The dividing line - Israel - The time of the end!

[ThatTrueLight]

To this day I wonder (often chuckle) what it is that makes a believer dispensational, or to at least earn that label from other believers.

Because if it's primarily seeing a difference between Israel and the Church, then every believer ought to be dispensational.

And who could have thought that the dividing line in Christianity would come down to that.

Israel.

I know that I could be wrong in so many ways, although Israel is written all over the time of the end which certainly seems to be coming upon this world at an exceedingly rapid pace.

From listening to many here it seems like the division is all because of Israel.

There's still much more to come for them or they're a thing of the past.

I find it the primary division amongst believers, and for what? God can save Israel a thousand times if He desires. Although to take a stand that God is finished with the nation of Israel is very suspect I think; why are so many people emotionally divided because of the simple thought of God saving Israel in the time of the end?

Thoughts?

 

[Biblewriter]

Non-dispensationalists of every stamp essentially always deny that the many scriptures that speak of a future restoration of Israel mean what they say.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Non-dispensationalists of every stamp essentially always deny that the many scriptures that speak of a future restoration of Israel mean what they say.

It's sad really and emotional for many people here.

I don't get why this is the case. If the bible is honored amongst Christians as God's testimony, then it should have the final say.

After reading much of the New Testament scriptures I fell in love with the Psalms and then the prophetic books. So like you say, some Christians behave as if these books do not actually exist anymore, or are somehow magically transformed into something other than what is written in them.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

There are many excellent teachers out there too. One guy went over Matthew for like a whole year it seemed and that's what tied it all together for me. Up to that point I had practically forgotten the gospel narratives, and the words of Christ bring it all together.

Practically everything in the gospel accounts is right out of the Old Testament scriptures.

And then there are awesome portions like Matthew 13 parables, they're simply mind churning and lay out the present and future time better than we might ever see it with our eyes.

 

[random person]

God is finished with Israel in the sense.

There is no more circumcision (Genesis 17:14, no Jew can obtain the land promises under the Mosaic covenant without circumcision, thus if circumcision is no longer an issue, neither are the land promises an issue either)

There is no more Temple cultus.

There is no more distinction between Jews and Gentiles. (Galatians 3:28)

And the church is here to stand forever (John 17:15,20; Ephesians 3:21)

 

[ThatTrueLight]

God is finished with Israel in the sense.

In the preterist sense of course.

In the biblical sense not by a long shot.

The LORD loves Jacob, and even calls Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

You might as well throw your bible away and just wing it.

 

[Job8]

...why are so many people emotionally divided because of the simple thought of God saving Israel in the time of the end?

Because they have decided to ignore Paul's injunction about Gentiles being "high-minded" (Rom 11:13-25):

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Because they have decided to ignore Paul's injunction about Gentiles being "high-minded" (Rom 11:13-25):

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I wonder why this is?

Why do so many ignore what Paul warns about here?

I don't believe that it's difficult or anything like that. It comes right out and says that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

So what gives?

I'd like to know why men ignore this part of God's word.

 

[Danoh]

Because they have decided to ignore Paul's injunction about Gentiles being "high-minded" (Rom 11:13-25):

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Forgive the "allegorical," but

 

[Biblewriter]

God is finished with Israel in the sense.

/snip/

And the church is here to stand forever (John 17:15,20; Ephesians 3:21)

There is nothing in either of these passages, or in any other scripture, that even suggests the idea that "the church is here forever."

 

[Biblewriter]

I wonder why this is?

Why do so many ignore what Paul warns about here?

I don't believe that it's difficult or anything like that. It comes right out and says that Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

So what gives?

I'd like to know why men ignore this part of God's word.

I believe it comes from two psychological drives. One is a desire to claim all the promises to Israel for themselves, and the other is anti-sematism.

But leaving the psycholocical area. I believe the real reason is Satan's eternal hatred of God and, in that hatred, a particular hatred of God's people Israel. So he sets about to deceive people, and to blind them to what God is saying. For this reason, he tries to persuade people to ignore the promises to Israel.

In this way Satan accomplishes two goals.

First, he uses these falsehoods to keep people from loving Israel.

And second and probably far more important to Satan, he disgraces God by causing many of God's real people to deny much of what God so very explicitly said.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

I believe it comes from two psychological drives. One is a desire to claim all the promises to Israel for themselves, and the other is anti-sematism.

But leaving the psycholocical area. I believe the real reason is Satan's eternal hatred of God and, in that hatred, a particular hatred of God's people Israel. So he sets about to deceive people, and to blind them to what God is saying. For this reason, he tries to persuade people to ignore the promises to Israel.

In this way Satan accomplishes two goals.

First, he uses these falsehoods to keep people from loving Israel.

And second and probably far more important to Satan, he disgraces God by causing many of God's real people to deny much of what God so very explicitly said.

Wow, nice explanation!

 

[ThatTrueLight]

It must be very difficult for any person who may have been brought up to hate Israel etc. There's just an unending hatred toward one anther it seems between Jews and Muslims.

I wonder if it's difficult for a Muslim who comes to Christ to embrace Israel etc, if they've been conditioned from birth it seems to be enemies. Or if it's difficult for a Jew who comes to Christ to embrace a Muslim, etc.

 

[Danoh]

It must be very difficult for any person who may have been brought up to hate Israel etc. There's just an unending hatred toward one anther it seems between Jews and Muslims.

I wonder if it's difficult for a Muslim who comes to Christ to embrace Israel etc, if they've been conditioned from birth it seems to be enemies. Or if it's difficult for a Jew who comes to Christ to embrace a Muslim, etc.

Depends on how each individual sees things [given where each is looking at things from, to begin with].

A good friend of mine is Muslim. Born North American but raised in the Middle East. Another is Jewish. Born and raised in North America.

The Muslim one is more devout than most others I know; is married to a Muslim, and so on. The Jew could care less about his religious heritage. His girlfriend is a so called "born again."

Both these two men get along very well.

Do they disagree on things. Yes. Profoundly so.

But their overall scope, or view, overrides their more specific, individual view.

As to Christ, I get as nowhere with either of them, as I do with other friends of either same belief, or what have you.

We all get along despite our differences, due to each our overall view, despite each our specific one.

Our overall scope, or big picture view, being, we might as well get along with one another.

Boy do we have our debates and disagreements. Yet, we love one another.

We each assert the other is off - way off. At the same time we each appear to believe that we are all on this same planet, we ought to get along despite our differences.

To me, they're still lost without Christ, likewise as to each of them as to each their beliefs as to this.

Nevertheless, we are all still here on this same planet; might as well get along.

Not compromise our beliefs, but not persecute one another given each our supposed "answer."

People see us together and right off conclude we're "a good Jew... a good Muslim... a good Christian..." or what have you.

We each know what's what as to said "good" - people's own, one size fits all, perception.

For boy do we each give each other hell as to our respective beliefs, even as we sit down with one another to - "no, no, its my turn to pick up the tab."

Again, it depends on each's overall view...

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Cool post Danoh

 

[Danoh]

Thanks...

My own longer view is that on time three of the U.S.s' greatest allies - Great Britain, Germany, and Japan - were once its greatest enemies, all the way down to the childhood classmate sitting next to one in school.

Its almost as that never happened.

Japan having been the toughest to crack of the three as theirs had been a war in the name of an Emperor they had believes was divine.

But the issue ever turns out the same - "God" or no "God" brought into the mix - but for the few attracted to the hypocrisy out of their own conceit, the vast majority of any culture's younger generation sees through the farce.

Quietly vowing to themselves what the vow within themselves as to "when I grow up..."

Hence, how Egypt was practically toppled by so young a generation merely through that and a smartphone...

Ask young Palestinians and Israeli's - theirs is not their prior generation's passion for the present state of things...

Still, that reminds me of an old sci-fi movie where the Earth was at last at peace as to racial strife and now some other world was its target...

 

[ThatTrueLight]

I don't see the Israeli / Muslim situation just fading away into the past.

End time events speak of all nations coming against Israel.

It will most likely get a lot worse before it gets any better for Israel.

 

[Danoh]

I don't see the Israeli / Muslim situation just fading away into the past.

End time events speak of all nations coming against Israel.

It will most likely get a lot worse before it gets any better for Israel.

Agreed...

I was just noting the above turning out the case in the interim - all false senses of peace, in the end.

Even those two will eventually, albeit, erroneously, "say peace and safety" prior to "sudden destruction..."

It is in light of that false peace and it's destruction following that He taught them to pray the words that He did in that Our Father prayer - every aspect of that prayer connected with that coming day of Jacob's trouble...

 

[ThatTrueLight]

It is in light of that false peace and it's destruction following that He taught them to pray the words that He did in that Our Father prayer - every aspect of that prayer connected with that coming day of Jacob's trouble...

No kidding, deliver us from evil.

Who can imagine what that nation has been through and continues to go through, it goes on and on and on and on.