The effects of literalists on origins discussions

[Lilandra]

I originally started posting here to discuss origins. Along the way I have gotten into interesting discussions with the entire range of the belief spectrum, no belief to Young Earth Creationists. Some of the discussions were heated some were informative.

In some of the discussions, I (and others also)hope to represent Christ and Christianity as rational. I don’t want to preach to anyone, just not make Christianity look foolish. I think that insisting that the Earth was created in 6 24 hour days makes Christians look foolish to nonbelievers.
Like these comments…

Mk 10: 6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

Here at least, we see that it was not evolution, but creation, in a clear reference to Adam and Eve, of course. So what is left, how long ago that was? Is that really a burning question? Bible scholars have nailed down the time to within some centuries, according to geneologies, lifespans, who begat who when, etc.

More so when the poster conflates their opinion with what God says…

Man says: Man evolved from a cell into A and then B, then C, then...
God says: He formed man in His own image and likeness from the dust of the ground.

I agree with God.

And this…

Christian: "Hey, did you know that the Bible is the true, accurate word of God, and reading it is just like talking to God himself?"

Person 1: "That is silly, but you have fun believing that... Um, I have to go stand over there now."

Person 2: "Wow, that is amazing! What great news, we have to go out and tell other people that!"

Blockhead: "Well how do you know? Did God tell you?"

Christian: "Umm... I'm pretty sure that's what I just said, was I not clear?"
[walks away]

It would seem from the above post that this person is evangelizing from the words “great news”. Still the same ultimatum accept literal instant creation because in effect "I said that is what God said."
Most irritating to me is when a poster tries to link salvation with accepting a literal Genesis…

In Exodus it says "In 6 days the Lord God created the heavens and the earth." In Matther it says "Jesus rose from the tomb on the third day" What can we get from this? Well, the athiest will say "The Bible teaches that God created the earth in 6 days, and that Jesus rose from the dead in 3 days... but it's all bunk." The Conservative Christian will say The Bible teaches that God created the earth in 6 days, and that Jesus rose from the dead in 3 days... and its all true. The Liberal Christian will say "The Bible was a Spiritual guide for both primitive man and enlightened man and it has valid spiritual input for everybody. The earth was created over billions of years and Jesus may or may not have ever died."

Here's another one...

I have more respect for the athiest. at least they picked a compass direction and they are sticking with it. the Liberal Christian just sort of goes off all willy nilly in whatever direction seems right. That is how I was raised and I had no direction. I could do, or believe whatever I wanted. The result was I didn't know what to think.

The above post is the crux of the matter. People need to think for themselves. Not abdicate their critical thinking to authority’s opinions. The ultimatum to conform to YEC is dangerous. Not only do you make Christianity look foolish to nonbelievers, you tempt a thinking Christian to deconvert.

If you are here to evangelize you alienate nonbelievers with YEC and place a stumbling block before non-YEC Christians. What I am saying is not new. St Augustine discussed it hundreds of years ago. Thanks to Jane the Bane for her post about it…

In his work The Literal Meaning of Genesis (De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim), Saint Augustine (354-430), embarrassed by Christians who would not accept this implication of the Doctrine of Creation, wrote against them. This translation is by J. H. Taylor in Ancient Christian Writers, Newman Press, 1982, volume 41.

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, [..] and this knowledge he holds as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?"

The YEC response was…

Blah, blah, blah----I've proven that Augustine's writings are not inerrant as is GOD's Word. I've also proven that you show more concern for the writings of some Church father, than you do for the writings of the founder of the CHURCH and HIS chosen disciples.

What this response appears to be is the individual’s desire to be personally correct despite any and all evidence.
What disturbs me the most is sometimes the lack of concern for anyone’s salvation, non-theist or any Christian disagrees with them. More than often any Christian, who accepts evolution, or the Big Bang, or mainstream Geology, has their Christianity questioned.

Forgive the length of this post, in my heart, I wonder that it will do any good. No matter what anyone says the extreme ends of the belief spectrum will continue to take shots at each other.

Edit to add: I know this post sounds accusatory but the discussions here get a little frustrating.

 

[FreezBee]

If you are here to evangelize you alienate nonbelievers with YEC and place a stumbling block before non-YEC Christians. What I am saying is not new. St Augustine discussed it hundreds of years ago.

Yes, you touch upon an import issue here. The evangelizing YECs are not discussing evolution versus creation, but actually, what it requires for you to be counted as a true Christian, a completely different discussion, that belongs in another forum.

The question though is, if they can see it that way, don't you think?


- FreezBee

 

[DailyBlessings]

I've said it once, and I will say it again- "literalism" is among the greatest threats to the future of Christianity. Along with the points you have already made, there is the false dichotomy they willingly set up- that science and faith are incompatible. Unfortunately many non-Christians take them at their word and go with the option they already know to be true. And intelligent Christians, as you noted, are driven away. I know that YECism almost resulted in the loss of my fledgling faith, when I was younger and going to a Christian school. I was told every day that I was not a Christian by the teachers at that school- why wouldn't I believe them?

 

[Lilandra]

if they recognize the effect they are having, do they care?

Or are they content to believe they are among the select few going to heaven?

The question though is, if they can see it that way, don't you think?


- FreezBee

 

[vossler]

In some of the discussions, I (and others also)hope to represent Christ and Christianity as rational. I don’t want to preach to anyone, just not make Christianity look foolish. I think that insisting that the Earth was created in 6 24 hour days makes Christians look foolish to nonbelievers.

1 Corinthians 1:18 states: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Christianity already looks foolish, that's why they don't believe. Christianity and it's doctrines are based upon the Word of God.

The text then goes on to say in verse 20: "Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" That's how creationists see evolution, it is the foolish wisdom of the world.

If this in turn then makes us look foolish to the world, we shouldn't be surprised, should we?

 

[DailyBlessings]

1 Corinthians 1:18 states: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Christianity already looks foolish, that's why they don't believe. Christianity and it's doctrines are based upon the Word of God.

The text then goes on to say in verse 20: "Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" That's how creationists see evolution, it is the foolish wisdom of the world.

If this in turn then makes us look foolish to the world, we shouldn't be surprised, should we?

The standpoint of theistic evolutionists is also based on the Word of God. Yet YEC proponents would try to cast them from the community of Christ over a matter of semantics.

 

[chaoschristian]

Does anyone have good resources on where this 'school' of literal/indicative interpretation comes from? It strikes me as a fairly recent phenomenon and I would like to study its emergence.

Two things that make me weary in debate here on CF: the stubborn adhearance to a completely indicative interpretation of the entire Bible that ignores the history of scripture, the problems of translation, and the original contexts in which scripture was written; and the irrating habit of grabbing individual pieces of text out of context and using that to justify some point, often without the necessary accompanying analysis that would help someone else understand where the poster is coming from (hence my new signature, inspired by a particularly insipid piece of gold mining to prove geocentrism)

I've grown thick skin regarding the whole 'you don't believe what I believe so you're not a real Christian' deal, but I'll still call someone on it if they try it.

The truly disappointing result of all of this is the way it shuts down any form of dialogue. And I mean dialogue. There is no opportunity for mutual learning or understanding. Discussion and debate can take place, but it often goes in circles or degenerates into ad hominem (or in some cases shear lunacy in which case one wonders if parody applies.)

Somehow the idea that faith demands an absolute black-and-white committment to particular, specific beliefs which have little bearing on salvation has emerged onto the scene. Maybe its been around longer than I realize, or maybe modern technology has made it propogate more readily.

Regardless, there does exist a particular Christian POV and mindset that is becoming increasingly difficult to engage with. The consequences of that concern me.

 

[Lilandra]

thats lists some of the players and movements.
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/CMBergman.html

Does anyone have good resources on where
this 'school' of literal/indicative interpretation comes from? It strikes me as a fairly recent phenomenon and I would like to study its emergence.

Two things that make me weary in debate here on CF: the stubborn adhearance to a completely indicative interpretation of the entire Bible that ignores the history of scripture, the problems of translation, and the original contexts in which scripture was written; and the irrating habit of grabbing individual pieces of text out of context and using that to justify some point, often without the necessary accompanying analysis that would help someone else understand where the poster is coming from (hence my new signature, inspired by a particularly insipid piece of gold mining to prove geocentrism)

I've grown thick skin regarding the whole 'you don't believe what I believe so you're not a real Christian' deal, but I'll still call someone on it if they try it.

The truly disappointing result of all of this is the way it shuts down any form of dialogue. And I mean dialogue. There is no opportunity for mutual learning or understanding. Discussion and debate can take place, but it often goes in circles or degenerates into ad hominem (or in some cases shear lunacy in which case one wonders if parody applies.)

Somehow the idea that faith demands an absolute black-and-white committment to particular, specific beliefs which have little bearing on salvation has emerged onto the scene. Maybe its been around longer than I realize, or maybe modern technology has made it propogate more readily.

Regardless, there does exist a particular Christian POV and mindset that is becoming increasingly difficult to engage with. The consequences of that concern me.

 

[Lilandra]

that verse is about the message of the cross not about a literal Genesis.

1 Corinthians 1:18 states: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Christianity already looks foolish, that's why they don't believe. Christianity and it's doctrines are based upon the Word of God.

The text then goes on to say in verse 20: "Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" That's how creationists see evolution, it is the foolish wisdom of the world.

If this in turn then makes us look foolish to the world, we shouldn't be surprised, should we?

 

[WAB]

1 Corinthians 1:18 states: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Christianity already looks foolish, that's why they don't believe. Christianity and it's doctrines are based upon the Word of God.

The text then goes on to say in verse 20: "Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" That's how creationists see evolution, it is the foolish wisdom of the world.

If this in turn then makes us look foolish to the world, we shouldn't be surprised, should we?

No, we should not be surprised, nor intimidated. As 1 Peter 3:15 says... "...always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;"

Obviously, the fear mentioned there is fear (or reverence) of God, not of the questioner. Sadly, often the meekness (mildness, humility) that is to be exhibited toward the questioner is absent.

 

[Lilandra]

being that none of us are God, we just have to work with what we have.

I have seen this verse quoted numerous times to essentially say I can't back up what I say with evidence. Again you are confusing what God does with what you are able to do.

Enshrining foolishness as some sort of virtue. If you are really that opposed to the wisdom of the world, stop using a computer. Pray and see if you can post that way.

You can't because that is not what that verse means.

Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"

The text then goes on to say in verse 20: "Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" That's how creationists see evolution, it is the foolish wisdom of the world.

If this in turn then makes us look foolish to the world, we shouldn't be surprised, should we?

 

[chaoschristian]

1 Corinthians 1:18 states: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."

Christianity already looks foolish, that's why they don't believe. Christianity and it's doctrines are based upon the Word of God.

The text then goes on to say in verse 20: "Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" That's how creationists see evolution, it is the foolish wisdom of the world.

If this in turn then makes us look foolish to the world, we shouldn't be surprised, should we?

Yes, the message of the cross looks quite foolish, bizarre even, but what does have to do with Christians themselves making themselves look foolish in the name of the cross? I don't think it means what you want it to mean. It does not give carte blanche to Christians to use any means available, or to accept without thought the argument present by so-called authority, or to reject that which is reasonable all in the name of some Quixotic crusade to save the cross. God does not need our help. But the way I've seen Christians contort themselves and scripture in the name of God would lead me to believe that they believe God to be an invalid.

As for Verse 20, while completely applicable in its day to show that the powers-that-be at the time, such as the Pharisees, were going to have their intellectual worlds turned upsidedown by the message of the cross, it was not intended nor can be used as a general diatribe against all scholars and scholarly work.

Paul is making a statement about the nature of salvation, and you can even see that in some regard it is self-referantial since Paul was a recognized scholar of his time. Paul is not making the statement, "God hates science and knowledge."

And if that is how Creationists see evolution, as the foolishiness of the world, then they should be quick to remind themselves that the knowledge of evolution comes directly from the world, God's own Creation.

 

[vossler]

that verse is about the message of the cross not about a literal Genesis.

I wasn't trying to make verse 18 about Genesis. My point there was to show that the lost are so because they see the cross as foolishness. For them it is their wisdom that is most important. If one spends anytime in C & E we can see this manifested in full. To the non-believer we (believers) are foolish because their wisdom is far superior. What is their wisdom based upon? Why science of course.


As for verse 20 it would be good to continue reading, so why not. Here are verses 20-31.

"Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."


As a YEC these verses give me great encouragement, because they speak directly to me. I'm certainly not 'wise' by human standards, also my views are 'despised' and seen as ridiculous by the world. So my boasting, whatever it is I can boast, is in the Lord and in Him only.

I love how chapter 2 verses 6 - 16 continue:

"We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"—but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment: "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ

I hope you don't think this applies only to the message of the cross.

Which leads to one of my favorite Old Testament Scriptures: Isaiah 66:2

"All these things my hand has made, and so all these things came to be, declares the LORD.

But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word."

I try to always hold the Word of God in the highest regard. My goal is to always to approach it with a humble and contrite spirit, always holding it in reverance. I'm not always successful, but if I'm rebuked I'll gladly receive it, especially if it points me to a better understanding.

If you can show me through Scripture how I'm wrong, I will truly welcome it, but if your rebuke is solely through man's knowledge, then please withhold it.

 

[vossler]

God does not need our help. But the way I've seen Christians contort themselves and scripture in the name of God would lead me to believe that they believe God to be an invalid.

That's quite an interesting assessment; how do come to that?

As for Verse 20, while completely applicable in its day to show that the powers-that-be at the time, such as the Pharisees, were going to have their intellectual worlds turned upsidedown by the message of the cross, it was not intended nor can be used as a general diatribe against all scholars and scholarly work.

No one stated all.

Paul is making a statement about the nature of salvation, and you can even see that in some regard it is self-referantial since Paul was a recognized scholar of his time. Paul is not making the statement, "God hates science and knowledge."

Another inference that wasn't even remotely stated.

And if that is how Creationists see evolution, as the foolishiness of the world, then they should be quick to remind themselves that the knowledge of evolution comes directly from the world, God's own Creation.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree because for me it comes directly from the mind of man, no where else.

 

[Lilandra]

that is very rare in these discussions.

I also thank you for expanding on this verse.

I wasn't trying to make verse 18 about Genesis. My point there was to show that the lost are so because they see the cross as foolishness. For them it is their wisdom that is most important. If one spends anytime in C & E we can see this manifested in full. To the non-believer we (believers) are foolish because their wisdom is far superior. What is their wisdom based upon? Why science of course.

But I am afraid that it doesn't follow nonbelief based on science is bad therefore science is bad.

I look at it this way gravity exists whether science is studying it or notm it is natural. Because science is attempting to understand it is fine with me. It doesn't threaten my belief system. Evolution is the same.

As for verse 20 it would be good to continue reading, so why not. Here are verses 20-31.

But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.

I think this part of the verse fits in nicely with what Chaos Christian was telling you about the context or environment which the verse was written. Many of the disciples were simple fishermen. Their adversaries the Pharisees and Romans were considered educated.

Still they did not forgo using scholarship. Jesus was more learned and adept with scripture then most of the priests.

And yes, it is the message of the cross they are refering to.

It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."


As a YEC these verses give me great encouragement, because they speak directly to me. I'm certainly not 'wise' by human standards, also my views are 'despised' and seen as ridiculous by the world. So my boasting, whatever it is I can boast, is in the Lord and in Him only.

Then why can you not humble yourself enough to try to examine what God created? Why impose uopn God's Creation? You will never see it the way God created it that way.

All these things my hand has made, and so all these things came to be, declares the LORD.But this is the one to whom I will look: he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at my word."

I try to always hold the Word of God in the highest regard. My goal is to always to approach it with a humble and contrite spirit, always holding it in reverance. I'm not always successful, but if I'm rebuked I'll gladly receive it, especially if it points me to a better understanding.

If you can show me through Scripture how I'm wrong, I will truly welcome it, but if your rebuke is solely through man's knowledge, then please withhold it.

I can point you to a better understanding of the universe but you have to admit first that you don't already know the way God created things.

The universe is a wonderous place. If you didn't fear evolution you would see just how wonderous a mechanism of creation it is.

 

[vossler]

that is very rare in these discussions.

I also thank you for expanding on this verse.

Your welcome!

But I am afraid that it doesn't follow nonbelief based on science is bad therefore science is bad.

Considering I never said it was, I guess that's good!

I look at it this way gravity exists whether science is studying it or notm it is natural. Because science is attempting to understand it is fine with me. It doesn't threaten my belief system. Evolution is the same.

I have no problem with people studying science either. Science is good as long as it uses empirical results that support its hypothesis. Unfortunately, science steps well beyond those bondaries and does some far fetched speculations. That is further compounded when those same ideas contradict the Bible. As Christians, I believe, we should never allow this.

I think this part of the verse fits in nicely with what Chaos Christian was telling you about the context or environment which the verse was written. Many of the disciples were simple fishermen. Their adversaries the Pharisees and Romans were considered educated.

Still they did not forgo using scholarship. Jesus was more learned and adept with scripture then most of the priests.

And yes, it is the message of the cross they are refering to.

Nor do I or any other YEC, that I know of, ask anyone to forgo using scholarship. Knowledge is good, especially when it is used to further the kingdom of God. Unfortunately, it rarely is.

Then why can you not humble yourself enough to try to examine what God created? Why impose uopn God's Creation? You will never see it the way God created it that way.

Oh I've examined God's creation and I stand in awesome wonder. What an awesome God it is we serve. His creation is beyond anything any of us can ever even begin to understand. The last thing I would ever do is impose upon His creation. That's just it...evolution does exactly that! It imposes man's explanation, which cheapens the actual creation, by stating God needed evolution in order to create. He wasn't able to do as He said He did, it just wasn't believeable so we, man, came up with a theory that was.

I can point you to a better understanding of the universe but you have to admit first that you don't already know the way God created things.

Oh, I can readily admit that, I have no idea how God created things. Again, it is evolution that states it knows, not YEC.

The universe is a wonderous place. If you didn't fear evolution you would see just how wonderous a mechanism of creation it is.

Actually I don't fear evolution, I don't fear anything made by man. If there is anything to fear it is the author of evolution, Satan himself.

 

[chaoschristian]

That's quite an interesting assessment; how do come to that?

By observing the behavior of posters on CF who do exactly that.

No one stated all. Another inference that wasn't even remotely stated.

And this is exactly why you need to do more than just post snippets of scripture with no supporting commentary. But consider how I've seen these verses used in the past in the context of the topic of this discussion, then my interpretation was warranted.

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree because for me it comes directly from the mind of man, no where else.

I am sorry that the majesty and mystery of God's Creation seems so lost on you.

 

[chaoschristian]

Actually I don't fear evolution, I don't fear anything made by man. If there is anything to fear it is the author of evolution, Satan himself.

Is this hyperbole, or do you really believe this?

 

[vossler]

Is this hyperbole, or do you really believe this?

No hyperbole required, I don't have much use for it.

 

[chaoschristian]

No hyperbole required, I don't have much use for it.

Wow. Ok, let me ask you this, in an attempt at understanding: do you view Creation as basically corrupted, and therefore deceiving?