations add the word "What" to Romans 9:22

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" Romans 9:22

They make this awesome, bold statement of wisdom into a hypothetical question. Paul asks several rhetorical questions, but I'm not aware of any hypothetical questions that Paul ever asks. He is fully convinced that what he is saying is true.

Anyways, thank you so much my friend. God bless you.

 

[anonymouswho]

Sure. What I mean is, the subtext and groundwork for everything that was in the list I responded to, would have been known to the audience of Paul, which was various small 'c' churches, (like parishes), who were already followers of "the way". Many of whom were either Jews or at least had good knowledge of Jewish custom, practice, liturgy and beliefs.

The Epistles and the Acts of the Apostles are the Gospels brought forward into the framework of the Church. Of daily life. Of putting Christ to work in the world of living breathing, flawed human beings. The Apostles were given the authority of Jesus Christ, and were inspired and strengthened by the Holy Ghost. The epistles are the edicts of Christ which carry forth FROM the Gospels.

Yes, I do agree with you. I thought I understood what you were saying, but I wanted to make sure.

Paul was a very intelligent man, and I refer to his Epistles as Scripture because I do believe the Spirit taught him. However, neither the Gospels nor the Epistles are technically Scripture. They refer to Scripture within themselves! This means that it is the Hebrew Scriptures that we are to study to show ourselves approved. It is the Hebrew Scriptures that are God-breathed. This means that everything we read about in the Gospel and Epistles must be tested against the Hebrew Scriptures. This is why Peter bluntly warns us

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen." 2 Peter 3:15

Having said all this, I could also produce for the poster, if asked, (but I was trying not to be contentious), passages from the Gospels themselves which are supportive of much of what was in the list anyway, so I didn't think the post itself was an honest one.

You seem very kind,

God bless and keep you,

Steven

Please feel free to post anything you like here. As long as the mods don't mind, I don't care what is posted here, because anything written in Scripture is the sweetest music to my ears.

Thank my good friend and God bless you.

 

[daq]

Ha! I apologize for the long posts. The post above was a reply to my already extremely long posts. I get carried away sometimes. I absolutely agree with everything you've wrote here. I love Romans chapter 9. Definitely one of my favorites. It really upsets me that most Bible translations add the word "What" to Romans 9:22

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" Romans 9:22

They make this awesome, bold statement of wisdom into a hypothetical question. Paul asks several rhetorical questions, but I'm not aware of any hypothetical questions that Paul ever asks. He is fully convinced that what he is saying is true.

Anyways, thank you so much my friend. God bless you.

Yes, what you say of that passage rings true.

"IF" is there but there do not appear to be any corresponding interrogatives, ( "e", "tis", "pos", etc., ). It can and should be read, (imo) something like as follows:

"But if Elohim desires to show His wrath, and to make His power known, [He] endures with much long-suffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: so that also He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He beforehand prepared unto glory: even us, whom He also called, not from the Yhudim only, but also from the Nations."

 

[anonymouswho]

Just because many will be in the lake of fire forever and their fire shall never be quenched does not negate that God is a loving God. God is love no matter what other creatures do or where they end up. And remember that God did not originally have the lake of fire in His creation. He created the lake of fire for the devil and his angels at first. Then all those who who hate the light and are in darkness of unbelief and sin shall be cast in there as well.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Hello my friend. Thank you for your reply.

I have one problem in particular with what was said above. You say that the Lake of Fire was "originally intended" for the Devil and his angels. Does this mean that God created the Lake of Fire, but when mankind thwarted His will in the Garden, He had to resort to a plan B that involves torturing at least 90% of the billion and billions of people that have all lived on Earth?

On what day did God make this place called hell? When did He create the Lake of Fire. Genesis 1 says that God created ALL things in Six Days, and on the Seventh Day, He rested from ALL of His work. If there is a literal Hell, then in order to hold all the people that presently live (as well as the billions of people that have died), it would have to be massively bigger than Earth. Why does it not even get a sentence in Genesis 1?

Also, if our Father "needs" to torture and burn any one of His creations for trillions and trillions and trillions...of eternal, never ending, never forgiving years, then no, God cannot be Love. He created every person that has ever lived without ever consulting them first. He put the Muslim in Iraq. He put the pagan in Rome. He made each person with their own Unique physical features, minds, families, communities, countries, and experiences.

Before I was born, there was no angel that came and asked "God would like to give you a choice. Make it of your own free will. Would you like to be annihilated right now, or would you like the opportunity to live forever? However, there's a catch. You will not know anything when you are born, God is going to put you wherever He has determined you should go, and there's about a 95% chance that you will either be an unbeliever, or you will be a heretic. If this happens, you will be burned and tormented. And this won't just last for ever. It will last forever and ever!"

If I told that angel yes, then surely the Love of God would have led Him to destroy me right then for making such a stupid decision.

Was God any less loving in His nature when he judged the old world with a flood or when he drove out man from the garden of Eden? Or was God any less in His nature a loving perfect Holy and all knowing powerful God when he told Saul and the Jews to kill every man woman and child of the Amalek?

"2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."(1 Samuel 15:2,3)

or is this the God you know how do you in your understanding answer for when the Holy God of the bible did such things??

Numbers 21:6
"And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died."

I could go on for pages and pages of these type of judgements but I think you see the point. These things God did never made Him n the slightest less the Holy Loving God that he is. We just see His wrath and anger at sin and His rebuke of men.

My friend, are you still not carnal? Do you not know that God works all things after the council of His own will? Do you not know that God makes peace, and creates evil?

Please my friend, listen carefully to the following Scripture, and then know that God does indeed do all things:

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever." Deuteronomy 32:39

"The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up." 1 Samuel 2:6

"And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD." Job 1:21

"For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole." Job 5:18

Remember when Saul committed suicide?

"Then said Saul to his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. " 1 Chronicles 10:4

It says Saul took his own life, and it even gives the reason why he made that decision. But who actually killed Saul?

"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
And enquired not of the LORD: therefore HE slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse." 1 Chronicles 10:13

My friend, God kills everyone. And He will raise everyone on the determined Day. He will teach all men righteousness, and everyone will know that He is the One True God, and that His Son Yeshua is Lord. This IS Eternal Life.

I think it is God that you are having trouble with and His nature and character. To you a loving God could never send a person to hell or the lake of fire. To many it seems that if God were to do this he would cease being a loving God. But they do not know the true God then and His holy love and character.

I assure you my brother, I have no problem with God's nature, nor His character. These two things are why I am so fond of Him.

You are greatly in error and some confusion here, God is a Spirit and Jesus Christ is God the Son, and he now has a body as we read,

"...according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;" (Acts 2:30 KJV)

Luke 24:39
"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

and we speak of mysteries that are not fully known, but for sure Jesus rose again according to the flesh, and all believers will be like he is,

"2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2 KJV)

These are mysteries as to what body we will have, but it is a different body than we now have yet we will still be in a body and so will others who reject him. But there will be a difference.

"39 All flesh is not the same flesh:...42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body....51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1 Cor 15:39,42-44, 51-53)

Yes, Yeshua came in the flesh. He was a human man. He died, and was risen three days later. He was sown in corruptible flesh, and raised in incorruptible spirit. Yeshua indeed has a "spiritual body" of flesh and blood, but it is not a "natural" body. Fire burns natural bodies. Yeshua lives to this day, and as you said, He has eyes of Fire. Does this not burn Him?

Consider the devil. He is also thrown into the Lake of Fire, with death and hell. Do death and hell have nerves? Does the devil? The devil definitely doesn't have human flesh, so how does this fire burn these things? How do you hurt death?

When we think of the lake of fire where the devil and His angels are sent Jesus said believers shall be as the angels in heaven. So whatever type of body they have we may have similar. This body is obviously capable of being tormented and never dying, that makes the the lake of fire even worse. We also read of a resurrection of life and a RESURRECTION of damnation

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

So those who are Resurrected from the dead in some form they are in a new state. What all these things are and to understand such things is only given in part. As John said, "and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: " we can say the same for those who are resurrected unto damnation. It seems that they will have a body that will be able to be tormented day and night forever and ever and their fire shall never be quenched ever.

The Scriptures do not speak of a "Resurrection of Damnation". What does "damn" mean, especially to a 16th century Englishman?

The Greek translated damnation is κρίσις (krisis), and according to Strong's Concordance, κρίσις means:

"judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation."

It is the Resurrection unto Judgment, when the Father will Judge the world in Righteousness:

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." Isaiah 26:9

The Scriptures do not say anything about men being raised in a different body than another. We are all sown in corruption, and we will all be raised incorruptible. Who makes us differ from another?

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" 1 Corinthians 4:55

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by HIS grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3:22

The natural body sleeps in the grave the spirit goes up. What kind of body the Spirit body is , again is a mystery. Yet he was in torments on the flames. We cannot understand some tings yet and when men try they create all sorts of error and things like universalism etc.

First I want to show you what the KJV says in its header before this story:

"The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus"

This is a parable. It did not really happen and it will never happen. If we examine this passage, we will see that it is impossible for this story to be taken as Gehenna:

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:"

We see the Rich man is wearing purple (royalty) and fine linen. Who else wore fine linen?

"....and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen." Exodus 28:4

The Rich man was wearing the same clothes as the people Yeshua was talking too:

"And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him." Luke 16:14

The Rich man is not a real person.

"And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores."

Interesting fact. Yeshua spoke Aramaic. Here is what Strong's Concordance says about Lazarus:

"Lazarus, Eliezer, (a) the beggar, (b) the brother of Martha and Mary, of Bethany."

(Also, Thayer's Concordance says of Lazarus: an imaginary person, extremely poor and wretched)

Poor Eliezer is not given the credit that he deserves, but he was a humble man that served his Lord Abraham well. This is what the Scriptures say of Eliezer:

"After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir." Genesis 15:1

Eliezer was Abraham's most faithful servant, and Abraham was prepared to make him heir of all his possessions. But God says that Eliezer will not be heir, it will be of Abraham's own seed. Abraham was the first Hebrew, so this would make Eliezer a Gentile.

After Abraham had Isaac, Eliezer knew for sure that he would receive nothing. It must have been hard to think that you would receive all these great possessions, and then see it go to somebody else. But Eliezer was a faithful servant. Rather than hinder Isaac's birthright, he goes out to find a wife for the very man that took everything from him!

"And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:
And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:
But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac." Genesis 24:1

Lazarus was not a real person.

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;"

Where is Abraham's bosom? Is this our destiny? To be in the bosom of a man? This verse is not literal:

"Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." Romans 11:19

And in hell (δης: Hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The Rich man is in Hades, the unseen, the destination of all mankind. In Hebrew, this is called שְׁאוֹל (Sheol), and every man will go there. This verse says nothing about "hell".

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

I highly, highly doubt if someone is in that terrible disgusting place called "hell", they would really be concerned about a "drop of water". Besides, there is plenty of water around already, as we will soon see. But first:

"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:14

This is not literal water.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Do you see how God had given the Jews everything. They are His chosen people. He gave then the Law and the Prophets and every Spiritual blessing. Now, there is something different that is about to take place.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

A gulf is: a deep inlet of the sea almost surrounded by land, with a narrow mouth. There is water all around this place. Why did the Rich man need Lazarus to give him a drop of water, if he could have just walked to the gulf?

"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." Romans 11:7

The gulf is not a literal gulf.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

"And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard it. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:
The sons of Leah; 1)Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and 2)Simeon, and 3)Levi, and Judah, and 4)Issachar, and 5)Zebulun" Genesis 35:22

The Pharisees knew exactly who the Rich man was. There are not five literal brothers.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Who has Moses and the Prophets? The Jews.

Who doesn't have Moses and the Prophets? Lazarus the Gentile.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Now do you see my friend?

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:19

Who rose from the Dead? Yeshua our Lord and the Savior off all mankind!

(Note: I take no credit for the interpretation of this parable. This was revealed to me by much better studied men)

The ones who are resurrected to damnation, will be just like dead carcsses, they will be an abhorring unto all flesh, the word "abhorring , means an OBJECT of aversion, contempt, repulsed. Whatever form they are in they are an OBJECT of contempt. I have spoken of the resurrection of damnation for such and these things are not detailed as to the nature and form of such bodies. We have some information but not all.

Again, there is no Resurrection of Damnation.

No wood hay and stubble are the works men do when not acting in rest, gold silver and prescious stones are the works they do in rest in Christ.

No they are not my friend. Paul says:

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble" 1 Corinthians 3:12

He makes no distinction of persons, and in the end he says:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:15

This is one man with both combustible material and non combustible material. The fire rids him of the combustible, and refines the non combustible.

However, if you wish to believe that this is about believers and unbelievers, then why does it say "but he himself shall be saved"?

Universalism speaks against the truth of the scriptures and so causes divisions and therefore is a heresy. It doesn' tmatter to me what men believed after the early writers penned the scriptures. many errors crept into the church from that time on.And it takes time for heretical doctrines to develope sometimes and to make their way through the various gatherings.

What is more logical? That the men who were there had it right, or that 300 to now 2000 years later, we have a better understanding of half of the things the Ancients experienced?

Among the Catholics Many deny the Lord and that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16 by Paul) or that Jesus Christ came in the flesh,hey are the spirit of anti Christ as John said in 1 John. God stil will tell His people to come out of Babylon the Great Mother of harlots.

Well, I assure you my friend, I believe Yeshua came in the flesh.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." John 5:25

God did not fail. Jesus said broad is the way that leadeth to destruction and many go that way but narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it. to them alone will death be swallowed up in victory.

Thank you so much for bringing this up. I was hoping I would get to discuss this with you. You mentioned the manifestation of the sons of God. I'll let Paul explain this because he is a much better writer than I. But first, remember the Scriptures cannot be broken:

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; ALL is VANITY." Ecclesiastes 1:2

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Romans 8:18

Why does the creation "wait" for our manifestation? So we can throw them into a Lake of Fire where they will be tormented forever and ever?

What creature shall "also" be delivered from the bondage of corruption?

Why does the "whole creation" groan and travail "until now"?

And why at the end, does Paul say "not only, but we also"?

All is Vanity. Religion is always trying to put meaning to our lives, but the simple fact is, All is Vanity. Thus says the Scriptures.

No you misunderstand this section this is not meaning that men who have faith will go to the lake of ire as you seem to be implying to have their works burned up until they are not w pure. If that's is the kind of thing you are saying.

These wood hay and stubble are not speaking specifically about sin. Sin is not mentioned there. But the quality of the work done or the weakness and value of it. This verse is not talking about not having any works either and still being saved James 2 talks of a saving faith will have good works with it. If the good works are lacking, such is not a saving faith. If God is working in us we have His works in some measure, and he works in those who have faith. The acts of righteousness that men do with impure motives are wood hay and stubble. A man can give to the poor and pray and do other things that are done with a wrong motive and so these things are not sin in themselves abut the heart condition is not right. "6 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 6:1)

I've already addressed 1 Corinthians 3 above. Also, why are you talking about "quality of works"? You say that the quality of our works matter, but then staunchly oppose anyone preaching works. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I would sincerely like you to explain this to me.

But as far as tried by fire in 1 Corinthians 3:11, Jesus will search the hearts and he has eyes as a flame of fire

Revelation 1:14
His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;"

"18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first....20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee," (Revelation 2:18,19,20)

We also read of fiery trials in this life and being purified in this life by fire and the baptism of the Holy Ghost and with fire,


1 Peter 4:12
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:"

Revelation 3:18
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich;"

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"

First, I have to disagree that Yeshua's eyes are what put us through this fiery trial.1 Corinthians 3 speaks of a Day. The same Day that all the prophets spike about.

"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Acts 17:31

Other than that, I absolutely agree that we go through the Fire now:

"And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
For EVERY ONE shall be salted with FIRE" Mark 9:45

Whatever the lake of fire is and whatever hell is, those who suffer in them will have a body, what kind of spiritual body or different body that is, is not clear in scripture. But we can safely say they will be resurrected unto damnation, and we read of the rich man in some body form in hell with eyes and mouth and body in flames. God can do all things and however he does this it will happen.

Do you really believe that God is able do ALL THINGS?

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I WILL do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I WILL also do it." Isaiah 46:9

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who WILL have ALL men to be SAVED, and to come unto the KNOWLEDGE of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3

"And this IS life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Thank you so much my friend. You have truly been a blessing to me. God bless you my brother.

 

[anonymouswho]

Yes, what you say of that passage rings true.

"IF" is there but there does not appear to be a corresponding interrogative particle, (i.e. #4459 "pos"). It can and should be read, (imo) something like as follows:

"But if Elohim desires to show His wrath, and to make His power known, [He] endures with much long-suffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: so that also He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He beforehand prepared unto glory: even us, whom He also called, not from the Yhudim only, but also from the Nations."

Thanks for looking into that. Check out these various translations:

"What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?" NIV

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" ESV

"What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?" NASB

"And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction?" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Now if God wants to demonstrate his wrath and reveal his power, can't he be extremely patient with the objects of his wrath that are made for destruction?" ISV

"But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction?" NET

http://biblehub.com/romans/9-22.htm

There's plenty more. At least the KJV italicized What so that we could decide for ourselves. The other translations treat it as though it's really there.

Is Young's Literal translation the only one that gets it?

"And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call — us — "

Thank you my friend and God bless you.

 

[anonymouswho]

Universalism speaks against the truth of the scriptures and so causes divisions and therefore is a heresy. It doesn' tmatter to me what men believed after the early writers penned the scriptures. many errors crept into the church from that time on.And it takes time for heretical doctrines to develope sometimes and to make their way through the various gatherings.

Hello my Brother. I wanted to apologize. I reread the post I left you, and I feel like I was being pretty arrogant. I just want you to know that it is not you that I am speaking against. Eternal hell is what I am against, and this is "who" I am speaking to. Like I said, I used to believe in it too, so I have no right to judge another for their belief. Anyways, I really have no excuse, and I'm sincerly sorry my friend. God bless you.

 

[2KnowHim]

Eternal hell is what I am against,

Yes me too.. Most Traditionalists read "eternal punishment" as "eternal punishing" as an ongoing thing. The destuction of the wicked is eternal "aionios" not because the process of destruction continues forever, but because the Results are permanent. Eternal often refers to the permanence of the Result, rather than the continuation of a process. It is evident that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal not because of it's duration, but because of it's permanent Results.

Understanding this also gives The Lake of fire a Purpose of Redemption rather than an ongoing torment. Once it has accomplished it's purpose, the results of it is Life. Death is swallowed up in victory... "Life".
If our Father did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them, then I'm sure He did not come to torment them forever either.
And if Jesus rebuked his own disciples for wanting to call down fire from Heaven to destroy men, then what must He think of those who say they know that He will not only destroy, but then torment them forever. I'll tell you what He thinks, they know not what spirit they are of. And this is why we try to persuade men from this horrible picture of our Father, God is Love, and this sort of thing never came into His mind, only the carnal mind of men, which is God's enemy, I know because I was once in this place also. We speak from experience not to just use the word as a Sword against our brothers and sisters, but we speak out of The Love we have been shown to us by our Father.

Blessings my Brother

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hello my friend. Thank you for your reply.

I have one problem in particular with what was said above. You say that the Lake of Fire was "originally intended" for the Devil and his angels.

Hello again,

I merely quoted scripture, I didnt make up this idea,

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Does this mean that God created the Lake of Fire, but when mankind thwarted His will in the Garden, He had to resort to a plan B that involves torturing at least 90% of the billion and billions of people that have all lived on Earth?

It means that when the Devil sinned, some time before man was created . Those who reject Gods salvation will also be cast into there.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

On what day did God make this place called hell? When did He create the Lake of Fire.

There is not a detailed description of this in the bible, all we know is that it was prepared for the devil and his angels and all who are not written in the book of life are cast into there. But God di not originally create this until The devil and His angels sinned.

Genesis 1 says that God created ALL things in Six Days, and on the Seventh Day, He rested from ALL of His work. If there is a literal Hell, then in order to hold all the people that presently live (as well as the billions of people that have died), it would have to be massively bigger than Earth. Why does it not even get a sentence in Genesis 1?

This again, like many arguments you bring here is your human understanding and carnal thinking. If something seems to hard for your mind to understand you deny it it seems. this is not right,


Isaiah 5:14
Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it."

We are speaking of things that are in mystery in another realm. And just remember this word

Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Also, if our Father "needs" to torture and burn any one of His creations for trillions and trillions and trillions...of eternal, never ending, never forgiving years, then no, God cannot be Love. He created every person that has ever lived without ever consulting them first. He put the Muslim in Iraq. He put the pagan in Rome. He made each person with their own Unique physical features, minds, families, communities, countries, and experiences.

Again this is your human understanding and not understanding of the nature of God.

You say "if God needs to". The word needs is your word, Think of this simple example, if the Sun is a consuming fire and will burn up all that come too close to it. Do we say the Sun "needs" to burn up anything that comes to it. or do we just say the Sun is by its very nature a hot flaming fire and it can be no other. God is a consuming fire and cannot and will not embrace sin. If any try to come to him outside of His provision and being in Christ they will be judged and cast away and none can approach him any other way. God is not willing that any should perish, and so when they wont cme to Him they chose not to. God wants all men to come to repentance, but not all will. jesus said how often he would have gathered them together but "they would not".

God is love, Holy love and he is also a Judged. Men should fear God who can cast both body and soul into hell.

Before I was born, there was no angel that came and asked "God would like to give you a choice. Make it of your own free will. Would you like to be annihilated right now, or would you like the opportunity to live forever? However, there's a catch. You will not know anything when you are born, God is going to put you wherever He has determined you should go, and there's about a 95% chance that you will either be an unbeliever, or you will be a heretic. If this happens, you will be burned and tormented. And this won't just last for ever. It will last forever and ever!"

"19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" (Romans 9:19,20)

Salvation is a free gift to man. God wants all to be saved

My friend, are you still not carnal? Do you not know that God works all things after the council of His own will? Do you not know that God makes peace, and creates evil?

Are you not carnal to use the words "makes peace, and creates evil" in the way you do. The word evil here means

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

the word "evil" here means,"adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, .

God cannot be tempted with evil, nor tempteth He any man,

"13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and entice." (James 1:13,14)

as God makes peace he can also bring calamity and distress.

I hope no man will say that God can lie or change or deny himself. Satan is the father of lies. There are many things that God does not do. And Yes God can judge and overpower men in their paths, and men still have free will. God is just mightier than all. Yes God has killed many and judged the world in the flood etc. But..

But this is a true verse,

"...is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid." Galatians 2:17

My friend, God kills everyone.

Yes God has killed many and judged the world in the flood etc. But..


God commanded Moses to "17 Now therefore kill every male" (Numbers 31:17) So who did the killing here?

and

"...Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;" (Genesis 4:8-11)

Cain killed Abel, not God. Just as Satan sinned against God God did not make him Satan is the father of lies, not God. etc etc

"12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"(Romans 5:12)

How did death enter the world?

and we read,

"6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." Genesis 9:6

Yes, Yeshua came in the flesh. He was a human man. He died, and was risen three days later. He was sown in corruptible flesh

What do you mean, Jesus had "corruptible flesh". The bible says he had no sin, and he was the second Adam, He didn't have a human father or the blood line from the man and so no sin. He is called "this holy thing", in Luke not this corruptible thing. Also we read,

"... God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"(Romans 8:3)

Notice in the "likeness of sinful flesh" it didn't say in sinful flesh. But this is a complex discussion for another post maybe.

Yeshua indeed has a "spiritual body" of flesh and blood,

No, we read

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

It doesn't say "flesh and blood" as you said.

Consider the devil. He is also thrown into the Lake of Fire, with death and hell. Do death and hell have nerves? Does the devil? The devil definitely doesn't have human flesh, so how does this fire burn these things? How do you hurt death?

This is again your natural understanding, not spiritual. God can make the lake of fire burn the bodies they will have and do have.

The Scriptures do not speak of a "Resurrection of Damnation".

Again, you speak contrary to the scriptures,

"...and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."(John 5:29)

"damnation, meaning, condemnation, damnation". This condemnation will be in the lake of fire that shall never be quenched.

The verse clearly says that the resurrection unto damnation is the opposite of the resurrection unto life. Those who are not in the life are in the damnation and condemnation of the lake of fire.

The Scriptures do not say anything about men being raised in a different body than another. We are all sown in corruption, and we will all be raised incorruptible. Who makes us differ from another?

Whatever body the damned are raised in they will be in such a body that can be tormented day and night forever and their fire shall never be quenched and their worm shall not die and there shall be wailing and nashing of teeth etc .

First I want to show you what the KJV says in its header before this story:

"The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus"

This is a parable. It did not really happen and it will never happen. If we examine this passage, we will see that it is impossible for this story to be taken as Gehenna:

No, it matters not what men add to their footnotes or headings and this is a story of real events most likely, even if it were a parable, (which i do not see it being) it would not change the truths told therein). The text does not say it was a parable. Jesus used names unlike other parables and he spoke of men dying and going to hell, and paradise. This would be confusing to say to the least if there was no such place and if the dead were not conscious after death as Jesus clearly shows they are and if men were not in torments in hell. Jesus on other occassions spoke of the wailing and nashing of teeth and horrors of hell. This is in line with his teaching. This clearly corrects your thinking. And God is not the authour of confusion.

Christ assumes in his words that men are not annihilated at death and that there is a real conscious state after death and some go to a place of paradise and others to a place of damnation and horror. The text is very clear and the images are very clear. It is twsiting and seeking to escape the weight of such a story because of false doctrines that men try to avoid the simple truths stated. I can break down every point of the argument you gave (or that you quoted) but it is a lengthy discussion maybe for another post.

Some do not see the truth of God even in the OT

"45 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,46 Son of man, set thy face toward the south, and drop thy word toward the south, and prophesy against the forest of the south field;47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the Lord; Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.48 And all flesh shall see that I the Lord have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.49 Then said I, Ah Lord God! they say of me, Doth he not speak parables?" (Ezekiel 20:45-48)

when Jesus interprets even parables and speaks of the seed and filed the world, good seed children of the kingdom, the enemy the devil and the reapers are the angels. Even though some parables were spoken they have real meanings as well. The tares are gathered an burned in the fire. Jesus spoke of the tares as the children of the devil will burn in flames in reality. So shall it be in the end of the world, Jesus interprets the parable and says they shall be cast into a furnace of fire. Sp even the parable actually speaks of flames and terror.

Here is a real parable

"24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."(Matthew 13:24-30 KJV)

And now the interpretation of the "parable"

"36 Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 13:36-43 KJV)

Where is Abraham's bosom? Is this our destiny? To be in the bosom of a man? This verse is not literal:

To be in Abrahams bosom, is simply meaning to be in rest and comfort in paradise. Not complicated at all.

Abraham is called the father of a many of nations. So instead of saying they were going to their people or their fathers they started to call it Abraham’s bosom. He is referenced as being in faith and believers are of the same faith etc.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who WILL have ALL men to be SAVED, and to come unto the KNOWLEDGE of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3

Yes God is not willing that any should persih, yet many will. This simply shows Gods good intention to offer salvation to all who come to him by faith. Jesus also would have gathered people but they would not

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hello my Brother. I wanted to apologize. I reread the post I left you, and I feel like I was being pretty arrogant. I just want you to know that it is not you that I am speaking against. Eternal hell is what I am against, and this is "who" I am speaking to. Like I said, I used to believe in it too, so I have no right to judge another for their belief. Anyways, I really have no excuse, and I'm sincerly sorry my friend. God bless you.

I am not offended, its ok, I am not against men standing firm in their belief, but when truth comes let it shake all things.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hello my friend. Thank you for your reply.

I have one problem in particular with what was said above. You say that the Lake of Fire was "originally intended" for the Devil and his angels. Does this mean that God created the Lake of Fire, but when mankind thwarted His will in the Garden, He had to resort to a plan B that involves torturing at least 90% of the billion and billions of people that have all lived on Earth?

On what day did God make this place called hell? When did He create the Lake of Fire. Genesis 1 says that God created ALL things in Six Days, and on the Seventh Day, He rested from ALL of His work. If there is a literal Hell, then in order to hold all the people that presently live (as well as the billions of people that have died), it would have to be massively bigger than Earth. Why does it not even get a sentence in Genesis 1?

Also, if our Father "needs" to torture and burn any one of His creations for trillions and trillions and trillions...of eternal, never ending, never forgiving years, then no, God cannot be Love. He created every person that has ever lived without ever consulting them first. He put the Muslim in Iraq. He put the pagan in Rome. He made each person with their own Unique physical features, minds, families, communities, countries, and experiences.

Before I was born, there was no angel that came and asked "God would like to give you a choice. Make it of your own free will. Would you like to be annihilated right now, or would you like the opportunity to live forever? However, there's a catch. You will not know anything when you are born, God is going to put you wherever He has determined you should go, and there's about a 95% chance that you will either be an unbeliever, or you will be a heretic. If this happens, you will be burned and tormented. And this won't just last for ever. It will last forever and ever!"

If I told that angel yes, then surely the Love of God would have led Him to destroy me right then for making such a stupid decision.



My friend, are you still not carnal? Do you not know that God works all things after the council of His own will? Do you not know that God makes peace, and creates evil?

Please my friend, listen carefully to the following Scripture, and then know that God does indeed do all things:

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever." Deuteronomy 32:39

"The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up." 1 Samuel 2:6

"And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD." Job 1:21

"For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole." Job 5:18

Remember when Saul committed suicide?

"Then said Saul to his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. " 1 Chronicles 10:4

It says Saul took his own life, and it even gives the reason why he made that decision. But who actually killed Saul?

"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
And enquired not of the LORD: therefore HE slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse." 1 Chronicles 10:13

My friend, God kills everyone. And He will raise everyone on the determined Day. He will teach all men righteousness, and everyone will know that He is the One True God, and that His Son Yeshua is Lord. This IS Eternal Life.



I assure you my brother, I have no problem with God's nature, nor His character. These two things are why I am so fond of Him.



Yes, Yeshua came in the flesh. He was a human man. He died, and was risen three days later. He was sown in corruptible flesh, and raised in incorruptible spirit. Yeshua indeed has a "spiritual body" of flesh and blood, but it is not a "natural" body. Fire burns natural bodies. Yeshua lives to this day, and as you said, He has eyes of Fire. Does this not burn Him?

Consider the devil. He is also thrown into the Lake of Fire, with death and hell. Do death and hell have nerves? Does the devil? The devil definitely doesn't have human flesh, so how does this fire burn these things? How do you hurt death?



The Scriptures do not speak of a "Resurrection of Damnation". What does "damn" mean, especially to a 16th century Englishman?

The Greek translated damnation is κρίσις (krisis), and according to Strong's Concordance, κρίσις means:

"judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation."

It is the Resurrection unto Judgment, when the Father will Judge the world in Righteousness:

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." Isaiah 26:9

The Scriptures do not say anything about men being raised in a different body than another. We are all sown in corruption, and we will all be raised incorruptible. Who makes us differ from another?

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" 1 Corinthians 4:55

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by HIS grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3:22



First I want to show you what the KJV says in its header before this story:

"The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus"

This is a parable. It did not really happen and it will never happen. If we examine this passage, we will see that it is impossible for this story to be taken as Gehenna:

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:"

We see the Rich man is wearing purple (royalty) and fine linen. Who else wore fine linen?

"....and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen." Exodus 28:4

The Rich man was wearing the same clothes as the people Yeshua was talking too:

"And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him." Luke 16:14

The Rich man is not a real person.

"And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores."

Interesting fact. Yeshua spoke Aramaic. Here is what Strong's Concordance says about Lazarus:

"Lazarus, Eliezer, (a) the beggar, (b) the brother of Martha and Mary, of Bethany."

(Also, Thayer's Concordance says of Lazarus: an imaginary person, extremely poor and wretched)

Poor Eliezer is not given the credit that he deserves, but he was a humble man that served his Lord Abraham well. This is what the Scriptures say of Eliezer:

"After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir." Genesis 15:1

Eliezer was Abraham's most faithful servant, and Abraham was prepared to make him heir of all his possessions. But God says that Eliezer will not be heir, it will be of Abraham's own seed. Abraham was the first Hebrew, so this would make Eliezer a Gentile.

After Abraham had Isaac, Eliezer knew for sure that he would receive nothing. It must have been hard to think that you would receive all these great possessions, and then see it go to somebody else. But Eliezer was a faithful servant. Rather than hinder Isaac's birthright, he goes out to find a wife for the very man that took everything from him!

"And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:
And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:
But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac." Genesis 24:1

Lazarus was not a real person.

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;"

Where is Abraham's bosom? Is this our destiny? To be in the bosom of a man? This verse is not literal:

"Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." Romans 11:19

And in hell (δης: Hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The Rich man is in Hades, the unseen, the destination of all mankind. In Hebrew, this is called שְׁאוֹל (Sheol), and every man will go there. This verse says nothing about "hell".

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

I highly, highly doubt if someone is in that terrible disgusting place called "hell", they would really be concerned about a "drop of water". Besides, there is plenty of water around already, as we will soon see. But first:

"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:14

This is not literal water.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Do you see how God had given the Jews everything. They are His chosen people. He gave then the Law and the Prophets and every Spiritual blessing. Now, there is something different that is about to take place.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

A gulf is: a deep inlet of the sea almost surrounded by land, with a narrow mouth. There is water all around this place. Why did the Rich man need Lazarus to give him a drop of water, if he could have just walked to the gulf?

"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." Romans 11:7

The gulf is not a literal gulf.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

"And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard it. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:
The sons of Leah; 1)Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and 2)Simeon, and 3)Levi, and Judah, and 4)Issachar, and 5)Zebulun" Genesis 35:22

The Pharisees knew exactly who the Rich man was. There are not five literal brothers.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Who has Moses and the Prophets? The Jews.

Who doesn't have Moses and the Prophets? Lazarus the Gentile.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Now do you see my friend?

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:19

Who rose from the Dead? Yeshua our Lord and the Savior off all mankind!

(Note: I take no credit for the interpretation of this parable. This was revealed to me by much better studied men)



Again, there is no Resurrection of Damnation.



No they are not my friend. Paul says:

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble" 1 Corinthians 3:12

He makes no distinction of persons, and in the end he says:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:15

This is one man with both combustible material and non combustible material. The fire rids him of the combustible, and refines the non combustible.

However, if you wish to believe that this is about believers and unbelievers, then why does it say "but he himself shall be saved"?



What is more logical? That the men who were there had it right, or that 300 to now 2000 years later, we have a better understanding of half of the things the Ancients experienced?



Well, I assure you my friend, I believe Yeshua came in the flesh.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." John 5:25



Thank you so much for bringing this up. I was hoping I would get to discuss this with you. You mentioned the manifestation of the sons of God. I'll let Paul explain this because he is a much better writer than I. But first, remember the Scriptures cannot be broken:

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; ALL is VANITY." Ecclesiastes 1:2

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Romans 8:18

Why does the creation "wait" for our manifestation? So we can throw them into a Lake of Fire where they will be tormented forever and ever?

What creature shall "also" be delivered from the bondage of corruption?

Why does the "whole creation" groan and travail "until now"?

And why at the end, does Paul say "not only, but we also"?

All is Vanity. Religion is always trying to put meaning to our lives, but the simple fact is, All is Vanity. Thus says the Scriptures.



I've already addressed 1 Corinthians 3 above. Also, why are you talking about "quality of works"? You say that the quality of our works matter, but then staunchly oppose anyone preaching works. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I would sincerely like you to explain this to me.


First, I have to disagree that Yeshua's eyes are what put us through this fiery trial.1 Corinthians 3 speaks of a Day. The same Day that all the prophets spike about.

"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Acts 17:31

Other than that, I absolutely agree that we go through the Fire now:

"And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
For EVERY ONE shall be salted with FIRE" Mark 9:45



Do you really believe that God is able do ALL THINGS?

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I WILL do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I WILL also do it." Isaiah 46:9

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who WILL have ALL men to be SAVED, and to come unto the KNOWLEDGE of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3

"And this IS life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Thank you so much my friend. You have truly been a blessing to me. God bless you my brother.

Hello again,

I merely quoted scripture, I didnt make up this idea,

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hello my friend. Thank you for your reply.

I have one problem in particular with what was said above. You say that the Lake of Fire was "originally intended" for the Devil and his angels. Does this mean that God created the Lake of Fire, but when mankind thwarted His will in the Garden, He had to resort to a plan B that involves torturing at least 90% of the billion and billions of people that have all lived on Earth?

On what day did God make this place called hell? When did He create the Lake of Fire. Genesis 1 says that God created ALL things in Six Days, and on the Seventh Day, He rested from ALL of His work. If there is a literal Hell, then in order to hold all the people that presently live (as well as the billions of people that have died), it would have to be massively bigger than Earth. Why does it not even get a sentence in Genesis 1?

Also, if our Father "needs" to torture and burn any one of His creations for trillions and trillions and trillions...of eternal, never ending, never forgiving years, then no, God cannot be Love. He created every person that has ever lived without ever consulting them first. He put the Muslim in Iraq. He put the pagan in Rome. He made each person with their own Unique physical features, minds, families, communities, countries, and experiences.

Before I was born, there was no angel that came and asked "God would like to give you a choice. Make it of your own free will. Would you like to be annihilated right now, or would you like the opportunity to live forever? However, there's a catch. You will not know anything when you are born, God is going to put you wherever He has determined you should go, and there's about a 95% chance that you will either be an unbeliever, or you will be a heretic. If this happens, you will be burned and tormented. And this won't just last for ever. It will last forever and ever!"

If I told that angel yes, then surely the Love of God would have led Him to destroy me right then for making such a stupid decision.



My friend, are you still not carnal? Do you not know that God works all things after the council of His own will? Do you not know that God makes peace, and creates evil?

Please my friend, listen carefully to the following Scripture, and then know that God does indeed do all things:

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever." Deuteronomy 32:39

"The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up." 1 Samuel 2:6

"And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD." Job 1:21

"For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole." Job 5:18

Remember when Saul committed suicide?

"Then said Saul to his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. " 1 Chronicles 10:4

It says Saul took his own life, and it even gives the reason why he made that decision. But who actually killed Saul?

"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
And enquired not of the LORD: therefore HE slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse." 1 Chronicles 10:13

My friend, God kills everyone. And He will raise everyone on the determined Day. He will teach all men righteousness, and everyone will know that He is the One True God, and that His Son Yeshua is Lord. This IS Eternal Life.



I assure you my brother, I have no problem with God's nature, nor His character. These two things are why I am so fond of Him.



Yes, Yeshua came in the flesh. He was a human man. He died, and was risen three days later. He was sown in corruptible flesh, and raised in incorruptible spirit. Yeshua indeed has a "spiritual body" of flesh and blood, but it is not a "natural" body. Fire burns natural bodies. Yeshua lives to this day, and as you said, He has eyes of Fire. Does this not burn Him?

Consider the devil. He is also thrown into the Lake of Fire, with death and hell. Do death and hell have nerves? Does the devil? The devil definitely doesn't have human flesh, so how does this fire burn these things? How do you hurt death?



The Scriptures do not speak of a "Resurrection of Damnation". What does "damn" mean, especially to a 16th century Englishman?

The Greek translated damnation is κρίσις (krisis), and according to Strong's Concordance, κρίσις means:

"judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation."

It is the Resurrection unto Judgment, when the Father will Judge the world in Righteousness:

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." Isaiah 26:9

The Scriptures do not say anything about men being raised in a different body than another. We are all sown in corruption, and we will all be raised incorruptible. Who makes us differ from another?

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" 1 Corinthians 4:55

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by HIS grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3:22



First I want to show you what the KJV says in its header before this story:

"The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus"

This is a parable. It did not really happen and it will never happen. If we examine this passage, we will see that it is impossible for this story to be taken as Gehenna:

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:"

We see the Rich man is wearing purple (royalty) and fine linen. Who else wore fine linen?

"....and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen." Exodus 28:4

The Rich man was wearing the same clothes as the people Yeshua was talking too:

"And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him." Luke 16:14

The Rich man is not a real person.

"And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores."

Interesting fact. Yeshua spoke Aramaic. Here is what Strong's Concordance says about Lazarus:

"Lazarus, Eliezer, (a) the beggar, (b) the brother of Martha and Mary, of Bethany."

(Also, Thayer's Concordance says of Lazarus: an imaginary person, extremely poor and wretched)

Poor Eliezer is not given the credit that he deserves, but he was a humble man that served his Lord Abraham well. This is what the Scriptures say of Eliezer:

"After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir." Genesis 15:1

Eliezer was Abraham's most faithful servant, and Abraham was prepared to make him heir of all his possessions. But God says that Eliezer will not be heir, it will be of Abraham's own seed. Abraham was the first Hebrew, so this would make Eliezer a Gentile.

After Abraham had Isaac, Eliezer knew for sure that he would receive nothing. It must have been hard to think that you would receive all these great possessions, and then see it go to somebody else. But Eliezer was a faithful servant. Rather than hinder Isaac's birthright, he goes out to find a wife for the very man that took everything from him!

"And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:
And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:
But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac." Genesis 24:1

Lazarus was not a real person.

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;"

Where is Abraham's bosom? Is this our destiny? To be in the bosom of a man? This verse is not literal:

"Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." Romans 11:19

And in hell (δης: Hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The Rich man is in Hades, the unseen, the destination of all mankind. In Hebrew, this is called שְׁאוֹל (Sheol), and every man will go there. This verse says nothing about "hell".

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

I highly, highly doubt if someone is in that terrible disgusting place called "hell", they would really be concerned about a "drop of water". Besides, there is plenty of water around already, as we will soon see. But first:

"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:14

This is not literal water.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Do you see how God had given the Jews everything. They are His chosen people. He gave then the Law and the Prophets and every Spiritual blessing. Now, there is something different that is about to take place.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

A gulf is: a deep inlet of the sea almost surrounded by land, with a narrow mouth. There is water all around this place. Why did the Rich man need Lazarus to give him a drop of water, if he could have just walked to the gulf?

"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." Romans 11:7

The gulf is not a literal gulf.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

"And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard it. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:
The sons of Leah; 1)Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and 2)Simeon, and 3)Levi, and Judah, and 4)Issachar, and 5)Zebulun" Genesis 35:22

The Pharisees knew exactly who the Rich man was. There are not five literal brothers.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Who has Moses and the Prophets? The Jews.

Who doesn't have Moses and the Prophets? Lazarus the Gentile.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Now do you see my friend?

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:19

Who rose from the Dead? Yeshua our Lord and the Savior off all mankind!

(Note: I take no credit for the interpretation of this parable. This was revealed to me by much better studied men)



Again, there is no Resurrection of Damnation.



No they are not my friend. Paul says:

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble" 1 Corinthians 3:12

He makes no distinction of persons, and in the end he says:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:15

This is one man with both combustible material and non combustible material. The fire rids him of the combustible, and refines the non combustible.

However, if you wish to believe that this is about believers and unbelievers, then why does it say "but he himself shall be saved"?



What is more logical? That the men who were there had it right, or that 300 to now 2000 years later, we have a better understanding of half of the things the Ancients experienced?



Well, I assure you my friend, I believe Yeshua came in the flesh.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." John 5:25



Thank you so much for bringing this up. I was hoping I would get to discuss this with you. You mentioned the manifestation of the sons of God. I'll let Paul explain this because he is a much better writer than I. But first, remember the Scriptures cannot be broken:

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; ALL is VANITY." Ecclesiastes 1:2

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Romans 8:18

Why does the creation "wait" for our manifestation? So we can throw them into a Lake of Fire where they will be tormented forever and ever?

What creature shall "also" be delivered from the bondage of corruption?

Why does the "whole creation" groan and travail "until now"?

And why at the end, does Paul say "not only, but we also"?

All is Vanity. Religion is always trying to put meaning to our lives, but the simple fact is, All is Vanity. Thus says the Scriptures.



I've already addressed 1 Corinthians 3 above. Also, why are you talking about "quality of works"? You say that the quality of our works matter, but then staunchly oppose anyone preaching works. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I would sincerely like you to explain this to me.


First, I have to disagree that Yeshua's eyes are what put us through this fiery trial.1 Corinthians 3 speaks of a Day. The same Day that all the prophets spike about.

"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Acts 17:31

Other than that, I absolutely agree that we go through the Fire now:

"And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
For EVERY ONE shall be salted with FIRE" Mark 9:45



Do you really believe that God is able do ALL THINGS?

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I WILL do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I WILL also do it." Isaiah 46:9

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who WILL have ALL men to be SAVED, and to come unto the KNOWLEDGE of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3

"And this IS life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Thank you so much my friend. You have truly been a blessing to me. God bless you my brother.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hello my friend. Thank you for your reply.

I have one problem in particular with what was said above. You say that the Lake of Fire was "originally intended" for the Devil and his angels. Does this mean that God created the Lake of Fire, but when mankind thwarted His will in the Garden, He had to resort to a plan B that involves torturing at least 90% of the billion and billions of people that have all lived on Earth?

On what day did God make this place called hell? When did He create the Lake of Fire. Genesis 1 says that God created ALL things in Six Days, and on the Seventh Day, He rested from ALL of His work. If there is a literal Hell, then in order to hold all the people that presently live (as well as the billions of people that have died), it would have to be massively bigger than Earth. Why does it not even get a sentence in Genesis 1?

Also, if our Father "needs" to torture and burn any one of His creations for trillions and trillions and trillions...of eternal, never ending, never forgiving years, then no, God cannot be Love. He created every person that has ever lived without ever consulting them first. He put the Muslim in Iraq. He put the pagan in Rome. He made each person with their own Unique physical features, minds, families, communities, countries, and experiences.

Before I was born, there was no angel that came and asked "God would like to give you a choice. Make it of your own free will. Would you like to be annihilated right now, or would you like the opportunity to live forever? However, there's a catch. You will not know anything when you are born, God is going to put you wherever He has determined you should go, and there's about a 95% chance that you will either be an unbeliever, or you will be a heretic. If this happens, you will be burned and tormented. And this won't just last for ever. It will last forever and ever!"

If I told that angel yes, then surely the Love of God would have led Him to destroy me right then for making such a stupid decision.



My friend, are you still not carnal? Do you not know that God works all things after the council of His own will? Do you not know that God makes peace, and creates evil?

Please my friend, listen carefully to the following Scripture, and then know that God does indeed do all things:

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever." Deuteronomy 32:39

"The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up." 1 Samuel 2:6

"And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD." Job 1:21

"For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole." Job 5:18

Remember when Saul committed suicide?

"Then said Saul to his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. " 1 Chronicles 10:4

It says Saul took his own life, and it even gives the reason why he made that decision. But who actually killed Saul?

"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
And enquired not of the LORD: therefore HE slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse." 1 Chronicles 10:13

My friend, God kills everyone. And He will raise everyone on the determined Day. He will teach all men righteousness, and everyone will know that He is the One True God, and that His Son Yeshua is Lord. This IS Eternal Life.



I assure you my brother, I have no problem with God's nature, nor His character. These two things are why I am so fond of Him.



Yes, Yeshua came in the flesh. He was a human man. He died, and was risen three days later. He was sown in corruptible flesh, and raised in incorruptible spirit. Yeshua indeed has a "spiritual body" of flesh and blood, but it is not a "natural" body. Fire burns natural bodies. Yeshua lives to this day, and as you said, He has eyes of Fire. Does this not burn Him?

Consider the devil. He is also thrown into the Lake of Fire, with death and hell. Do death and hell have nerves? Does the devil? The devil definitely doesn't have human flesh, so how does this fire burn these things? How do you hurt death?



The Scriptures do not speak of a "Resurrection of Damnation". What does "damn" mean, especially to a 16th century Englishman?

The Greek translated damnation is κρίσις (krisis), and according to Strong's Concordance, κρίσις means:

"judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation."

It is the Resurrection unto Judgment, when the Father will Judge the world in Righteousness:

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." Isaiah 26:9

The Scriptures do not say anything about men being raised in a different body than another. We are all sown in corruption, and we will all be raised incorruptible. Who makes us differ from another?

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" 1 Corinthians 4:55

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by HIS grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3:22



First I want to show you what the KJV says in its header before this story:

"The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus"

This is a parable. It did not really happen and it will never happen. If we examine this passage, we will see that it is impossible for this story to be taken as Gehenna:

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:"

We see the Rich man is wearing purple (royalty) and fine linen. Who else wore fine linen?

"....and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen." Exodus 28:4

The Rich man was wearing the same clothes as the people Yeshua was talking too:

"And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him." Luke 16:14

The Rich man is not a real person.

"And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores."

Interesting fact. Yeshua spoke Aramaic. Here is what Strong's Concordance says about Lazarus:

"Lazarus, Eliezer, (a) the beggar, (b) the brother of Martha and Mary, of Bethany."

(Also, Thayer's Concordance says of Lazarus: an imaginary person, extremely poor and wretched)

Poor Eliezer is not given the credit that he deserves, but he was a humble man that served his Lord Abraham well. This is what the Scriptures say of Eliezer:

"After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir." Genesis 15:1

Eliezer was Abraham's most faithful servant, and Abraham was prepared to make him heir of all his possessions. But God says that Eliezer will not be heir, it will be of Abraham's own seed. Abraham was the first Hebrew, so this would make Eliezer a Gentile.

After Abraham had Isaac, Eliezer knew for sure that he would receive nothing. It must have been hard to think that you would receive all these great possessions, and then see it go to somebody else. But Eliezer was a faithful servant. Rather than hinder Isaac's birthright, he goes out to find a wife for the very man that took everything from him!

"And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:
And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:
But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac." Genesis 24:1

Lazarus was not a real person.

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;"

Where is Abraham's bosom? Is this our destiny? To be in the bosom of a man? This verse is not literal:

"Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." Romans 11:19

And in hell (δης: Hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The Rich man is in Hades, the unseen, the destination of all mankind. In Hebrew, this is called שְׁאוֹל (Sheol), and every man will go there. This verse says nothing about "hell".

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

I highly, highly doubt if someone is in that terrible disgusting place called "hell", they would really be concerned about a "drop of water". Besides, there is plenty of water around already, as we will soon see. But first:

"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:14

This is not literal water.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Do you see how God had given the Jews everything. They are His chosen people. He gave then the Law and the Prophets and every Spiritual blessing. Now, there is something different that is about to take place.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

A gulf is: a deep inlet of the sea almost surrounded by land, with a narrow mouth. There is water all around this place. Why did the Rich man need Lazarus to give him a drop of water, if he could have just walked to the gulf?

"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." Romans 11:7

The gulf is not a literal gulf.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

"And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard it. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:
The sons of Leah; 1)Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and 2)Simeon, and 3)Levi, and Judah, and 4)Issachar, and 5)Zebulun" Genesis 35:22

The Pharisees knew exactly who the Rich man was. There are not five literal brothers.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Who has Moses and the Prophets? The Jews.

Who doesn't have Moses and the Prophets? Lazarus the Gentile.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Now do you see my friend?

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:19

Who rose from the Dead? Yeshua our Lord and the Savior off all mankind!

(Note: I take no credit for the interpretation of this parable. This was revealed to me by much better studied men)



Again, there is no Resurrection of Damnation.



No they are not my friend. Paul says:

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble" 1 Corinthians 3:12

He makes no distinction of persons, and in the end he says:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:15

This is one man with both combustible material and non combustible material. The fire rids him of the combustible, and refines the non combustible.

However, if you wish to believe that this is about believers and unbelievers, then why does it say "but he himself shall be saved"?



What is more logical? That the men who were there had it right, or that 300 to now 2000 years later, we have a better understanding of half of the things the Ancients experienced?



Well, I assure you my friend, I believe Yeshua came in the flesh.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." John 5:25



Thank you so much for bringing this up. I was hoping I would get to discuss this with you. You mentioned the manifestation of the sons of God. I'll let Paul explain this because he is a much better writer than I. But first, remember the Scriptures cannot be broken:

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; ALL is VANITY." Ecclesiastes 1:2

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Romans 8:18

Why does the creation "wait" for our manifestation? So we can throw them into a Lake of Fire where they will be tormented forever and ever?

What creature shall "also" be delivered from the bondage of corruption?

Why does the "whole creation" groan and travail "until now"?

And why at the end, does Paul say "not only, but we also"?

All is Vanity. Religion is always trying to put meaning to our lives, but the simple fact is, All is Vanity. Thus says the Scriptures.



I've already addressed 1 Corinthians 3 above. Also, why are you talking about "quality of works"? You say that the quality of our works matter, but then staunchly oppose anyone preaching works. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I would sincerely like you to explain this to me.


First, I have to disagree that Yeshua's eyes are what put us through this fiery trial.1 Corinthians 3 speaks of a Day. The same Day that all the prophets spike about.

"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Acts 17:31

Other than that, I absolutely agree that we go through the Fire now:

"And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
For EVERY ONE shall be salted with FIRE" Mark 9:45



Do you really believe that God is able do ALL THINGS?

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I WILL do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I WILL also do it." Isaiah 46:9

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who WILL have ALL men to be SAVED, and to come unto the KNOWLEDGE of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3

"And this IS life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Thank you so much my friend. You have truly been a blessing to me. God bless you my brother.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hello my friend. Thank you for your reply.

I have one problem in particular with what was said above. You say that the Lake of Fire was "originally intended" for the Devil and his angels. Does this mean that God created the Lake of Fire, but when mankind thwarted His will in the Garden, He had to resort to a plan B that involves torturing at least 90% of the billion and billions of people that have all lived on Earth?

On what day did God make this place called hell? When did He create the Lake of Fire. Genesis 1 says that God created ALL things in Six Days, and on the Seventh Day, He rested from ALL of His work. If there is a literal Hell, then in order to hold all the people that presently live (as well as the billions of people that have died), it would have to be massively bigger than Earth. Why does it not even get a sentence in Genesis 1?

Also, if our Father "needs" to torture and burn any one of His creations for trillions and trillions and trillions...of eternal, never ending, never forgiving years, then no, God cannot be Love. He created every person that has ever lived without ever consulting them first. He put the Muslim in Iraq. He put the pagan in Rome. He made each person with their own Unique physical features, minds, families, communities, countries, and experiences.

Before I was born, there was no angel that came and asked "God would like to give you a choice. Make it of your own free will. Would you like to be annihilated right now, or would you like the opportunity to live forever? However, there's a catch. You will not know anything when you are born, God is going to put you wherever He has determined you should go, and there's about a 95% chance that you will either be an unbeliever, or you will be a heretic. If this happens, you will be burned and tormented. And this won't just last for ever. It will last forever and ever!"

If I told that angel yes, then surely the Love of God would have led Him to destroy me right then for making such a stupid decision.



My friend, are you still not carnal? Do you not know that God works all things after the council of His own will? Do you not know that God makes peace, and creates evil?

Please my friend, listen carefully to the following Scripture, and then know that God does indeed do all things:

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever." Deuteronomy 32:39

"The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up." 1 Samuel 2:6

"And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD." Job 1:21

"For he maketh sore, and bindeth up: he woundeth, and his hands make whole." Job 5:18

Remember when Saul committed suicide?

"Then said Saul to his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. So Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. " 1 Chronicles 10:4

It says Saul took his own life, and it even gives the reason why he made that decision. But who actually killed Saul?

"So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
And enquired not of the LORD: therefore HE slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse." 1 Chronicles 10:13

My friend, God kills everyone. And He will raise everyone on the determined Day. He will teach all men righteousness, and everyone will know that He is the One True God, and that His Son Yeshua is Lord. This IS Eternal Life.



I assure you my brother, I have no problem with God's nature, nor His character. These two things are why I am so fond of Him.



Yes, Yeshua came in the flesh. He was a human man. He died, and was risen three days later. He was sown in corruptible flesh, and raised in incorruptible spirit. Yeshua indeed has a "spiritual body" of flesh and blood, but it is not a "natural" body. Fire burns natural bodies. Yeshua lives to this day, and as you said, He has eyes of Fire. Does this not burn Him?

Consider the devil. He is also thrown into the Lake of Fire, with death and hell. Do death and hell have nerves? Does the devil? The devil definitely doesn't have human flesh, so how does this fire burn these things? How do you hurt death?



The Scriptures do not speak of a "Resurrection of Damnation". What does "damn" mean, especially to a 16th century Englishman?

The Greek translated damnation is κρίσις (krisis), and according to Strong's Concordance, κρίσις means:

"judging, judgment, decision, sentence; generally: divine judgment; accusation."

It is the Resurrection unto Judgment, when the Father will Judge the world in Righteousness:

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." Isaiah 26:9

The Scriptures do not say anything about men being raised in a different body than another. We are all sown in corruption, and we will all be raised incorruptible. Who makes us differ from another?

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" 1 Corinthians 4:55

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto ALL and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by HIS grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3:22



First I want to show you what the KJV says in its header before this story:

"The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus"

This is a parable. It did not really happen and it will never happen. If we examine this passage, we will see that it is impossible for this story to be taken as Gehenna:

"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:"

We see the Rich man is wearing purple (royalty) and fine linen. Who else wore fine linen?

"....and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.
And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen." Exodus 28:4

The Rich man was wearing the same clothes as the people Yeshua was talking too:

"And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him." Luke 16:14

The Rich man is not a real person.

"And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores."

Interesting fact. Yeshua spoke Aramaic. Here is what Strong's Concordance says about Lazarus:

"Lazarus, Eliezer, (a) the beggar, (b) the brother of Martha and Mary, of Bethany."

(Also, Thayer's Concordance says of Lazarus: an imaginary person, extremely poor and wretched)

Poor Eliezer is not given the credit that he deserves, but he was a humble man that served his Lord Abraham well. This is what the Scriptures say of Eliezer:

"After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir." Genesis 15:1

Eliezer was Abraham's most faithful servant, and Abraham was prepared to make him heir of all his possessions. But God says that Eliezer will not be heir, it will be of Abraham's own seed. Abraham was the first Hebrew, so this would make Eliezer a Gentile.

After Abraham had Isaac, Eliezer knew for sure that he would receive nothing. It must have been hard to think that you would receive all these great possessions, and then see it go to somebody else. But Eliezer was a faithful servant. Rather than hinder Isaac's birthright, he goes out to find a wife for the very man that took everything from him!

"And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:
And I will make thee swear by the LORD, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:
But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac." Genesis 24:1

Lazarus was not a real person.

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;"

Where is Abraham's bosom? Is this our destiny? To be in the bosom of a man? This verse is not literal:

"Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee." Romans 11:19

And in hell (δης: Hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

The Rich man is in Hades, the unseen, the destination of all mankind. In Hebrew, this is called שְׁאוֹל (Sheol), and every man will go there. This verse says nothing about "hell".

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

I highly, highly doubt if someone is in that terrible disgusting place called "hell", they would really be concerned about a "drop of water". Besides, there is plenty of water around already, as we will soon see. But first:

"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:14

This is not literal water.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Do you see how God had given the Jews everything. They are His chosen people. He gave then the Law and the Prophets and every Spiritual blessing. Now, there is something different that is about to take place.

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

A gulf is: a deep inlet of the sea almost surrounded by land, with a narrow mouth. There is water all around this place. Why did the Rich man need Lazarus to give him a drop of water, if he could have just walked to the gulf?

"What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." Romans 11:7

The gulf is not a literal gulf.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

"And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard it. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:
The sons of Leah; 1)Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and 2)Simeon, and 3)Levi, and Judah, and 4)Issachar, and 5)Zebulun" Genesis 35:22

The Pharisees knew exactly who the Rich man was. There are not five literal brothers.

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Who has Moses and the Prophets? The Jews.

Who doesn't have Moses and the Prophets? Lazarus the Gentile.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

Now do you see my friend?

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:19

Who rose from the Dead? Yeshua our Lord and the Savior off all mankind!

(Note: I take no credit for the interpretation of this parable. This was revealed to me by much better studied men)



Again, there is no Resurrection of Damnation.



No they are not my friend. Paul says:

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble" 1 Corinthians 3:12

He makes no distinction of persons, and in the end he says:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:15

This is one man with both combustible material and non combustible material. The fire rids him of the combustible, and refines the non combustible.

However, if you wish to believe that this is about believers and unbelievers, then why does it say "but he himself shall be saved"?



What is more logical? That the men who were there had it right, or that 300 to now 2000 years later, we have a better understanding of half of the things the Ancients experienced?



Well, I assure you my friend, I believe Yeshua came in the flesh.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man." John 5:25



Thank you so much for bringing this up. I was hoping I would get to discuss this with you. You mentioned the manifestation of the sons of God. I'll let Paul explain this because he is a much better writer than I. But first, remember the Scriptures cannot be broken:

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; ALL is VANITY." Ecclesiastes 1:2

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to VANITY, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Romans 8:18

Why does the creation "wait" for our manifestation? So we can throw them into a Lake of Fire where they will be tormented forever and ever?

What creature shall "also" be delivered from the bondage of corruption?

Why does the "whole creation" groan and travail "until now"?

And why at the end, does Paul say "not only, but we also"?

All is Vanity. Religion is always trying to put meaning to our lives, but the simple fact is, All is Vanity. Thus says the Scriptures.



I've already addressed 1 Corinthians 3 above. Also, why are you talking about "quality of works"? You say that the quality of our works matter, but then staunchly oppose anyone preaching works. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I would sincerely like you to explain this to me.


First, I have to disagree that Yeshua's eyes are what put us through this fiery trial.1 Corinthians 3 speaks of a Day. The same Day that all the prophets spike about.

"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Acts 17:31

Other than that, I absolutely agree that we go through the Fire now:

"And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
For EVERY ONE shall be salted with FIRE" Mark 9:45



Do you really believe that God is able do ALL THINGS?

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I WILL do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I WILL also do it." Isaiah 46:9

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who WILL have ALL men to be SAVED, and to come unto the KNOWLEDGE of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3

"And this IS life eternal, that they might KNOW thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3

Thank you so much my friend. You have truly been a blessing to me. God bless you my brother.

I responded in post 72

I messed up with the quotes a bit and was trying to find where I missed the point

 

[2KnowHim]

Love of Truth..
Let me show you a mystery......

To be Carnally minded IS Death...
The last Enemy to be destroyed is Death...(The Carnal mind).
Death and Hell was cast into the lake of fire....(The carnal mind and hell/the torment it brings with it).
And there shall be no more Death....(No more carnal minds).
Death is swallowed up in Victory!!....(The Carnal minds of men have been Changed, to The mind of Christ) Through the fire... Hallelujah!!!

 

[2KnowHim]

And in case you didn't catch it...The Devil is the Carnal mind and the thoughts of the carnal mind are his angels/messengers.
This is why the lake of fire was prepared for the Carnal mind and it's thoughts to be burned up, because they are not of God.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Love of Truth..
Let me show you a mystery......

To be Carnally minded IS Death...
The last Enemy to be destroyed is Death...(The Carnal mind).
Death and Hell was cast into the lake of fire....(The carnal mind and hell/the torment it brings with it).
And there shall be no more Death....(No more carnal minds).
Death is swallowed up in Victory!!....(The Carnal minds of men have been Changed, to The mind of Christ) Through the fire... Hallelujah!!!

cast into the lake of fire, and there fire shall never be quenched for ever