The Doctrine of "Universalism" (Christian Universalism or Otherwise) True or False? (3)

[IamRedeemed]

I was afraid Liz's question would start another left field conversation.
Please everyone can we take other topics to other threads?
She just asked me a simple question personally.
As my OP does mention that OSASers need to hear those Scriptures as well
that are in the OP. And just fyi, I do not believe anyone can "lose" their salvation.
You lose a set of car keys or your glasses. You don't just "lose" your salvation.
But I don't want to get into it here. If you want to debate OSAS please create a thread and
send us an invite. Thanks in advance for not participating in a derail.

I know this question was not directed at me but I would just like to say that, having believed in OSAS myself, and having debated in favor of it in the past, there is definitely the same concern expressed about it by those who believe that salvation can be lost. Martin Luther's quote about "Sin and sin boldly..." would get thrown in my face repeatedly (not here -- this was another discussion group a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away). "Of OSAS is true, then you can sin all ya want and still go to heaven. You can just sin, sin, sin...." would be, more or less, the mantra.
That's just my 0.02....
​

 

[IamRedeemed]

ROFL!!! (pendulum swinging)

Thank you Nadiine!

I know you are no heretic - some of my posts were also misunderstood - I was only countering what I thought were denial's of Christ's full Deity -

(as the Pendulum Swings)

 

[Nadiine]

The Gospel of Christ is NOT "eternal security of the Lost". That is what the problem is here (getting back to topic).

That is NOT the gospel of Christianity. Therefore, I consider it heresy becuz it gives false sense of salvation to those who reject Jesus Christ and continue to live in sin.

 

[IamRedeemed]

<snipped copy/paste for brevity>

Yes, the provision IS sufficient for ALL, if ALL were to repent.
Unfortunately as Jesus said in His own words by His own mouth,
only FEW will repent and choose the narrow road that leads to LIFE
and receive it. Matthew 7:13, 14

Men are kinda smart, but I believe Jesus is omniscient, which makes
His view a whole lot more reliable and trustworthy, dontcha think?

 

[Armistead]

I'm thinking of experimenting with Beer-Jello. Cuz then you could have all three Lutheran favorites in both hands. The Beer-Jello salad in one hand and your coffee in the other. LOL

 

[Kerai]

I have a question for the ET brothers ans sisters.

God, who is all knowing, allows me to be born, knowing in advance that I will not be accepting Jesus as my personal savior, then sends me to hell. Why would he let such a person be born in the first place?

 

[Floatingaxe]

I have a question for the ET brothers ans sisters.

God, who is all knowing, allows me to be born, knowing in advance that I will not be accepting Jesus as my personal savior, then sends me to hell. Why would he let such a person be born in the first place?

Because He loves.

People mate without one care about His will. They have children indiscriminately, mostly. God doesn't interfere where He isn't invited!

Think about this: Would a loving God cause babies to abort or die before birth just to avoid living a hell-bound life?

Wouldn't a loving God provide life for a person, offering him the truth about Himself and in spite of his ultimate rejection of salvation, give him the most wonderful privilege of being alive and knowing love on this big blue marble we call home?

Think about that!

 

[icedtea]

I have a question for the ET brothers ans sisters.

God, who is all knowing, allows me to be born, knowing in advance that I will not be accepting Jesus as my personal savior, then sends me to hell. Why would he let such a person be born in the first place?

I believe there is a verse somewhere (I am bad with finding verses) which says something like Those he has appointed for destruction. Anyone?

 

[Nadiine]

I have a question for the ET brothers ans sisters.

God, who is all knowing, allows me to be born, knowing in advance that I will not be accepting Jesus as my personal savior, then sends me to hell. Why would he let such a person be born in the first place?

LOVE.

If God didn't offer us a freedom of choice (God & righteousness or Satan & unrighteousness), then He'd have created robots that have no capacity to love or reject Him.
That's what the purpose of free choice is - God allowing us life and to make decisions with it.

Many nonChristians make similar assertions to ask why God would create a person KNOWING their life would be miserable & full of terminal disease, mental illness, poverty, abusive parents/spouses, drug addiction, persecution, starvation, prostitution & the lists go on.

We can't use our rationality like that (judging God by human happiness or joy or comfort) to deem that God can't do something becuz it makes people feel terrible, hate God, suffer loss or have extreme pain & misfortune etc.

Salvation is thru faith and it's a choice.

I ask the same question of any UR as to why God would have everyone go thru this life's tragedies and sufferings when we all end up at the same place anyways -
it seems redundant and ...... possibly cruel. What point is there to any of it when we'd all accept God anyways?

People lose their lives under persecution for Christianity - for the very people who kill them & get there themselves anyways.

We can reason against either side - the importance is what scripture says, not what we reason.

 

[firstborn888]

LOVE.

If God didn't offer us a freedom of choice (God & righteousness or Satan & unrighteousness), then He'd have created robots that have no capacity to love or reject Him.
That's what the purpose of free choice is - God allowing us life and to make decisions with it.

Many nonChristians make similar assertions to ask why God would create a person KNOWING their life would be miserable & full of terminal disease, mental illness, poverty, abusive parents/spouses, drug addiction, persecution, starvation, prostitution & the lists go on.

The difference is all the above ARE a part of the curse of the law. Eternal torment is not (read the OT).

You who champion free-will over everything else, do you think we have free-will in heaven? If so then you can look forward to more rebellions, more judgments more chaos - forever. Of course we know that will not be the case, but I'm trying to make you think about why that won't be the case. Is it because we will be robots?

blessings,
- Byron

 

[IamRedeemed]

A Hardy !

LOVE.

If God didn't offer us a freedom of choice (God & righteousness or Satan & unrighteousness), then He'd have created robots that have no capacity to love or reject Him.
That's what the purpose of free choice is - God allowing us life and to make decisions with it.

Many nonChristians make similar assertions to ask why God would create a person KNOWING their life would be miserable & full of terminal disease, mental illness, poverty, abusive parents/spouses, drug addiction, persecution, starvation, prostitution & the lists go on.

We can't use our rationality like that (judging God by human happiness or joy or comfort) to deem that God can't do something becuz it makes people feel terrible, hate God, suffer loss or have extreme pain & misfortune etc.

Salvation is thru faith and it's a choice.

I ask the same question of any UR as to why God would have everyone go thru this life's tragedies and sufferings when we all end up at the same place anyways -
it seems redundant and ...... possibly cruel. What point is there to any of it when we'd all accept God anyways?

People lose their lives under persecution for Christianity - for the very people who kill them & get there themselves anyways.

We can reason against either side - the importance is what scripture says, not what we reason.

 

[Floatingaxe]

The difference is all the above ARE a part of the curse of the law. Eternal torment is not (read the OT).

You who champion free-will over everything else, do you think we have free-will in heaven? If so then you can look forward to more rebellions, more judgments more chaos - forever. Of course we know that will not be the case, but I'm trying to make you think about why that won't be the case. Is it because we will be robots?

blessings,
- Byron

Of course we will have free will in heaven. We will be glorified, righteous saints and not have the curse of sin on us! We will have attained the level of being that we were created for!

 

[IamRedeemed]

Hi HD Good to see you Sis.
That's Romans chapter 9 I believe you are
referring to.

I believe there is a verse somewhere (I am bad with finding verses) which says something like Those he has appointed for destruction. Anyone?

 

[Crazy Liz]

LOVE.

If God didn't offer us a freedom of choice (God & righteousness or Satan & unrighteousness), then He'd have created robots that have no capacity to love or reject Him.
That's what the purpose of free choice is - God allowing us life and to make decisions with it.

I can understand God giving humans freedom so those who love God would do it freely.

Many nonChristians make similar assertions to ask why God would create a person KNOWING their life would be miserable & full of terminal disease, mental illness, poverty, abusive parents/spouses, drug addiction, persecution, starvation, prostitution & the lists go on.

And after that, eternal torment, right?

We can't use our rationality like that (judging God by human happiness or joy or comfort) to deem that God can't do something becuz it makes people feel terrible, hate God, suffer loss or have extreme pain & misfortune etc.

God can do anything God wants. But if God claims to love people God is going to torment eternally, we can judge God a liar. If God is going to torment people eternally, then God certainly does not love them.

Salvation is thru faith and it's a choice.

I ask the same question of any UR as to why God would have everyone go thru this life's tragedies and sufferings when we all end up at the same place anyways -
it seems redundant and ...... possibly cruel. What point is there to any of it when we'd all accept God anyways?

I don't understand your thinking here.

People lose their lives under persecution for Christianity - for the very people who kill them & get there themselves anyways.

You mean like Jesus forgave those who killed him?

We can reason against either side - the importance is what scripture says, not what we reason.

Don't we need to use our reason to understand scripture?

 

[munchycrunchy]

I can understand God giving humans freedom so those who love God would do it freely.

And after that, eternal torment, right?

We can't use our rationality like that (judging God by human happiness or joy or comfort) to deem that God can't do something becuz it makes people feel terrible, hate God, suffer loss or have extreme pain & misfortune etc.

God can do anything God wants. But if God claims to love people God is going to torment eternally, we can judge God a liar. If God is going to torment people eternally, then God certainly does not love them.

I don't understand your thinking here.

You mean like Jesus forgave those who killed him?

Don't we need to use our reason to understand scripture?

Exactly. Nobody could ever torture someone for eternity if they loved them, and there's NO way around that. When I was forced to punish my niece for doing something wrong while taking care of her, she got time out. She didn't get time out for eternity. She got time out for 10 minutes. The point of punishment is correcting someone, not just doing it because you can. That's child abuse.

Eternal torture is NOT just, nor does it contain any love at all. You don't torture someone out of love. You torture someone out of anger, hatred, or disgust. Jack the Ripper mutilated his victims and made them suffer a terrible death. Why? Because he hated them, was disgusted with them, and was obviously psychotic. That wasn't even eternal, but someone can easily be astonished and saddened by what he did to his victims, yet at the same time, eternal torment in fire is "just" for others.

 

[IamRedeemed]

I can understand God giving humans freedom so those who love God would do it freely.

Good! That is an excellent start!

And after that, eternal torment, right?

After what? Rejecting their opportunity to repent and be reconciled unto God all their lives?
Well, let's see there are two paths, one leads to Heaven, once leads to hell......
If we take the path that leads to hell, and we take no detours offered to us along our
lives that would get us on the path that leads to Heaven, where do you think the
path that leads to hell ends up at?

hmmm... Hell?

BINGO!

]We can't use our rationality like that (judging God by human happiness or joy or comfort) to deem that God can't do something becuz it makes people feel terrible, hate God, suffer loss or have extreme pain & misfortune etc.

God can do anything God wants. But if God claims to love people God is going to torment eternally, we can judge God a liar. If God is going to torment people eternally, then God certainly does not love them.

Where in the Scripture does it say that God is going to torment people at all? And which posts here by those on this side of the debate have ever said that God is going to torment people eternally?
I have never read those Scriptures myself, and have never seen anyone here in this debate claim that.

I don't understand your thinking here.

You mean like Jesus forgave those who killed him?

The only person Jesus granted Salvation to at the cross was one of the thieves.

As far as those who killed him goes.....
Jesus saying "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do."
is not the same as granting them Salvation.

There are natural and temporal consequences for sin are there not? There were also people who heard Jesus say that. Perhaps it was even more for the benefit of those who heard it, that upon hearing Him say such a thing, if they didn't believe before, they might repent and believe now. Ever thought of that?
But to read into it that they were granted Salvation, is quite the stretch.

Don't we need to use our reason to understand scripture?

Well, that depends on what you mean by that. If you mean do we subject the spiritual things of the Lord to the natural humanistic and relativistic ways of man, the answer is no. The Bible tells us to lean NOT unto our own understanding but trust the Lord with all of your heart. (Proverbs 3:5) It also says if any of us lack wisdom to ask of the Lord who will not hold it back from us but will give it to us abundantly. (James 1:5)

The Bible also tells us that the Holy Spirit will teach us. He will lead and guide us into ALL TRUTH (John 16:13) and that confusion is of the devil, therefore, if we have not the understanding, it is because we didn't ask Him for it. The Bible tells us that God wants to get wisdom and get understanding. (Proverbs 4:5) It is God's will for us to know what His will is regarding these things. That is why He revealed to mankind His written Word.
Of course the humanistic and relativistic natural minds of men cannot comprehend the sovereign ways of God. Are we surprised? God's not.

But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

 

[IamRedeemed]

"Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."

God does not love everyone.
In a nutshell, He loves the world, generally speaking.
He loves mankind, generally speaking.
But HE HATES evil doers and those whose feet run to do evil.
He hates liars and He hates those who love death.
It is disgusting to God, abominable and a stench to His nostrils.

I can understand God giving humans freedom so those who love God would do it freely.

And after that, eternal torment, right?

We can't use our rationality like that (judging God by human happiness or joy or comfort) to deem that God can't do something becuz it makes people feel terrible, hate God, suffer loss or have extreme pain & misfortune etc.

Exactly. Nobody could ever torture someone for eternity if they loved them, and there's NO way around that. When I was forced to punish my niece for doing something wrong while taking care of her, she got time out. She didn't get time out for eternity. She got time out for 10 minutes. The point of punishment is correcting someone, not just doing it because you can. That's child abuse.

Eternal torture is NOT just, nor does it contain any love at all. You don't torture someone out of love. You torture someone out of anger, hatred, or disgust. Jack the Ripper mutilated his victims and made them suffer a terrible death. Why? Because he hated them, was disgusted with them, and was obviously psychotic. That wasn't even eternal, but someone can easily be astonished and saddened by what he did to his victims, yet at the same time, eternal torment in fire is "just" for others.

 

[Kerai]

First I'd like to thank the ET's who replied.
The only answers I ever got from this question, that I asked when I was 13 years old and not a Uni. yet, was, God can choose not to know. Well...that went over like a Led Zep. I think it ironic that Love is stated by the ETer's as the reason God would let someone be born with the full knowledge that he'll be sending them to hell when they die, and the Uni's believe Love is the reason that God has saved all men's spirits to spend eternity with him, regardless of what they did in the flesh.
I'll check other post, as I was out eating Italian and having a bottle of wine, to see if my next question has been answered.
How or what kind of love is it that would allow such a thing, that God knowing full well, send a spirit to hell?

 

[Kerai]

"Jacob I loved, Esau I hated."

God does not love everyone.
In a nutshell, He loves the world, generally speaking.
He loves mankind, generally speaking.
But HE HATES evil doers and those whose feet run to do evil.
He hates liars and He hates those who love death.
It is disgusting to God, abominable and a stench to His nostrils.

I can understand God giving humans freedom so those who love God would do it freely.

And after that, eternal torment, right?

I don't know how you would quantify the fact that God does not love everybody after he has told us to "love our enemies", mainly speaking to the Jews in regards to the Gentiles. And that God is not a "respecter of person's." Also, "For God so loved the world."
You may need to rethink the meaning of "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated." I'll give you a hint....the promise verses the law.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Well, you must know that what you were told was unScriptural, because God is Omniscient, which means He knows all things and that is just the way it is.

The rest of your post is simplistic and natural reasonings of man. You are using your natural mortal mind to try to discern the spiritual and eternal things of God. That is not going to work, not now, not ever.

But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 2 Corinthians 2:14

God is God and we are not. If we don't understand, then we ask the Lord for the understanding, and we wait for that understanding in the meanwhile trusting Him with our whole hearts. But we do not adjust His Word to suit ourselves to our liking, making God instead in our image or making unto ourselves an image of God that we prefer, which is exactly what the doctrine of Universalism does.

Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean not unto your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct your paths.

First I'd like to thank the ET's who replied.
The only answers I ever got from this question, that I asked when I was 13 years old and not a Uni. yet, was, God can choose not to know. Well...that went over like a Led Zep. I think it ironic that Love is stated by the ETer's as the reason God would let someone be born with the full knowledge that he'll be sending them to hell when they die, and the Uni's believe Love is the reason that God has saved all men's spirits to spend eternity with him, regardless of what they did in the flesh.
I'll check other post, as I was out eating Italian and having a bottle of wine, to see if my next question has been answered.
How or what kind of love is it that would allow such a thing, that God knowing full well, send a spirit to hell?