The Doctrine of "Universalism" (Christian Universalism or Otherwise) True or False? (3)

[IamRedeemed]

Spiritually speaking, Adam was, before the fall. But we are all seeds after its own kind.
We were all born of corruptible seed, because once Adam and Eve sinned,
corruption entered in. So, while our bodies may still be in the image (as in form) of God's,
our souls are not, that is why Jesus said, we must be BORN AGAIN.

Aren't we already created in God's image?

 

[IamRedeemed]

I read all about Nestorianism a little while ago, and before I did
I thought you all had misunderstood me, and now I KNOW YOU HAVE!!!

I am no Nestorian. Nestorians believed that only the man part of Jesus
went to the cross. That somehow He was two separate beings here on earth.
Not so. Polycarp you would be right, that FAKE JESUS
couldn't save anyone!

I am in no way "espousing the heresy of Nestorianism".

So, let that be abundantly clear.

And this is the blackest heresy -- explicit Nestorianism, I believe, but I'm not an expert on the historical aspects of heresiology.

If you read the 15th chapter of First Corinthians, you'll see precisely what is wrong with your heretical outlook, and why suh a fake jesus could not save.

By the way, this is Christian forums, you know, the religion that believes that the Word of God became Flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth (I John 1:1-14) and truly rose from the dead in a glorified body (Matt 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, John 20-21, I Cor 15). You're welcome to worship the Bible as the Word of God, but Christians know it was and is Jesus Christ, truly God and truly man.

Because it is such a broad topic, though, that we have need of jargon to help us communicate broad terms efficiently among those who discuss them a lot.

It's rather like pronouns. I can say, "Jill wanted to go to the store, so Jill got Jill's handbag and headed out the door. Jill saw Jill's neighbor, Bob working in Bob's garden, so Jill stopped and said hello to Bob." Or I can use pronouns to make it flow more smoother. We understand that "he" in this instance would refer to Bob, and that "she" and "her" would refer to Jill.

Similarly, I can say, "I disagree with your statement because it seems that you are espousing the doctrine that Christ exists as two natures, the man Jesus and the divine Son of God, or Logos, rather than as a unified person. In my opinion, the doctrine that Christ exists as two natures, the man Jesus and the divine Son of God, or Logos, rather than as a unified person is inaccurate because Scripture clearly teaches that He is both fully man and fully divine at the same time. While some Scripture passages teach on one or the other, when you focus on just one, you tend to fall into the doctrine that Christ exists as two natures, the man Jesus and the divine Son of God, or Logos, rather than as a unified person. Thus, I suggest that you take the Scriptures as a whole, so that the doctrine that Christ exists as two natures, the man Jesus and the divine Son of God, or Logos, rather than as a unified person does not creep into your beliefs. "

It would be much easier to use the term "Nestorianism" instead of the italicized phrase. And in this era of Google, there's little excuse for not being able to figure out what it means. Now, granted, I overdid it a bit, to make the point. And I fully agree that it would be much clearer communication to use the first instance to explain what Nestorianism is, and thus use the term afterward with the confidence that my reader would understand.

But this is one of those perpetual topics that comes up every couple of threads, or at least seems to. Sometimes folks write to a particular issue or post, and forget those who might be lurking or participating only peripherally.

 

[Zecryphon]

"No True Lutheran drinks lite beer." (I'm making notes to help understand, since with the ELCA/ECUSA agreement, us Episcopalians have to learn those things. )

As for the stein-in-each-hand policy, clearly that's why Ein-stein-ianism is false doctrine!

I'm thinking of experimenting with Beer-Jello. Cuz then you could have all three Lutheran favorites in both hands. The Beer-Jello salad in one hand and your coffee in the other. LOL

 

[CaDan]

I'm thinking of experimenting with Beer-Jello. Cuz then you could have all three Lutheran favorites in both hands. The Beer-Jello salad in one hand and your coffee in the other. LOL

You are a genius.

 

[Zecryphon]

You are a genius.

And with that compliment, I now retire from this thread.

 

[tkoman]

A heresy by any other name . . .

 

[Polycarp1]

I read all about Nestorianism a little while ago, and before I did
I thought you all had misunderstood me, and now I KNOW YOU HAVE!!!

I am no Nestorian. Nestorians believed that only the man part of Jesus
went to the cross. That somehow He was two separate beings here on earth.
Not so. Polycarp you would be right, that FAKE JESUS
couldn't save anyone!

I am in no way "espousing the heresy of Nestorianism".

So, let that be abundantly clear.

I hope, then, that you will understand why I reacted so vehemently and angrily to what I misunderstood you as having said. I dislike strongly the views of some secularists that "Jesus was only a man who undestood God, and nothing more." I dislike equally strongly the idea that "Jesus was totally and exclusively God, wearing the mask of being human." In Jesus, the omnipotent, omniscient God the Son, through whom all things were created, God's Logos or effective, puissant Word, became also a human being, totally and completely human as we are, knowing our joys and sorrows, our hopes and fears, our love, our faith and even our doubt (cf. his prayer in the Garden or his cry from the Cross "Eloi eloi lama sabachthani"). Only from Man was the debt for sin due; only God could pay it. And only someone truly God and truly man could in one person pay that debt. More -- He was Man as God intended Man to be, as Adam and Eve were before the Fall and no one but Him has been since. The Orthodox concept of theosis, rendered into evangelical-speak as "entire sanctification," is founded in this. "He became as we are in order that we may someday become as He is." -- Not meaning gods, but human beings transformed, bearing a new mind (Metanoia) through rebirth in Him and the slow work of grace within us transforming us. That, not merely saving us from our just punishment, is the true miracle of the Atonement. And to get there required the Incarnation -- He, the only-begotten Son, became human in order that we might become sons and daughters of God by adoption and grace -- worthy to stand before Him not merely because He has forgiven our sinful selves, but because He has remade us into what He intended us to be.

Anything short of that orthodoxy is failing to convey the Good News, the Gospel, as He intended. And, like you, it is my duty to fight for the Truth of God's Grace in Christ.

 

[Floatingaxe]

If you had ever read any of IAmRedeemed's posts, you would know she does not espouse heresy or secular beliefs in any way.

Vehemence should be reserved for Universalists who espouse some of the deepest error out there--they do not know who God is---they deny His complete nature as portrayed throughout all Scripture.

 

[Crazy Liz]

OK, I started a new thread on the question about Jesus' humanity. Please continue that discussion here:

http://christianforums.com/t6949150-is-jesus-still-human.html#post44134939

 

[IamRedeemed]

If you were familiar with any of my nearly 5,000 posts, then you would surely know that I would not and do not espouse any such things. Further, had you read even just a few of my posts in this conversation, rather than just the one you pounced on, you would have realized that you had seriously misunderstood and would not have "reacted so vehemently" toward me. I do, however forgive you. I have made that error before as I am sure many of us who would dare to admit it have.

I hope, then, that you will understand why I reacted so vehemently and angrily to what I misunderstood you as having said. I dislike strongly the views of some secularists that "Jesus was only a man who undestood God, and nothing more." I dislike equally strongly the idea that "Jesus was totally and exclusively God, wearing the mask of being human." In Jesus, the omnipotent, omniscient God the Son, through whom all things were created, God's Logos or effective, puissant Word, became also a human being, totally and completely human as we are, knowing our joys and sorrows, our hopes and fears, our love, our faith and even our doubt (cf. his prayer in the Garden or his cry from the Cross "Eloi eloi lama sabachthani"). Only from Man was the debt for sin due; only God could pay it. And only someone truly God and truly man could in one person pay that debt. More -- He was Man as God intended Man to be, as Adam and Eve were before the Fall and no one but Him has been since. The Orthodox concept of theosis, rendered into evangelical-speak as "entire sanctification," is founded in this. "He became as we are in order that we may someday become as He is." -- Not meaning gods, but human beings transformed, bearing a new mind (Metanoia) through rebirth in Him and the slow work of grace within us transforming us. That, not merely saving us from our just punishment, is the true miracle of the Atonement. And to get there required the Incarnation -- He, the only-begotten Son, became human in order that we might become sons and daughters of God by adoption and grace -- worthy to stand before Him not merely because He has forgiven our sinful selves, but because He has remade us into what He intended us to be.

Anything short of that orthodoxy is failing to convey the Good News, the Gospel, as He intended. And, like you, it is my duty to fight for the Truth of God's Grace in Christ.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Thank you FA!

If you had ever read any of IAmRedeemed's posts, you would know she does not espouse heresy or secular beliefs in any way.

Vehemence should be reserved for Universalists who espouse some of the deepest error out there--they do not know who God is---they deny His complete nature as portrayed throughout all Scripture.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Oh, is there still a need to discuss it further?
I thought my last post to you would have cleared
several things up for you.

Edit to add: okay, I see you posted the last post there and
asked others what they think.

What do YOU think?

OK, I started a new thread on the question about Jesus' humanity. Please continue that discussion here:

http://christianforums.com/t6949150-is-jesus-still-human.html#post44134939

 

[IamRedeemed]

The Doctrine of "Universalism" (Christian Universalism or Otherwise) True or False?

Since there seems to be a few "Universalists" that seem to enter into other threads, attempting to present what I believe is "another" Gospel whenever a means to segway into it presents itself, it has been agreed that this topic should have a thread of its own so we can get down to brass tacks. No matter what variances there may be between your regular variety of Universalists and those who insist that there is a difference because they are called Christian Universalists, it has been my experience that all of the varieties have the same end and that is they believe ALL will be saved no matter what. (as you may have already guessed, I am not a Universalist)

Since I believe that the souls of people who listen to Universalists are at risk, these would therefore be then considered
ESSENTIAL doctrines and definitely should be discussed in the open rather than veiled under the guise of other topics.

So, I am going to present several Scriptures that clearly refute the doctrine of Universalism of any kind and welcome those who believe in Universal Salvation to come and make their cases and reconcile their belief with these Scriptures. OSAS believers might want to tune in as well as all of the Scriptures I plan to share are directed to believers who have believed on Christ and not unbelievers.


Jude 1:3-6
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

In other words, Jude is saying, "I was all set to encourage you in our common salvation, but a more urgent need arose for me to exhort you in the faith because some are creeping in among you sowing false doctrines and if you listen to them, you can lose your soul! Therefore if you aren't sure I am telling you the truth that your souls are at stake, let me bring to your remembrance the Israelites who God saved out of Egypt and then destroyed because of unbelief. Oh, and incase you think you are better than them, let me then remind you that God spared not the angels who forsook the estate that God gave them with Him in Heaven and followed after foolishness losing their own home and whose days have been numbered and will be destroyed."


Hebrews

Where do I start in the Book of Hebrews? There are so many!
I'll try to keep my commentary brief to get through these. They are pretty much self explanatory anyway.


Hebrews 2:1-3
For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, ifwe hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;

exhort:
–verb (used with object) 1.to urge, advise, or caution earnestly; admonish urgently. –verb (used without object) 2.to give urgent advice, recommendations, or warnings.
Hebrews 4:1-2
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Hello??? Just checking in with ya to make sure you are still watching this.

Hebrews 4:11
Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
(what? Labor? but why?...isn't everyone going to be saved anyway? Why not just kick back and enjoy? hmmmm )
Moving on......

Hebrews 6:4-8
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes upon it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:38-39
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
What? There are some that draw back unto perdition? Does that mean backslide to the point of no return?Yes it does. Lord have mercy.

Hebrews 12: 15-17
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For you know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Hebrews 12:25-29
See that you refuse not him that speaks. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he has promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

James 5:19 (this refers to a believer, one who backslid)
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, (that's SECOND DEATH) and shall hide a multitude of sins.

2 Peter 2:4-9
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Clearly there is more to show you and I will, but this ought to provide a clear foundation in which to start. We haven't even finished with Peter or gotten to the word penned by John.

 

[Nadiine]

If you were familiar with any of my nearly 5,000 posts, then you would surely know that I would not and do not espouse any such things. Further, had you read even just a few of my posts in this conversation, rather than just the one you pounced on, you would have realized that you had seriously misunderstood and would not have "reacted so vehemently" toward me. I do, however forgive you. I have made that error before as I am sure many of us who would dare to admit it have.

I know you are no heretic - some of my posts were also misunderstood - I was only countering what I thought were denial's of Christ's full Deity -

(as the Pendulum Swings)

 

[Crazy Liz]

Since I believe that the souls of people who listen to Universalists are at risk, these would therefore be then considered
ESSENTIAL doctrines and definitely should be discussed in the open rather than veiled under the guise of other topics.

So, I am going to present several Scriptures that clearly refute the doctrine of Universalism of any kind and welcome those who believe in Universal Salvation to come and make their cases and reconcile their belief with these Scriptures. OSAS believers might want to tune in as well as all of the Scriptures I plan to share are directed to believers who have believed on Christ and not unbelievers.

Since you are trying to bring this discussion back to the issues you raised in the OP, I'd like to ask you a question. Do you think the souls of those who listen to OSAS believers are at risk in the same way as the souls of those who listen to universalists?

 

[Armistead]

Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile (apokatallasso) all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

How marvelous and how wonderful this scripture is! This is unquestionably and without any doubt, the full good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no bad news here whatsoever. It leaves no room for any misinterpretation or misunderstanding. Think about it! God will do what? God will reconcile ALL things on earth and ALL things in heaven through Jesus Christ having made PEACE through the blood of His cross.

Please note that the construct of the verses above is such that it leaves absolutely no room for any doubt whatsoever that the word ALL can only mean ALL without any exception. The Holy Spirit, who inspired Apostle Paul to write these verses, repeats the word ALL seven times before coming to the key verse, verse 20, where it says that God will reconcile all things to Himself through Jesus Christ. If you believe verse 16 that Jesus Christ created all things in heaven, all things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, then you have no option but to also believe verse 20 which says that Jesus Christ will reconcile to God the Father the same all things which He created.

Traditional Christianity, because of its long established and entrenched belief in the doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell, is unable to accept at face value, the glorious truth contained in verse 20. This is why it has failed to understand God's Plan of Universal Reconciliation, which God is working out in Ages through Jesus Christ.

If you believe in the doctrine of endless torment in hell, then you do not fully believe in Colossians 1:15-20, and most probably in your mind you have added to or taken away from the truth contained in these verses. Jesus Christ warns us not to add to or take away from His Word. (Revelation 22:18-19) The Bible is the Word of God and it never contradicts itself. The doctrine of hell and the truth of universal reconciliation through Jesus Christ cannot both be true at the same time. All contradictions in the Bible are totally due to either man's mistranslation or misinterpretation of the original relevant Hebrew or Greek words.

We challenge any person including theologians and Bible scholars, who believe in the doctrine of Eternal Torture in hell, to show us how their belief can be reconciled with the scripture Colossians 1:15-20, without adding to or taking away from its clear inspired meaning.


You may find it shocking to accept the full truth of Colossians 1:15-20, which clearly states that God will not only reconcile all men unto Himself, but He will also reconcile all fallen angels. 'Thrones or dominions or principalities or powers' as given in verse 16 above, definitely include Satan and the fallen angels. The truth that God will even reconcile Satan and the fallen angels exalts God's power, wisdom, love, forgiveness and His justice to the full. As God tells us to overcome evil with good, He also does the same. (Romans 12:17-21) God will ultimately overcome all evil with good, so that the purpose of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for universal reconciliation is fully accomplished.

Don't misunderstand, God is not soft on sin, and He never condones sin. God's power, love and His judgment will break all rebellion whether it is from men or angels. In God's time and in His order, which extends beyond this present age, all fallen men and all fallen angels will repent and willingly come to accept by God given faith, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. The Eternal Kingdom of God of the New Heaven and the New Earth will not be established until God has reconciled all things in heaven and all things on earth through the blood the cross.

The Greek word for reconcile used in Colossians 1:20 is apokatallasso. There are only three places in the whole of the New Testament where apokatallasso occurs. These are in Colossians 1:20, 21 and Ephesians 2:16. The context of these verses shows that reconciliation to God is only possible because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross who died for the sins of the whole world. (1John 2:2)


Universal Reconciliation appeals to many non-Christian groups such as Humanists, and 'New Agers', but we reject all beliefs and teachings which are not supported by the Bible. Unfortunately there are also some liberal Christian groups who claim to believe in Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ, yet they reject the authority of the Bible as the Word of God. We reject any and all liberal interpretation of Universal Reconciliation that is not totally based on the Word of God, the Bible.


. 1 Timothy 2:3-6 (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have (thelo) all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

This is a powerful scripture as it stands, because God's will to save ALL people and have them come to the knowledge of the truth cannot be frustrated by man's freewill. This scripture takes on even more force once we understand the primary meaning of the Greek Word thelo</B> is to be resolved or determined as given in Strong's Concordance (Strong's Number G2309). Therefore, a better translation of this scripture is:

1 Timothy 2:3-6
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who has resolved and determined that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

This better translation exalts the Sovereignty of God.

3. 1 Corinthians 15:22-26
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

Only the false doctrine of hell prevents people from believing the obvious truth contained in this scripture. It is one hundred percent clear that the all who die in Adam is exactly the same all that shall be made alive in Christ, which means each and every human being that has ever lived including Adam will be made alive in Christ i.e. saved.

4. Romans 5:18-19
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many (all) were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many (all) will be made righteous.

These verses once again confirm the truth that every person, without exception, will be justified and made righteous through Jesus Christ.

5. 1 Timothy 4:9-11
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.11 These things command and teach.

Notice that it is a command from God to teach the truth that God is the Saviour of All People. How can God be the Saviour of All people and yet not save them ALL?

6. Philippians 2:9-11
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

This is yet another clear and wonderful scripture that upholds the truth of Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ who died for the sins of the whole world. The false doctrine of hell can never glorify God the Father.

7. Revelation 21:1-6
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." 6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

Yes, the time will come in the future, at the creation of the New Heaven and the New Earth when Jesus Christ will bring to completion God's Plan of Universal Salvation, which He is working out in Biblical Ages. There will come the time when there will be no more pain, no more crying, no more sorrow and no more death. This will be when God the Father Himself will come down to earth to dwell with ALL people and He will be ALL in ALL. If a tormenting hell existed then these verses would be false.

 

[Rajni]

Do you think the souls of those who listen to OSAS believers are at risk in the same way as the souls of those who listen to universalists?

I know this question was not directed at me but I would just like to say that, having believed in OSAS myself, and having debated in favor of it in the past, there is definitely the same concern expressed about it by those who believe that salvation can be lost. Martin Luther's quote about "Sin and sin boldly..." would get thrown in my face repeatedly (not here -- this was another discussion group a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away). "Of OSAS is true, then you can sin all ya want and still go to heaven. You can just sin, sin, sin...." would be, more or less, the mantra

That's just my 0.02....
​

 

[Nadiine]

OSAS don't believe in "greasy grace" - quite the opposite. They accept God's grace & forgiveness, knowing that it's no license for sin and continue in repentance.

Don't forget the Corinthians who were new converts who continued to remain carnal - they were rebuked and judged. God disciplines willful sin and backsliding of believers; whether they believe in OSAS or not.

The issue is, are they saved.

UR is not founded in scripture without drastic manipulation and lack of properly dividing the word as far as I'm concerned.
OSAS is directly supported in some scriptures and has some footing without manipulation.

They aren't the same at all - OSAS are preaching the Gospel of Christ - not eternal security OF THE LOST.

 

[Nadiine]

double post*

 

[IamRedeemed]

A resounding YES!
Do I get a prize for consistency? hehehe

Since you are trying to bring this discussion back to the issues you raised in the OP, I'd like to ask you a question. Do you think the souls of those who listen to OSAS believers are at risk in the same way as the souls of those who listen to universalists?