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The Differences Between Jesus Christ AND Christ Jesus

Discussion in 'Dispensationalism' started by Terral, Jun 23, 2007.

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  1. Terral

    Terral Senior Member

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    Greetings to All:

    This Thread is dedicated to debate over the differences between Jesus of Nazareth who walked this earth AND Christ Jesus mentioned only in the Pauline Epistles. Jesus Christ is the ‘incarnation’ of Christ Jesus on this earth, while Christ Jesus is the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water); as a ‘three are into the one’ (1John 5:8) Heavenly “man” (1Tim. 2:5). The “Word” made flesh is Christ Jesus (F+S+HS) who has been in the “Highest Heaven” (1Kings 8:27 = "Heaven" of Genesis 1:1 = diagram) since the very beginning. Jesus Christ is The Word “made flesh” (John 1:14) on this earth, who is the “Son of THAT Heavenly Man,” which makes Him the “Son of Man” (Matt. 9:6). In other words, Christ’s title of “Son of Man” has everything to do with Him being the smaller version of “Christ Jesus” (F+S+HS), which has NOTHING to do with being a son of Adam at all. One of the best ways of visualizing the differences between Jesus Christ AND Christ Jesus of Paul’s Epistles is by reading the verses from this passage:

    Every believer in our gospel has been ‘crucified with Christ’ (Gal. 2:20), so that God has raised us up “with Him” to seat us “with Him” (Jesus of the flesh) IN the heavenly places “IN” Christ Jesus. This simple reading of Scripture should tell you that “Christ Jesus” is indeed very much LARGER than “Jesus Christ” who has been seated “IN Him” AND all believers WITH HIM in the heavenly places. Scripture says of Christ Jesus “The Word,”

    Take a good look at Jesus of Nazareth from the Four Gospels and ask yourself if ‘all things’ in this universe can fit “IN” Him? No sir. There is no reference to “Christ Jesus” made anywhere outside the Pauline Epistles, because the “Christ Jesus” Paul knows is the Father + Son + Holy Spirit as “three are into the ONE” (1Jn 5:8) Heavenly “man” (1Tim. 2:5) Christ Jesus “IN” whom this entire universe (seen AND unseen) is held together. Those of us truly “IN” Christ Jesus are contained by God’s Living Word that has existed as the Father + Son + Holy Spirit since LONG before God sent Him into the world to save anyone.

    [​IMG]

    The Word (John 1:2) is standing between the Two Veils of the 'True Tabernacle' as the Heavenly “man” Christ Jesus, which shows the Father (spirit) and Son (blood = soul) and Holy Spirit (water = body) of “Christ Jesus.” Our tiny little earth is an itsy bitsy little spec in the “Earth” portion under the Heavens (spirit) and Heaven (blood) of “This Creation.” Jesus Christ incarnated onto our tiny little earth to represent “The Word” made flesh (John 1:14) or the “Son” (smaller version) of THAT Heavenly “Man” standing between the Two Veils. However, this is a linear view of what truly looks like an egg:

    [​IMG]

    The golden shell representing God’s Infinite Realm extends in all directions, but the red “Word Realm” (F+S+HS) depicts “Christ Jesus.” This Creation is truly “IN” Christ Jesus, as each and every molecule is held together “IN” Him. God uses His Word like a glove, because His touch apart from His Son would destroy This Creation in the blink of an eye. Nothing that is Infinite can touch a finite host, without the intercessory work of God’s Living Word. While Jesus Christ incarnated into the little blue ball of our Creation, Christ Jesus continued to contain this entire universe at the very same time. When God raised Christ from the dead and seated Him above ‘all the heavens’ (Eph. 4:10 = of This Creation in blue), then Jesus Christ was seated “IN” Christ Jesus or the red “Word Realm” which is “Heaven” to this entire Creation. Scripture says,

    Do you see a difference between “Christ Jesus” and Jesus of the flesh?

    In Christ Jesus even now,

    Terral
     
  2. A Brother In Christ

    A Brother In Christ Senior Veteran

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    Christ refers to King, Glorified... kmaybe a few others

    Jesus refers to humanity
     
  3. IamAdopted

    IamAdopted New Member

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  4. Terral

    Terral Senior Member

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    Hi A Brother In Christ, I Am Adopted:

    I am having a difficult time believing either of your actually read the Opening Post. Christos (#5547) still means “anointed” and Jesus Christ is still the “Son of God.” Mark 1:1. Where you derived the notion that the “Son of God = human” I haven’t a clue. Scripture says Christ was “found in appearance AS A MAN.” Philippians 2:8. Jesus Christ is “The Word” (John 1:2) made flesh (John 1:14) who had glory with the Father “before the world was.” John 17:5. How many humans are walking around “before the world was?” However, this thread is about the differences between Jesus of the flesh and “Christ Jesus” of the Pauline Epistles. Most people fail to realize only Paul refers to “Christ Jesus” in Scripture and both of you missed the truth that we are seated with Jesus Christ “IN CHRIST JESUS.” Let’s try again and this time we will break things down:

    The simple truth of Paul’s teaching thus far is that God made the believers in our gospel (Ephesians 1:13-14) “alive together WITH CHRIST.” That “power of God” (Romans 1:16) process has everything to do with being “baptized into Christ” (Gal. 3:27), so we could also be “crucified with Christ” (Gal. 2:20). In other words, God’s call (2Thes. 2:13-14) and our believing the gospel made each member of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27) an active participant with Jesus Christ in His death, burial and resurrection. However, Paul continues describing the operation of God, saying,

    The truth of these few words right here contains the truth that is escaping your notice. God raised us up “with Jesus Christ,” as the members of His body and seated us “with Jesus Christ” IN the heavenly places that are “IN CHRIST JESUS.” Here you have Jesus Christ (“Him*”) mentioned twice in the SAME VERSE with “Christ Jesus” and yet both of you continue to believe the two represent the same thing. Did Jesus of the flesh walk around with the ‘heavenly places IN CHRIST JESUS’ in Himself? No!!! Since the heavenly places themselves are “IN Christ Jesus” and we have been seated there “with Jesus Christ,” then OBVIOUSLY Paul cannot possibly be teaching Jesus of the flesh AND “Christ Jesus” as the same things. We learn that “Christ Jesus” is much larger than even this universe from Paul’s teachings to the Colossians: “. . . all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and “IN Him” (in Christ Jesus) ALL THINGS hold together.” Colossians 1:16b+17. Would either of you like to explain how “all things” in this universe were held together “IN” Jesus of the flesh walking around on this earth?

    Paul disqualifies Jesus Christ from being Christ Jesus in the verses already cited to you in the Opening Post by saying we know Jesus of the flesh that way NO LONGER. Please pay careful attention this time and we will break the verses down:

    If the members of Christ’s body know “Christ according to the flesh that way NO LONGER,” then how are you helping our church by continuing to preach Jesus of the flesh as your “Same Jesus?” Please try to look at this discussion as your brother “IN Christ Jesus” trying to show you something far GREATER about “The Son of God, Christ Jesus” (2Cor. 1:19), who continued to hold ‘all things’ in this universe together before, during and after Jesus Christ walked this earth. We can agree that Jesus Christ is the “same Jesus” as “Christ Jesus,” but because He is the ‘incarnation’ of the Larger “The Word” containing this universe. In other words, “you are gods” (Ps 82:6, Jn 10:34) incarnate here from God’s Infinite Realm, which means the man you see in the mirror is indeed the ‘same’ as your INFINITE self far beyond the realm of time and space. However, you as a ‘man’ on this earth represent a mere ‘image’ (like Christ = Col. 1:15) of your ‘god’ self standing in God’s courtroom in His Infinite Realm right this moment as we speak. Paul above is teaching that we are to look pass and FAR beyond “Jesus of the flesh” to learn about the ‘new things’ connected directly to “Christ Jesus” into whom every believer has been seated. If you are going to begin understanding your own “new creature” status, then you must begin comprehending the substance of the truth Paul is seeking to convey:

    How are you bringing the things to Light about our positions “IN Christ Jesus,” by trying to convince everyone using two words that these old and new things relate to the SAME JESUS? Paul says “IF anyone is “IN” Christ,” because many believe they are “IN Christ Jesus” who are truly NOT AT ALL. Those among you running from thread to thread teaching “Jesus of the flesh” are missing out on a VAST treasure trove of hidden knowledge and wisdom extending FAR beyond the reaches of this entire universe. The old things passing away pertain to THE EARTH and the things of this earth, which means this universe and the things visible to be held and touched. However, these “NEW THINGS that ‘have’ come for those of us “IN Christ” are from the “Highest Heaven” (1Kings 8:27) where we have been seated IN those heavenly places IN Christ Jesus. Just one of those “New Things” to be understood is that “Christ Jesus” is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit joined together as a ‘three are into the One’ (1Jn 5:8) Heavenly MAN (1Tim. 2:5). Many point to this verse and say, “Look – Jesus Christ is a man!” No sir. Paul is talking about “Christ Jesus” who contains this entire universe AND the heavenly places that are “IN Him” (Eph. 2:6). Paul is teaching on the truth that “The Word” containing this universe is indeed “Christ Jesus” with a spirit witness (Father), a water witness (Holy Spirit) and the Only Begotten result of their union (The Son) in the SAME WAY that you have a spirit, body and soul (man).

    [​IMG]

    All of the mystery diagrams begin the same way from a Singularity Expression, which in this case is “The Word” of John 1:2 who is by this time “with God” at His right hand. Do you see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the Word sharing the same glory “before the world was.”?? No sir. Why not? They are the ‘same thing’ joined together as The Logos. Please pay careful attention for the ‘new things’ Paul is talking about:

    Paul is not talking about God raising Jesus Christ from the dead after Calvary here, but about raising “The Word” (Christ Jesus = F+S+HS) up LONG before sending Him into this universe to die for anyone. Satan had destroyed this universe and made everything VOID (Genesis 1:2), which transformed the Singularity Expression (The Earth = Gen. 1:1) into the ‘triune’ heavens, heaven and earth. God could not send “The Word” into this now broken triune creation, because He continued to exist in His Singularity Expression form! God’s original sacrifice of “The Word” is what gave us the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the first place, so the two (Father + Holy Spirit) could be rejoined into This:

    [​IMG]

    This operation of God transformed “The Word” into His current triune form of “Christ Jesus” (F+S+HS), so THEN Jesus Christ (Son of THAT Heavenly Man) could incarnate into our triune universe as “Jesus of the flesh.” The process of Jesus Christ incarnating into this world (Luke 1:35) is a microcosmic recreation of God putting “Christ Jesus” back together again as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in Heaven.

    [​IMG]

    All things being subjected back to “The Son” (in red = 1Cor. 15:27) even includes the summing up of the Father (spirit witness) AND the Helper (John 16:7) we know as the “Holy Spirit” (water witness). You say, “What? You are destroying the Father and the Holy Spirit!!??” Remember that “before the world was” (Jn 17:5), that They all existed as “ONE” and as “The Word,” which is exactly where all Three shall return in this mystery process! You also have a spirit, body and soul, but you are being “conformed to the ‘image’ of His Son.” Romans 8:29. The day is coming also when your spirit, body and soul will be ‘one’ and the same thing, just like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are being transformed by God back into The Word of John 1:2 and THEN back into Himself (John 1:1), when God is once again “all in all” (Col. 15:28).

    My diagrams teach the ‘new things’ for the members of Christ’s body who are truly “IN CHRIST JESUS,” while everyone else will conclude them to be nonsense. :0). However, even the very least among you should begin to realize that Jesus of the flesh we know that way NO LONGER is part of the ‘old things’ passing away to make room for the ‘new things’ that have come. 2Cor. 5:16-17. That in no way implies that we are to ‘forget’ about Jesus of the flesh, because every word He utters in the Four Gospels contains a lesson pointing to the ‘new things.’ The journey towards all of those new things begins, when you are truly “IN” Christ Jesus and begin to recognize the difference.

    In Christ Jesus with Jesus Christ even now,

    Terral
     
  5. IamAdopted

    IamAdopted New Member

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    We are to know no man according to the flesh. This is true. Jesus is a life giving Spirit. I never knew Jesus according to the flesh. I wasn't here when He walked the earth. But Jesus is the same today yesterday and forever. :)
     
  6. A Brother In Christ

    A Brother In Christ Senior Veteran

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    depending in context

    some place's where the Christ is used it describes the body as Christ as the head the church as the body
     
  7. Terral

    Terral Senior Member

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    Hi Adopted:

    While your first statement pertains to Paul’s teaching in 2Corinthians 5:16-21, and the second is about the last Adam (1Cor. 15:45), you are missing the point of my two posts (OP and #4) on this topic. The simple truth is that Jesus of Nazareth walked this earth “found in appearance AS A MAN” (Phil. 2:8), but This Creation (heavens, heaven and earth) has been contained “IN” The Word as “Christ Jesus” (F+S+HS) from the very beginning. Jesus Christ was heralding the “Gospel of the Kingdom” (Matt. 4:23) to Israel of the flesh (Mark 1:14-15) as the “Gospel of God” AND continued to exist as the “three are into the one” (1Jn 5:8) Heavenly “Man” Christ Jesus (1Tim. 2:5) at the very same time. The heavenly places themselves are contained “IN” Christ Jesus, so that all believers in our gospel can be seated in them “with Christ” IN Christ Jesus (F+S+HS). Ephesians 2:6. Since all things are held together “IN” Christ Jesus (Colossians 1:17) and all things obviously do not fit “IN” Jesus of Nazareth, then you should be capable of recognizing the VAST differences.

    Paul is not talking about knowing Jesus of Nazareth personally in the flesh! You know about the “supposed son of Joseph” (Luke 3:23) from Scripture. You know our father Adam in the incarnation as a man (Genesis 2:7+) through Scripture also, even though he is very much a ‘god’ (Ps 82:6, Jn 10:34) incarnate here from God’s Infinite Realm like all the sons of Noah.

    [​IMG]

    This exercise is as much about showing “IAmAdopted” his true identity, as it is about showing the differences between Jesus of Nazareth and “Christ Jesus” (F+S+HS) containing this entire universe. Things are NOT as they appear to us right now from our water witness ‘incarnations’ on the tiny little “Our Earth” in Figure 3 depicting “This Creation.” The “Visible Universe” you see in the sky on a clear night is a very small proportion of all that is visible AND invisible (Col. 1:16). All of the spirit witnesses (God To Come, Father, Heavens) are very much ‘greater than I’ (Jn 14:28) meaning FAR greater than their corresponding water witness and blood witness. Man (spirit witness) has a far greater glory (image and glory of God) than his water witness (woman) counterpart in the very same way having the ‘glory of man’ (1Cor. 11:7). Spirit and water witnesses possess an oil versus water relationship, so they do not mix easily, but that overshadowing (Luke 1:35) process brings the only begotten ‘blood witness’ into being. The common characteristic of all ‘tabernacles’ is they are TRIUNE having exactly one spirit witness, one water witness and exactly one begotten ‘blood witness’ and the “three are into the one” precisely as you see for these three witnesses standing side by side in Figure 1, Figure 2 and Figure 3. “Christ Jesus” in Figure 2 is the ‘true tabernacle’ God is talking about here in Hebrews 8. Remember the job of the ‘High Priest’ is to traverse through the two veils of the Temple, or the stone house version of the Tabernacle Of Moses for the benefit of all the people.

    Adam (3 into one with Eve and her seed IN him = Gen. 2:7) and the Ark of the Covenant and the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple and even the 66 books of Scripture are laid out precisely according to the triune pattern of the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) contained in “Christ Jesus” (living tabernacle), as God’s Living Word containing this universe. Paul reveals the precise location of this heavenly tabernacle that David and Solomon refer to as the “Highest Heaven” (1Kings 8:26+27) [my notes]:

    God raised Jesus of Nazareth up above ‘all the heavens’ of Figure 3, and of This Adamic Creation, to seat Him “IN” the “Highest Heaven” (middle of Figure 2) at His Right Hand “IN” Christ Jesus. Look over to the “Second Veil” (between Fig. 1 and 2) to realize God has pushed that into the very heart of “Christ Jesus” in order to create His Throne “IN” Him. All of the sons of God combined pushing with our entire collective might could not budge that veil one centimeter, but our God can move the entire thing with the tip of His pinky finger. :0). While our universe (Fig. 3) is finite and God’s Realm (Fig. 1) is INFINITE, Christ Jesus as the intermediary “One Mediator” Realm between God and men is the “IMAGE [almost infinite] of the Invisible God.” (Col. 1:15). God had to push the Second Veil into His Son Christ Jesus, because that is the only way He who is INFINITE can actively participate with men within the Realms of time and space (Fig. 2+3). Look at the words of Ephesians 4:10 again for the purpose for God (Eph. 3:11 = ‘purpose of the ages’) seating Jesus of the flesh at His Right Hand (but still IN the Word Realm itself) is so He (Christ) can ‘fill all things.’ This aspect of Paul’s “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:26) is only understood by recognizing the VAST differences between Jesus of the flesh at God’s right hand AND Christ Jesus (F+S+HS) at God’s right hand as two completely separate Realms you see in these diagrams. Why??? Prepare yourself for ‘the truth’ that every member of Christ’s body has a duplicate of “Christ Jesus” (F+S+HS = the entire Word Realm of Figure 2) IN themselves as the “mystery among the Gentiles” and “Christ IN you.” Colossians 1:27.

    [​IMG]

    Figure 1 depicts “You” with a bottomless pit in the soul of your being ‘hearing’ (Romans 10:17) the triune ‘Word concerning Christ’ (our gospel). The Spirit of God’s Word (the Father) is leading the way into “heaven in you” (your soul) and carrying along the “faith of Jesus” (Romans 3:26) and the “Holy Spirit of promise” (Eph. 1:13-14), as the predecessor to “Christ Jesus” being IN you. In other words, your triune spirit, soul and body are mirror images of Figure 1+2+3 above (This Creation, The Word and God), while Christ as “High Priest” is entering the “Word Realm” (Fig. 2) EXACTLY as God seated Christ at His Right hand (your spirit). Figure 2 shows “Your inner man” with “My Father who is in heaven” in your spirit and the Holy Spirit in your mortal body (1Cor. 3:16, 6:19) and the “Son” (Christ in you) being in the place where those two seas overlap. You must feed “Christ in you” the Living AND Active (Heb. 4:12) Word from the Pauline Epistles, so He will enlarge daily and allow “God” (His three witnesses = Rev. 1:8) to also enlarge “IN” Him. The completed process of Figure 3 shows God in the Holy Place of Christ in you AND in You (your soul), as the three red (blood witnesses) eternally become “three are into the one” (1Jn 5:8) IN you. Therefore, we are not only talking about the differences between Christ Jesus containing this universe and Jesus of the flesh, but also growing up to realize that “Christ in you” is the microcosm of the Heavenly Man Christ Jesus containing this universe. Paul continues in Ephesians 4, saying,

    While “Christ Jesus” contains even this entire universe and the heavenly places where we are seated (Eph. 2:6), all of the members combined represent the ‘body of Christ’ with Jesus of the flesh at the very top as the “Head” of our “Church.” Ephesians 1:22, 5:23, Colossians 1:18. Now try to imagine a mirror duplicate of the ENTIRE WORD REALM being ‘in’ you, so Jesus Christ ‘can’ indeed ‘fill all things.’ Look at Christ in you as a fabulous precious multifaceted Jewel with many faces that includes all of your brothers and sisters IN Christ Jesus. :0). THAT is how we are all members of one another (Romans 12:4-5) “IN Christ Jesus” AND as we have been for eons “IN God” in His Infinite Realm. In other words, part of our growing up “IN” the Son of God is realizing the differences between our ‘incarnation’ in this Adamic Universe (Fig. 3) AND our Word Realm “new creation” (Eph. 2:10 = 2Cor. 5:16-17) status “IN” Christ Jesus AND ourselves as Infinite “gods” way over in Figure 1 of the first diagram! In other words, from our “gods” perspective in Figure 1, then “Christ Jesus” and “This Universe” He contains represent a mere drop of water (Christ) holding a tiny little grain of sand IN Himself. Remember that this entire universe is just one “son of God” (Luke 3:38) in our father Adam, murdered by Satan and his cronies, and This Creation (heavens, heaven and earth) is only his ‘incarnation’ from God’s Infinite Realm “IN” The Word Christ Jesus. That is why Christ says,

    Christ is revealing ‘the truth’ that He and God are ONE and the same thing in Figure 1 (God’s Infinite Realm) where our Creator called us to exist as Infinite ‘gods.’ God and His Word continue to be ONE in that Infinite Realm, because Figure 2 (Word Realm) is just one tiny chip off of “The WORD” block!!! We are tiny even as ‘gods’ to The WORD in Figure 1 of the first diagram above, but we are FAR greater than the entire Word Realm (Christ Jesus) being ‘Infinite’ ourselves. However, from our ‘incarnation’ in Figure 3 (you as a man or woman), then we are tiny little hosts in comparison to “The Word” and like a grain of sand to even ourselves as ‘gods’ from Figure 1. However, if you continue refusing to acknowledge the VAST differences between Christ Jesus holding this universe together as “The Word” (F+S+HS) AND Jesus of the flesh ‘incarnate’ found “in appearance AS A MAN” (Phil. 2:8), then we cannot even begin going into the deeper things about you being seated “IN” the heavenly places “IN” Christ Jesus AND Christ being seated in the heavenly places “IN” you. :0)

    Now you are citing evidence from Hebrews 13:8, which has much deeper and broader (Eph. 3:18) lessons than many currently realize. Jesus Christ has been “The Word” containing this entire universe from the very beginning and HAS NOT CHANGED since God divided Him into the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus of Nazareth is still the ‘incarnation’ of Christ Jesus having the appearance as a man and as the “Son of God” also is the same yesterday, today and to the end of time itself (1Cor. 15:27). Does Christ in you ‘change’ from being the Son of God incarnate in heaven within your being? No! However, men still have a BUNCH of growing up to do in realizing these three realms are being merged together into ‘one’ like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in Heaven above (Word Realm) and in you. A proper understand of the elemental precepts taught in lessons on this thread gives an entirely new and broader understanding of what I mean by closing and saying,

    In Christ Jesus even now,

    Terral
     
  8. Jerrysch

    Jerrysch Senior Veteran

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    So are you suggesting that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are one and the same person?
     
  9. Terral

    Terral Senior Member

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    Hi Jerry:

    Yes. The Father (spirit witness), Son (blood witness) and Holy Spirit (water witness) are the three witnesses testifying about “The Word” (John 1:2) containing this creation (heavens, heaven, earth) IN Him. Colossians 1:17. Jesus Christ is the “Son of Man” or the microcosmic image of that larger Heavenly “Man” Christ Jesus (F+S+HS). “My Father who is in heaven” is the “spirit witness” of ‘Christ Jesus’ (The Word) like “The Son” is the ‘blood witness’ representing the ‘soul’ of Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the “water witness” Helper (John 16:7) representing the ‘body’ of Christ Jesus in the same exact way that Eve (water witness) is for Adam (spirit witness) and her seed (blood witness) back in the Garden. Therefore Adam (Gen. 2:7) with Eve and her seed “IN him” is typical of “The Word” (John 1:2) with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit also “IN Him.” You will also find that Scripture itself follows the same “Living and Active” (Heb. 4:12) pattern with the OT being the “spirit witness” (3x13 = 39), the Pauline Epistles (13) being the “blood witness” and Kingdom Epistles (13) being the “water witness” coming from His side mimicking the Holy of Holies and the Temple like this:

    [​IMG]

    The “Book of Acts” is the transitional “First Veil” with components of the Kingdom and Pauline Epistles establishing the transition between the ‘water and blood’ (1Jn 5:6) witnesses of the New Testament. In each case the Singularity Expression (The Word, This Creation, Adam) see a “spirit witness” (Father, Heavens, Adam, Old Testament) from whom the “water witness” (Holy Spirit, Earth, Eve, Kingdom Epistles) is taken to become the ‘helper’ or intercessory priest. The spirit witness then overshadows (like Luke 1:35) the water witness in order that the blood witness (Son, Heaven, Her Seed, Pauline Epistles) becomes the “Only Begotten” product of that holy union of matrimony. You currently possess a spirit (spirit witness) body (water witness) and soul (blood witness) testifying about Jerry as the “singularity expression” represented in their combined testimony. If you have a family, then your wife is the ‘water witness’ helper having the ‘image of man,’ while you have the ‘image and glory of God’ (spirit witness = 1Cor. 11:7) overshadowing her to beget your ‘seed’ (blood witnesses) enlarging between you. All of these three witness mystery set scenarios are based upon the original triune relationship established between God (spirit), The Word (blood) and This Creation (water) in the beginning:

    [​IMG]

    The verses of John 1:1-3 read right along with Genesis 1:1 with God as the original Singularity Expression from Whom This Creation (water witness) and The Word (blood witness) were taken from His side. Do you see any Father, Son or Holy Spirit in this diagram? No. They all share the same glory “before the world (This Creation) was” (John 17:5) in “The Word” (John 1:2). Do you see any Heavens, Heaven or Earth in the water witness position of ‘Eth Erets from Genesis 1:1? No. They also share the same glory in the singularity expression of This Creation. You are looking at the triune ‘tabernacle’ view of a truly ‘Living Organism’ with features and characteristics mirroring this egg format ( http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/18.jpg ), as every ‘water witness’ is held together “IN” the blood witness like This Creation is held together “IN” The Word (Col. 1:16+17). Do you see any such thing as “God To Come” (spirit), “God Who Is” (blood) or “God Who Was” (water), testifying about "The Almighty" (Rev. 1:8) anywhere in the diagram above? No. They are all testifying from the ‘spirit witness’ position about The Word and This Creation (Adam) from the original three witness mystery set establishing the types for ‘all’ of the triune witnesses of Scripture. If the three witnesses above (God, The Word, The Creation) are Peter, John and James and we give each their own three witnesses like this . . .

    [​IMG]

    . . . then 3 + 9 = the original 12 testifying about God, The Word and This Creation from Figure 2 as one “Man Of God” connecting three realms as an even larger “man” with a spirit (God’s Infinite Realm), a soul (Realm of the Word) and body (This Creation) and “the three are into the one” (1Jn 5:8) in the image of the Son (F+S+HS) explaining God (Jn 1:18). You will also find that Scripture is filled with a myriad of three witness mystery sets . . .

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    . . . testifying about the Singularity Expressions from the first column on the left with the same two veils standing between them. Therefore, “rightly dividing the word of truth” (2Tim. 2:15) is recognizing the precise location where these dividers MUST be found within God’s Triune Living Word. Woman wears a symbol of authority on her head “because of the angels” (1Cor. 11:10), because of the ‘relationship’ between angels (spirit), men (blood) and woman (water). That divider of authority symbolizes the division of heaven (blood) and the earth (water) and the woman as the ‘weaker vessel’ (1Peter 3:7) having the glory of man (This Creation). Every spirit witness (column 2) from the two charts above testifies not only about the blood and water witnesses in their own triune mystery set (horizontally), but about ‘all’ of the spirit witnesses sharing their same column behind the Second Veil vertically. Once your Bible is rightly divided, according to this series of patterns, then the Spirit of the Text becomes not only “Living” but very much “Active” in testifying about God’s Living Word. In short: God intends for all of His sons to interpret Scripture through the testimony of His Triune Mystery Sets, as each testify about Him as the Ultimate Singularity Expression containing us all as “gods” (Ps 82:6, Jn 10:34) in His Infinite Realm. Recognizing “Christ Jesus” (F+S+HS) as “The Word” (John 1:2) containing this entire universe (Col. 1:17) is the beginning of making all of that a reality for the son of God (water witness bondservant) with Christ in you (Col. 1:27 = blood witness) and God IN Christ (2Cor. 5:19 = spirit witness) making you the triune Temple of the Living God (final picture in Post #7).

    In Christ Jesus (F+S+HS = The Word),

    Terral
     
  10. Jerrysch

    Jerrysch Senior Veteran

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    Quote:
    Jerry >> So are you suggesting that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are one and the same person?




    So when Jesus was addressing the Father to whom was He speaking?

    Mt 3:13Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. 14John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" 15But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he consented. 16And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him,[b] and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17and behold, a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son,[c] with whom I am well pleased."

    Who were these then?
     
  11. hizlamb

    hizlamb Depends on my mood

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    Jerry..

    Terral doesnt say it..God does:

    1 John 5:7
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
     
  12. Jerrysch

    Jerrysch Senior Veteran

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    I think you are mising the point of one in this passage, just as in;

    [h3]Genesis 2:24 [/h3]

    24Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.


    The three are one God, but they eternally exist as Father Son and Holy Spirit. Three persons within the one God.

    When Messiah was on earth in the incarnation the Father was still in heaven as was the Holy Spirit. They gave witness to this in Mark 1: 9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." Here we see the three peosons of the Godhead present distinctly from each other.
     
  13. Jerrysch

    Jerrysch Senior Veteran

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    The two title of Messiah have the same meaning, they do not point to two different individuals. In the NT "Jesus Christ" is rendered 132 times while "Christ Jesus" is rendered 87 times. It is quite a bit like the use of kingdom of God and kingdom of heaven, same kingdom different expression.

    Even in Romns 1 were Paul states;

    1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart ...

    He also states; 5Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
    7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
    Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Same person diferent titles.
     
  14. hizlamb

    hizlamb Depends on my mood

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    Where do you see that I missed the point?

    All I said was God said it, not terral

    Am I missing something else? Cuz it isnt the trinity..
     
  15. Jerrysch

    Jerrysch Senior Veteran

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    Terral is saying that the Father is the Son is the Holy Spirit. It is a error known as Oneness theology;

    Oneness theology denies the Trinity and teaches that God is a single person who was "manifested as Father in creation and as the Father of the Son, in the Son for our redemption, and as the Holy Spirit in our regeneration."1 Another way of looking at it is that God revealed himself as Father in the Old Testament, as the Son in Jesus during Christ’s ministry on earth, and now as the Holy Spirit after Christ’s ascension.

    http://www.carm.org/oneness/whatisoneness.htm
     
  16. Terral

    Terral Senior Member

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    Hi Jerry:

    Jesus (The Son = soul of Christ Jesus) is speaking to “My Father who is in heaven,” as the ‘spirit witness’ of Christ Jesus. In the beginning was “The Word” who God sacrificed to become the Father and Holy Spirit exactly like This Creation became the heavens (spirit) and the earth (water). The Father overshadowed the Holy Spirit and the “Son” became the Only Begotten exactly like the heavens (invisible universe) overshadowed the earth (visible universe) and “Heaven” (Gen. 1:8) also became the only begotten. Your spirit overshadowed your physical body (water), so your ‘soul’ (blood witness) became the only begotten product of that union in the very same way. Jesus Christ speaking to and about “My Father who is in heaven” is typical of your soul speaking to and about your own spirit.

    The Father, Son and Holy Spirit testifying about “The Word” (Christ Jesus) in heaven are becoming “one” in their “Son of Man” incarnation we know as Jesus Christ on this earth. Jesus Christ testifies that “I am IN the Father and the Father is IN Me” (John 14:12) and Scripture declares Him “full of the Holy Spirit” (Luke 4:1). This makes Jesus Christ the walking, talking Image of “Christ Jesus” (The Word) who contains this entire universe IN Himself, as He holds all things together (Col. 1:16+17). When Christ speaks of “My Father who is in Heaven” or the “Helper” (John 16:7 = Holy Spirit), then He is revealing secrets of “Christ Jesus” as a triune ‘realm’ that contains this entire universe (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/18.jpg ).

    [​IMG]

    Peter, John and James witnessed the joining of Elijah (spirit), Christ (blood) and Moses (water), as those three are also into the one (1Jn 5:8) as a triune mystery set from the two diagrams above (Post #9). Christ was showing them the triune “New Jerusalem” (Rev. 21:1+) given by God from the Highest Heaven (Kingdom of His Beloved Son) where you see the Father Realm on the right and the Holy Spirit (in blue) Realm on the left. “Christ Jesus” is that entire Realm with His Spirit (Father) on the right and His Body (Holy Spirit) on the left. Down below you have this universe that is actually “IN” Christ (fig 18 above), but this is the ‘tabernacle’ view laid out like the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple. While the upper realm is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Christ Jesus) being restored, the lower “Adamic Realm” (heavens, heaven and earth) represents just one “son of God” (Luke 3:38) also laying on his side facing your right on the same altar of sacrifice. Everyone pictured in this diagram with heads towards the top of the page is an ‘incarnation’ of someone from God’s Infinite Realm shown above as a Singularity Expression. Every man on the “World” (the earth) side of the equation has a greater half (angel) testifying on the Angels (heavens) side of the equation. We judge the world (men) and the angels (their spirit witnesses), as promised in 1Cor. 6:2+3, because those are two witnesses of the same singularity expression host. :0) The Kingdom of Heaven standing between them is the realm where the two become joined into one (put on immorality = 1Cor. 15:51-53), which is in the future of all men and angels attaining to their singularity form of the perfect ages of Genesis 1:1. The “voice” from Heaven is from the “Highest Heaven” (1Kings 8:27 = Heaven of Gen. 1:1) as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Christ Jesus) are testifying about their “Son of Man” (Jesus Christ) earthly ‘incarnation’ counterpart. This is what makes Christ on earth the “Son of THAT Heavenly Man” who contains this entire universe.

    In Christ Jesus,

    Terral
     
  17. Jerrysch

    Jerrysch Senior Veteran

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    I have tryed but I just can't follow you. Origin would be jealous of your allegorizing method.
     
  18. Terral

    Terral Senior Member

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    Hi Jerry:

    No! Your false doctrine is the product of those blinded by Denominationalism, which explains why you cannot see the differences between Jesus Christ and “Christ Jesus” in whom this universe is contained (Col. 1:17). You run around the topic like a busybody (2Thes. 3:11, 1Tim. 5:13) without ever addressing the points made in the Opening Post of this thread. The Three witnesses of “The Almighty” are standing with Him in Revelation 1:8, while the three witnesses of “The Word” (F+S+HS) are listed in Matthew 28:19. You obviously do not know the difference.

    These are simply lies told against the truth of God’s Living Word. You have already been shown that truth from John 14, which says,

    The Holy Spirit was also ‘seen’ descending out of heaven and remaining on Christ (John 1:32), which is the sign to John the Baptist that Jesus Christ is the “Lamb of God” and the “Son of God.” John 1:29, 34. Jesus Christ IS the incarnation of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in one Living Tabernacle “IN” whom GOD (His God and Father = Rev. 1:6) dwells! That is how the fullness of God’s Deity dwells in Christ (Col. 2:7) in the first place.

    No sir. We see the three witnesses of “The Word” representing the SON OF GOD (John 1:34) distinct from each other. There is no room in your broken theology for the God To Come (spirit witness), God Who Is (blood witness) and their priestly God Who Was (water witness) mirror image of the Holy Spirit serving the Father (spirit witness) and the Son (blood witness) of The Word. You have transformed the three witnesses of “The Word” into those of “The Almighty,” which is what IDOLATRY is all about.

    Bullony! That Pentecostal (Heh) Oneness Bull has nothing to do with anything presented by me on this thread. Can you go to any Oneness site and find anything resembling my mystery diagrams? No. Who among them teaches the three witnesses of “The Almighty” as God To Come, God Who Is and God Who Was from Revelation 1:8? NONE OF THEM. Jerry is using cheap name calling tactics rather than simply “quote >>” me to point out any errors using Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15. He does not even begin to understand the simple aspects of my teaching, which he admits to in Post #17:

    Rather than even try to debate me on the differences between Jesus of the flesh we know that way “NO LONGER” (2Cor. 5:16-17) and Christ Jesus IN whom the heavenly places are contained (Eph. 2:6), he takes these cheap shots by pasting links that have NOTHING to do with anything I am showing you in this thread. Let’s take a peek at his Oneness nonsense and try to draw some comparisons to anything in my Opening Post presentation:

    Jerry’s foolishness >> http://www.carm.org/oneness/whatisoneness.htm

    Is this Terral’s teaching? No! In fact, this is Jerry’s teaching already quoted atop this thread, as these people are saying exactly what Jerry says. Of course there is only “one God” (1Tim. 2:5) and we see “Christ Jesus” mentioned in the same verse as the “One Mediator BETWEEN GOD AND MEN.” Where is Jerry’s explanation on how Christ Jesus IS GOD and also the “One Mediator”??? I addressed that point in the first diagram from the Opening Post:

    [​IMG]

    Go to Figure 1 and follow the red arrow down from the “Heavenly Man Christ Jesus” to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit standing in the Holy Place of the Tabernacle “Between God (in Holy of Holies) and Men (in Court = This Creation). I showed you the three witnesses of Revelation 1:8 representing the “One God” and also showed how Christ Jesus is the “IMAGE of the Invisible God” (Col. 1:15) having the same triune composition. It is not that Jesus Christ is God! He is the “Son of God” (John 1:34) explaining (John 1:18) the Invisible God seen by NOBODY. Does John testify to “the truth” (John 5:33) that Jesus is God in John 1:34? No! Scripture calls Christ the “Only Begotten SON OF GOD” (John 3:18) and that is Jesus Christ giving the testimony. So why on earth does Jerry and his Denominationalism insist on switching the witnesses of “The Almighty” (Rev. 1:8) with those of the Only Begotten Son (F+S+HS) of God? He is just as guilty as the Oneness yo-yo’s who also haven’t a clue. :0)

    This “three persons” nonsense is the product of men and their Denominationalism. Scripture clearly teaches there are three ‘witnesses’ testifying and “the three are into the one.” 1Jn 5:7+8. Both Jerry and the Oneness people are confusing the three witnesses of “The Almighty” (His God and Father = Rev. 1:6) with those (F+S+HS) of the “Son of God” (Rev. 2:18). Scripture teaches that Christ is that the ‘right hand of God’ (Col. 3:1-3) making intercession for us right now (Rom. 8:34), but Jerry wants to transform the “Son of God” into “God!” anyway. :0)

    Now I ask our third party judges in this debate if this man-made dogma resembles the substance of ‘my’ teaching in the Opening Post, OR exactly what is coming out of JERRY’S MOUTH? Jesus Christ is speaking and saying,

    I am also speaking ‘the truth’ about the three witnesses of “The Almighty” (Rev. 1:8) and those testifying (F+S+HS) about Jesus Christ as the “Son of God.” John 1:34. Jerry and these Oneness People are murdering “His God and Father” who raised His Son from the dead (Rom. 10:9) to replace HIM (the One God = 1Tim. 2:5) with the “One Mediator” OF THE SAME VERSE!!!!

    Okay, here is Jerry’s grand opportunity to explain how he completely removes the “one God” from the picture to replace Him with “Christ Jesus” who is supposed to be standing ‘between God and men.’ He can do the same thing for Colossians 3:1-3 and Romans 8:34 where Christ is at the ‘right hand of God’!!! He reaches over with his eraser to delete the “one God” from existence entirely, to prop up his IDOLATRY and create an idol from He who is IN HEAVEN:

    And yet Christ teaches over and over again about “My Father who is IN HEAVEN” (Matt. 10:32+33, etc.) and Himself as the “Living Bread that came down out OF HEAVEN.” John 6:51. The Holy Spirit descended from where?

    Christ was obviously ‘seen’ (John 1:34) like the Father (John 14:9) and the Holy Spirit right here in John 1:32. However, “No one has seen God at ANY TIME . . .”. John 1:18. Again, Jerry and these Oneness Pentecostals have replaced the three witnesses of The Almighty (Rev. 1:8) with those of His Only Begotten Son (F+S+HS). Jerry’s accusations have fallen straight back onto him! :0)

    In Christ Jesus (the Word = F+S+HS = The Son of God),

    Terral
     
  19. yeshuasavedme

    yeshuasavedme Senior Veteran

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    Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

    Rom 5:11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].

    Terrel, you are missing the mark of the doctrine of Christ as taught in Scripture, by a million miles.
     
  20. Terral

    Terral Senior Member

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    Hi Yeshuasavedme:

    You call these nineteen words ‘commentary’ on four verses of Scripture? Jesus Christ is Lord and GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD. Romans 10:9. If one thing in my testimony above is wrong, then why pass up the opportunity to simply “quote me >>” to show everyone my errors using Scripture? 2Tim. 2:15? The problem here is that MANY of you do not know the difference between our Lord Jesus Christ the “Son of God” (John 1:34) and “His God and Father” (Rev. 1:6) who raised Him from the dead. Pasting verses to this thread using the phrase “Lord Jesus Christ” in red does not suddenly transform the “Only Begotten SON OF GOD” (John 3:18) into the God who SENT ME! God is bold:

    Here you have God and His Only Begotten Son mentioned in the same verses, but you do acrobatic tricks to destroy God and replace Him with our Lord Jesus Christ. One of the best examples was given above in this thread for which nobody has a reply, which you will also ignore to your shame:

    The God who sent our Lord Jesus Christ (John 3:16) to save sinners (1Tim. 1:15-16) AND raised our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead is the “one God.” Our Lord Jesus Christ is the “one Mediator” standing “between God and men,” exactly as shown in His triune form (F+S+HS) standing between God and men in diagram 19a ( http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/19a.jpg ) in the Opening Post and in my recent reply to Jerry (Post #18). Where is your reply? The dogma of men that says the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is “God!” is A MYTH!!!! Satan has used the three witnesses of “THE WORD” from Matthew 28:19 to trick people in the most common form of IDOLATRY in the world today. Jesus Christ is at the ‘right hand of God’ (Col. 3:1-3) making intercession for the saints (Rom. 8:34) in His “High Priestly” (Heb. 8:1+2) role as the “one Mediator” between God and men. Jesus Christ tells you that He is the “Son of God” before (John 3:16-18, 10:36) and after (Rev. 2:18) His death, burial and resurrection. But you do not believe Him and His testimony anymore than you believe mine. :0) Jesus Christ was raised above all the heavens (Eph. 4:10) to be seated in the heavenly places “IN Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6). Everyone believing our gospel has been crucified with Christ (Gal. 2:20) to be raised with Christ (Col. 3:1-3) to also be seated with Christ in the same heavenly places that are “IN Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6). That simple truth should tell you that Jesus Christ is the ‘incarnation’ or the microcosm of that very much larger Heavenly “Man” (1Tim. 2:5) Christ Jesus at the right hand of God exactly as shown in my diagrams. Anyone who thinks my diagrams can be equated to Pentecostal Oneness yo-yo’s is only fooling himself. I know the difference between God (The Almighty = Rev. 1:8) and His Only Begotten Son (The Word the Son of God = Rev. 2:18), but many of you haven’t the slightest clue . . .

    My testimony says Jesus Christ is the “Son of God” like John the Baptist (John 1:34), Peter (Matt. 16:16-18), Paul (Rom. 1:4) and Christ Himself (Jn 10:36, Rev. 2:18). It appears you have a very long list of heretics standing against you. :0)

    In Christ Jesus,

    Terral
     
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