The "Free Will" Dilemma

[guuila]

We can choose anything not to do with salvation. Amen.

We can choose whatever we want.

 

[OzSpen]

Hi griff. Let's see, if prevenient grace can be resisted coupled with "enslaved-will" then = / = no "Prevenient Grace," correct? JMy friend Oz, we sent u to school and bought you books + internet, how could u go in the wrong direction? Just your ol' buddy Jack.

Why are you being sarcastic about me and not addressing me directly?

 

[shturt678]

Why are you being sarcastic about me and not addressing me directly?

...awakens those that are snoozing, ie, including those that I have a lot of respect for. No offense intended my friend Oz. Now you can see why I would win any popularity contest on CF. I'm an ol' old man and the way you can awaken me is show me where I'm in error. I agape responses such as yours, ie, been receiving them for almost three decades. Had a similar response couple days ago, and made my day.

 

[OzSpen]

Edward65,

Free will and omniscience are incompatible. To maintain that God foreknows the future with total accuracy when people have complete freedom to reach their own independent decisions, involves one in performing mental gymnastics in order to try and explain what is logically impossible.

Both a Calvinist and an Arminian disagree with your understanding of omniscience.

Wayne Grudem, a Calvinist, wrote:

Omniscience. The attribute of God whereby he fully knows himself and all things actual and possible in one simple and eternal act (1999. Bible Doctrine. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press, p. 490).

Henry Thiessen, an Arminian, wrote:

By the omniscience of God we mean that He knows Himself and all other things, whether they be actual or merely possible, whether they be past, present, or future, and that He knows them perfectly and from all eternity. He knows things immediately, simultaneously, exhaustively and truly. He also knows the best ways to attain His desired ends (1949. Lectures in Systematic Theology. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, p. 124).

Thiessen presented the biblical evidence: God knows things actually existing;
* as inaminate creation (Ps 147:4);
* brute creation (Matt 10:29);
* human beings and all their works (Ps 33:13-15);
* people's thoughts and hearts (Ps 139:1-4);
* people's wants (Mt 6:8, 32);

God also knows all things possible:
* He knew that Keilah would betray Davis to Saul, if he remained in that vicinity (1 Sam 23:11-12);
* As Jesus knew that Tyre and Sidon would have repented had they seen the miracles that were done in Bethsaida and Chorazin (Mt 11:21);
* That Sodom and Gomorrah would have been spared if they had seen the works that were done in Capernaum (Mt 11:23-34).

God knows the future. From a human perspective this is known as foreknowledge but not so for God as 'He knows all things by one simultaneous intuition':
+ God foreknew the future in general (Isa 46:9-19; Dan 2 and 7; Acts 15:18);
+ The evil course that Israel would take (Deut 31:20-21);
+ The coming and work of Cyrus (Isa 44 - 45:7);
+ The coming of the Messiah (Micah 5:2);
+ That wicked men would crucify Jesus (Rev 13:8 KJV; Acts 2:23; 3:18; etc);

Foreknowledge 'is not causative; we must not confuse foreknowledge with the predetermining will pf God. Free actions do not take place because they are foreseen, but they are foreseen because they will take place. [Charles] Hodge says: "That free acts may be absolutely certain, is plain, because they have in a multitude of cases been predicted" (Hodge, Systematic Theology I:401) [Thiessen 1949:125-26].

Human free will and God's omniscience are perfectly consistent in biblical revelation as revealed in the Scriptures.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

...awakens those that are snoozing, ie, including those that I have a lot of respect for. No offense intended my friend Oz. Now you can see why I would win any popularity contest on CF. I'm an ol' old man and the way you can awaken me is show me where I'm in error. I agape responses such as yours, ie, been receiving them for almost three decades. Had a similar response couple days ago, and made my day.

Sarcasm again. Surely your older age should tell you that sarcasm doesn't work and it does not cause you to win friends and influence people.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Can prevenient grace be resisted?

Your question demonstrates that you not only don't know the meaning of prevenient grace but also that you continue to be sarcastic towards those with a different understanding of grace to yours.

Prevenient grace to all is still amazing grace.

Oz

 

[shturt678]

Sarcasm again. Surely your older age should tell you that sarcasm doesn't work and it does not cause you to win friends and influence people.

Oz

 

[shturt678]

Your question demonstrates that you not only don't know the meaning of prevenient grace but also that you continue to be sarcastic towards those with a different understanding of grace to yours.

Prevenient grace to all is still amazing grace.

Oz

Free-will X Prevenient Grace X non-resistable grace = "not good." "Prevenient grace" has been and is a "replaced grace," astounding at that.

 

[guuila]

Your question demonstrates that you not only don't know the meaning of prevenient grace

No kidding? Why do you think I'm asking you, the one who believes in prevenient grace?

but also that you continue to be sarcastic towards those with a different understanding of grace to yours.

Why can't you answer questions without ad hominems? Aren't you the logical fallacy expert? Answer the question. Or maybe you don't even know the answer?

 

[guuila]

Sarcasm again. Surely your older age should tell you that sarcasm doesn't work and it does not cause you to win friends and influence people.

Oz

Are you being cynical?

 

[guuila]

So from what I can tell, neither prevenient grace nor irresistible grace can be resisted. Here is the difference between the two:

Prevenient grace - God gives man the tools necessary to pull himself up by his bootstraps and bring himself to God. May or may not result in salvation. Depends on the man and if he's good enough to obey and quit being stubborn.

Irresistible grace - God brings man to himself giving everything required for salvation, including the desire to be saved, faith and repentance that will persevere to the end, resulting in salvation every single time.

And the synergists like Oz want us to believe the one that results in salvation is a horrible thing. Huh.

 

[guuila]

Why are you being sarcastic about me and not addressing me directly?

U mad bro?

 

[shturt678]

So from what I can tell, neither prevenient grace nor irresistible grace can be resisted. Here is the difference between the two:

Prevenient grace - God gives man the tools necessary to pull himself up by his bootstraps and bring himself to God. May or may not result in salvation. Depends on the man and if he's good enough to obey and quit being stubborn.

Irresistible grace - God brings man to himself giving everything required for salvation, including the desire to be saved, faith and repentance that will persevere to the end, resulting in salvation every single time.

God's grace is irresistible; however does have it's limits. I'm still under IITim.3:16 and was in error opening my big mouth too soon.

And the synergists like Oz want us to believe the one that results in salvation is a horrible thing. Huh.

 

[nobdysfool]

If a choice isn't a choice, then there is no such thing as a choice. Nobody who argues in favor of free will can reasonably suggest that the will is totally free, since if that were the case, we could freely will to shoot off into space and go sightseeing in Andromeda and be back for supper. No, naturally, the freedom of the will is limited by the bounds determined by our sovereign Creator, but if the will is not totally free, does that necessarily mean we have no freedom to make choices at all? Of course not.

Hmmm....seems to me there wasn't a whole lot of comprehension involved in your reading of my post. How's about actually addressing what I DID say? Hmmmm?

 

[guuila]

God's grace is irresistible;

It is. All men by nature resist it. And when God is ready to bring one of his children to faith, he overcomes that resistance. That's the doctrine of irresistible grace. I'm so thankful for that! I'm so glad God came and rescued me and brought me to himself rather than waiting for me to do the right thing and to go to him. Praise God!

 

[shturt678]

It is. All men by nature resist it. And when God is ready to bring one of his children to faith, he overcomes that resistance. That's the doctrine of irresistible grace. I'm so thankful for that! I'm so glad God came and rescued me and brought me to himself rather than waiting for me to do the right thing and to go to him. Praise God!

Grace cannot be rejected as this promotes "free-will" and all have an "enslaved-will." Ie, all happens by God's necessity. Matt.13:14, 15, for starters, "grace" does have "its limits". This is where I put "resistable" like the idiot that I am, ie, memory lapse. I should have known better?

 

[Hammster]

Your question demonstrates that you not only don't know the meaning of prevenient grace but also that you continue to be sarcastic towards those with a different understanding of grace to yours.

Prevenient grace to all is still amazing grace.

Oz

Why don't you consider prevenient grace a violation of free will?

 

[guuila]

Why don't you consider prevenient grace a violation of free will?

One can't help but wonder - if we have free will, why do we need prevenient grace to begin with?

 

[OzSpen]

Why don't you consider prevenient grace a violation of free will?

Because it is not. It is common grace. It is no more a violation of free will than a person receiving a soul/spirit is a violation of free will.

God takes the initiative in all salvation. We know that prevenient grace is not a violation of free will because God has stated it clearly what He has done:

For the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation for all people (Titus 2:11 ESV).

This means that the human will is freed in relation to salvation. It is not a violation of free will. We know that the will has been freed in relation to salvation because it is implied in the exhortations:

• to turn to God. (Prov 1:23; Isa 31:6; Ezek 14:6; 18:32; Joel 2:13-14; Matt 18:3; and Acts 3:19;
• to repent (1 Kings 8:47; Matt 3:2; Mark 1:15; Luke 13:3, 5; Acts 2:38; 17:30), and
• to believe (2 Chron 20:20; Isa 43:10; John 6:29; 14:1; Acts 16:31; Phil 1:29; 1 John 3:23.

Prevenient grace is no more a violation of a person's will than their receiving a beating heart before birth and breath after birth.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

One can't help but wonder - if we have free will, why do we need prevenient grace to begin with?

You demonstrate that you don't understand the nature of prevenient grace. This is expected as you do not believe in it according to Titus 2:11. Is that verse cut out of your Bible?

Oz