The 'Demon Dilemma'.

[Imagican]

According to YOU and those that think like YOU.

I, on the other hand, place my faith in GOD and not what MEN have to offer. And my trust in God is that He was MORE than capable of guiding the men that translated the KJV of the Bible. I don't have NEAR the faith in myself or YOU to try and 're-translate' the Bible.

I have already offered that YOUR line of reasoning leads to a vicious circle of never ending DOUBT. For YOU cannot PROVE any more than I can that the documents used to translate ANY version are accurate. Since there are NO original copies, only copies of copies of copies of copies, at one point, we are stuck with either ignoring the Bible as the inspiration of God, or we accept that God has been capable of preserving His Word.

I KNOW this: I know where the Bible has led ME and what inspiration it has offered ME. I know the changes that have taken place in my life through the understanding offered in the Bible. The KJV. If the same is true for you, then I can offer nothing but sincere appreciation that God is able to work in so MANY different ways. But I can't help but have my doubts. Not doubts in God, but in MEN.

Yes, men wrote the KJV of the Bible. But the men that wrote it were ALL professors and scholars that worked for SEVEN years to accomplish their mission. 47. 47 scholars that spent SEVEN years doing their BEST to translate the Greek manuscripts into English. And that was over FOUR HUNDRED YEARS ago. As far as I'm concerned, that was FOUR HUNDRED YEARS of LESS corruption than present. I wouldn't trust ANY amount of men spending ANY amount of time translating the Bible TODAY half as much as I would trust the 47 that spent seven years over FOUR HUNDRED years ago. For it is MY 'firm belief' that man has FALLEN AWAY quite a bit in the last FOUR hundred years. Fallen away from the TRUTH. Fallen away to the point that most aren't even capable of accepting the truth when it is offered.

So, you can SAY that the KJV has more mistakes in it than any other version, but you and I both KNOW that this is simply NOT true. It is nothing other than a GUISE that many USE to discredit the KJV for the sake of their OWN doctrines and understanding. You cannot PERSONALLY PROVE that there is a SINGLE mistake in the KJV that hasn't been corrected. You offerings are nothing other than GUESSES at BEST and intentional deception at worse. For YOU are NOT more capable of determining the TRUTH than I am. And so far, I would offer that so far as the Bible is concerned, you don't really have any DESIRE for the TRUTH except as it agrees with YOUR theology. The likes of which I have NEVER encountered except through YOUR words. In my 54 years, I have YET to encounter another that has tried to explain things in the manner that YOU have.

While I have YET to meet ANYONE that agrees with EVERYTHING I offer, I have found that EVERYTHING I offer is agreeable to SOME. Yet your interpretation of Satan and demons is only shared by UR in MY experience. Yet you claim that you are NOT UR. So that means that you don't even fit in with THAT crowd.

If I wanted to WASTE even more of my time, I would go and seek out the wording in EACH of the versions you have listed to SHOW that EACH offers information concerning Satan and demons. For there are NO 'translations' that I have EVER encountered that COMPLETELY re-write the Bible. Wording is often different that is capable of leading to SOME different concepts, but the revelation of Satan and demons is UNIVERSAL. It is COMMON with EVERY version of the Bible I have EVER read in, (but for the past twenty odd years, except for RESEARCHING the DIFFERENCES, the ONLY version that I have read and STUDIED is the KJV).

So what you hope to accomplish is a mystery to me. You CANNOT alter what I understand. And so far, those that have responded to your posts has basically offered that they are NOT in agreement with your offerings either. You would need to find someone completely IGNORANT of the Bible or even the concepts of 'good and evil' to have any sort of influence through your words. When I read them all I see are denial and confusion. Your attempts to dismiss Satan and demons is a wasted effort to those that KNOW better. And as far as I'm concerned, are nothing but utter DENIAL of God's Word as offered in the Bible. ALL Bibles that I am aware of. I know of NO translation that offers what YOU offer. And don't believe that there IS one or will be unless you or someone LIKE you decides to produce one of YOUR OWN.

So, if you KNOW of a SINGLE version of the Bible that DOES NOT speak of Satan or demons, let us know and I'll 'check it out', but so far, I've never HEARD of one.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

For those that are curious. This information is offered by a MAN. But I have read TONS of information that is so close that I can't help but find it to be acceptable. If you are curious as to the spurious claims of he man, read the article and do your OWN research to see how accurate it is. But certainly do not allow HIS rote to influence your beliefs. For what HE offers is that HE is more capable of translating the Bible than anyone else EVER HAS BEEN.

So read the article and see what you think. It's an interesting read even if you chose to refute or ignore the information it offers.

Grant R. Jeffrey Ministries

it involves the manuscripts used in the translation of the KJV. I won't go into detail for most people don't even care. But check it out and see what you think.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[ChetSinger]

I haven't read through this entire thread. But has anyone referenced the ancient church belief that demons are the spirits of dead nephilim?

 

[he-man]

I haven't read through this entire thread. But has anyone referenced the ancient church belief that demons are the spirits of dead nephilim?

It is clearly understood by Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
In the New Test. dragοn (δρακω&#957 is only found in the Αροcalypse (Rev. xii, 3, 4, 7, 9, 16, 17, etc.), as applied metaphorically to "the old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan," the description of the “ dragon" being dictated by the symbolical meaning ïf the image rather than by any reference to any actually existing creature. Of similar personification, either if an evil spirit or of the powers of material Nature as distinct from God, we have traces in the extensive prevalence if dragon-worship, and existence of dragon temples of peculiar serpentine form, the use of dragon standards both in the East, especially in Egypt, and in the West, more particularly among the Celtic tribes.
The most remarkable of all perhaps, is found the Greek legend of Apollo as the slayer of the Python, and the supplanter of the serpent-worship by a higher wisdom. The reason, at least of the scriptural symbol, is to be sought not only in the union of gigantic power with craft and malignity, of which the serpent is the natural emblem, but in the record of the serpent's agency in the temptation (Gen, iii). For the ancient allusions of these fabulous or monstrous animals, see Smith's Diet, of Clαaα. Antig. s. v. Dráco.
This serpent-worship, however, is certainly not of Babylonian origin (see Selden, De diis Syr, ii, 17, p. 365 sq.), since the two silver serpents mentiïned by Dodorus Siculus (ii, 9) as being in the temple of Belus (q. v.) were not forms of divinities, but onÍy emblems of the gods there represented ; yet possibly the conception had reference to the Persian symbol of the serpent, which signified Ahriman (Zenclavesta, by Κleuker, i, 6) Ahriman in Zoroastrianism In ancient Persian religion (Zoroastrianism), Ahriman (aka Arimanius or Angra Mainya) stood high in the ranks of the enemies who opposed Ahura Mazda (aka Ohrmazd or Oromasdes).

Ahriman is thought to be the first personification of “the Devil” because Zoroastrians believed in a completely dualistic form of religion. [Prov. 30:16; Hab. 2:5.] Is 13:6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand; as destruction from the Almighty and Sufficient One [Shaddai] will it come! [Gen. 17:1.] Jer 17:18 Let those be put to shame who persecute me, but let me not be put to shame; let them be dismayed, but let me not be dismayed. Bring on them the day of evil, and destroy them with double destruction.
Ezek 38:16 And you shall come up against My people Israel like a cloud to cover the land. In the latter days I will bring you against My land, that the nations may know, understand, and realize Me when My holiness shall be vindicated through you [vindicated and honored in your overwhelming destruction], O Gog, before their eyes.
Hos 13:14 Should I ransom them from the power of Sheol (the place of the dead)? Should I redeem them from death? O death, where are your plagues? O Sheol, where is your destruction? Relenting and compassion are hidden from My eyes. [I Cor. 15:55.] 2 Pet 3:16 Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures. Job 27:11 I will teach you by the hand of God: that which is with the Almighty will I not conceal.

 

[ChetSinger]

he-man, I don't see what that has to do with the early church belief that demons were the spirits of dead nephilim.

 

[he-man]

For those that are curious. This information is offered by a MAN. But I have read TONS of information that is so close that I can't help but find it to be acceptable. If you are curious as to the spurious claims of he man, read the article and do your OWN research to see how accurate it is. MEC

Here is the YLT: Mat 4:24 and his fame went forth to all Syria, and they brought to him all having ailments, pressed with manifold sicknesses and pains, and demoniacs, and lunatics, and paralytics, and he healed them. [YLT]

The actual YLT translation says all who were ill with infirmities, and the sicknesses: Mat 8:16 And evening having come, they brought to him many demoniacs, and he did cast out the spirits with a word, and did heal all who were ill, 17 that it might be fulfilled that was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying, `Himself took our infirmities, and the sicknesses he did bear.'

Funny but your KJV translates G1140 as devil 63 times. So which is it? devil? demon? satan? adversary? daemonic being? a deity?

So what does Job say? I will teach you:
Job 27:11 I will teach you by the hand of God: that which is with the Almighty will I not conceal.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Job 27:22 For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.

Perhaps you should learn what YLT really says and that you should not be teaching of demons:
1Ti 4:1 And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons, [YLT]

So why do you ignore what it says and try to teach the false religions of man, but do not listen to what God says in the Bible?
1Ti 4:1 And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to
seducing spirits and teachings of demons, [YLT]

The difference is that I pay attention and read what it says. God controls the Destroyer mαshchith', Εxοd. Xii, 23; ολοθρευτου 1 Cοr. x, 10), αn exterminator (see Βromel, De ángelï exterminátore, Jeri. 1685; also in the Τhesαur. theol. philοlog. V. Τ. i, 301 sq.).The Hebrews were accustomed by a figure to speak οf any superhuman agency as that of an angel (see Bush, Note οn Exοd. iii, 2); and whenever this had a providential aspect it was attributed to a diνine messenger (2 Kings xix, 35; 2 Sam. xxiν, 15, 16; Psα. lxxνiii, 49; Acts xii, 23).

2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshing place of Araunah the Jebusite.

 

[Norah63]

Thanks for the link from the Jeffrey's ministry.

 

[he-man]

Thanks for the link from the Jeffrey's ministry.

You are welcome and Here it is the YLT: Mat 4:24 and his fame went forth to all Syria, and they brought to him all having ailments, pressed with manifold sicknesses and pains, and demoniacs, and lunatics, and paralytics, and he healed them. [YLT]

The actual YLT translation says all who were ill with infirmities, and the sicknesses: Mat 8:16 And evening having come, they brought to him many demoniacs, and he did cast out the spirits with a word, and did heal all who were ill, 17 that it might be fulfilled that was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying, `Himself took our infirmities, and the sicknesses he did bear.'

Funny but your KJV translates G1140 as devil 63 times. So which is it? devil? demon? satan? adversary? daemonic being? a deity?

So what does Job say? I will teach you:
Job 27:11 I will teach you by the hand of God: that which is with the Almighty will I not conceal.

Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.

Job 27:22 For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand.

Perhaps you should learn what YLT really says and that you should not be teaching of demons:
1Ti 4:1 And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and teachings of demons, [YLT]

So why do you ignore what it says and try to teach the false religions of man, but do not listen to what God says in the Bible?
1Ti 4:1 And the Spirit expressly speaketh, that in latter times shall certain fall away from the faith, giving heed to
seducing spirits and teachings of demons, [YLT]

The difference is that I pay attention and read what it says. God controls the Destroyer mαshchith', Εxοd. Xii, 23; ολοθρευτου 1 Cοr. x, 10), αn exterminator (see Βromel, De ángelï exterminátore, Jeri. 1685; also in the Τhesαur. theol. philοlog. V. Τ. i, 301 sq.).The Hebrews were accustomed by a figure to speak οf any superhuman agency as that of an angel (see Bush, Note οn Exοd. iii, 2); and whenever this had a providential aspect it was attributed to a diνine messenger (2 Kings xix, 35; 2 Sam. xxiν, 15, 16; Psα. lxxνiii, 49; Acts xii, 23).

2Sa 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshing place of Araunah the Jebusite.

 

[Imagican]

'evil spirit', 'unclean spirit', 'devils', 'demons', it is my opinion that they are merely different names for the same 'entities'. And we can add to it, "familiar spirits". And what they are capable of doing according to the Bible is enter into someone and actually end up with control over their physical selves. As in a 'demon' causing a boy to cast himself into a fire or water. And if capable of having such control over one's own body, I'm quite sure that it would be even easier to influence one to pick up a gun or pull a trigger than to cause them to fall into a fire or water.

You quote the YLT. I would ask: what does the word 'demoniac' MEAN? How would YOU define it.

And let me add that this is YOUR quote from the YLT that you indicate is more accurate a translation than the KJV. Having READ in it in the past for study purposes, I can attest to the FACT that the YLT offers the EXACT same passages as the KJV so far as demons are concerned. Only ONE difference, where the KJV uses words like 'evil spirits' or 'unclean spirits' or 'devils', the YLT uses the word DEMONS.

So, he man, tell us what YOUR interpretation of the word 'demoniac' is. How would YOU define the word?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

So, he man, tell us what YOUR interpretation of the word 'demoniac' is. How would YOU define the word? Blessings,
MEC

Tyndale uses the word [FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]fiend the dictionary says:[/FONT][/FONT]
'demoniac' Fiendish extremely cruel or wicked excessively bad unpleasant or difficult
Origin of DEMONIAC Middle English demoniak, from Late Latin daemoniacus, from Greek daimoniakos, from daimon-, daimōn
First Known Use: 14th century

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/demoniac

[FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]Slanderous, hurtful, or corrupting. One who slanders, hurts, and corrupts (casting or sowing throughout)[/FONT]

 

[Imagican]

oh my. and you don't 'get it'? First known USAGE: 14th Century. And you would insist that the version of the Bible that offers a word who's FIRST usage is recorded as the 14th Century as MORE accurate than words used at the TIME the original manuscripts were penned?

OBVIOUSLY, the word 'demoniac' is 'someone infected with demons' or 'someone resembling a demon'. The ROOT of the word BEING: "demon". A "maniac" is someone suffering from 'mania'. An amnesiac is someone suffering from 'amnesia'. So it only stands to REASON that a 'demoniac' is someone suffering from the possession of a demon or demons.

But I do appreciate your response. In all reality, the YLT offers almost the EXACT words concerning demons as the KJV. I already posted half a dozen scriptures taken directly from the YLT that expressly speak of Jesus 'casting out demons'. And what is the most compelling is that the YLT actually USES the word "demon" instead of devils or unclean or evil spirits.

Now, he man, YOU say that demons do not exist. I say that I KNOW for a FACT that they do. So where do you think that places YOU so far as how I view your beliefs? I KNOW that demons exist. You say that they don't. I have offered a TON of scripture along with personal experience that PLAINLY point to the reality of their existence. Yet you still insist that they DO not even exist.

It's kind of like this: The reason that the Catholic Church imprisoned Galileo is for publishing information that PROVED the 'Church' WRONG. And the reason the Catholic Church was so adamant in attempting to eliminate any information that could prove them WRONG was their claim to the congregation of being DIVINELY appointed and DIVINELY inspired. That means that if the congregation were to find out that what they were teaching about the Earth being the center of the Universe was WRONG, what ELSE might they NOT 'truly be' divinely inspired to teach? Proving the 'church' WRONG in ONE aspect could lead to the concept that they could be WRONG about OTHER things as well.

I'm going to offer this: Your continued insistence that demons do not exist in utter contradiction of ALL versions of the Bible puts YOU in this exact position. If you could be SO WRONG about this ONE THING, what reason should anyone have to listen to anything else you have to offer?


Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

1 Corinthians 12:

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


Yet you would have us believe that it is POSSIBLE that these words are UNTRUE. You indicate that because YOU haven't been given the 'ability' to discern EVIL SPIRITS that no one else is capable of having such a 'gift'. In utter DENIAL of the Bible itself. He man, it is NOT UP TO YOU do determine the 'gifts' divided by the Holy Spirit in the Body of Christ. Your denial of scripture is basically a denial of the Holy Spirit itself. If the words penned were INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit, then to deny the words or understanding of the words is to outright DENY the Holy Spirit itself.


Obviously the Holy Spirit has not 'given you' the ability to DISCERN 'spirits'. For it is obvious that the Holy Spirit hasn't even REVEALED to YOU that 'evil spirits' EXIST.


Blessings,


MEC

 

[he-man]

OBVIOUSLY, the word 'demoniac' is 'someone infected with demons' or 'someone resembling a demon'. The ROOT of the word BEING: "demon". A "maniac" is someone suffering from 'mania'. An amnesiac is someone suffering from 'amnesia'. So it only stands to REASON that a 'demoniac' is someone suffering from the possession of a demon or demons.[/quote] Guess again: The existence of demons, while widely accepted, has always presented a theological difficulty. Since all things are ultimately the creation of the one God, the question of why should evil spirits exist has greatly exercised Jewish thought.

Apocalyptic literature offers the first attempt to explain their existence in a monotheistic context by claiming demons are really fallen angels. Rabbinic literature provides the first extensive source for Jewish demonology, though the information is scattered though many sources. In it, several explanations for the existence of demons are offered. They are a creation of the twilight of the sixth day (Pirkei Avot 5.6). Abraham ibn Ezra described demons as a product of the interaction of sunlight with smoke and vapor which then
clings to the body, causing illness (Sefer ha-Atzmim). http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/demons.html

I KNOW that demons exist. You say that they don't. I have offered a TON of scripture along with personal experience that PLAINLY point to the reality of their existence. Yet you still insist that they DO not even exist.

In Judaism an angel is a spiritual entity in the service of God. Angels play a prominent role in Jewish thought throughout the centuries, though the exact meaning of the word has been subject to widely, at times wildly, different interpretations. In Judaism an angel is a spiritual entity in the service of God. Angels play a prominent role in Jewish thought throughout the centuries, though the exact meaning of the word has been subject to widely, at times wildly, different interpretations. Angels

I'm going to offer this: Your continued insistence that demons do not exist in utter contradiction of ALL versions of the Bible puts YOU in this exact position. If you could be SO WRONG about this ONE THING, what reason should anyone have to listen to anything else you have to offer?

Let us see what the Bible actually says: Ge 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

James 1:14 Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lusts...

1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

The mythos of fallen angels eventually becomes a major theological motif in Christianity, but remains largely in the background in Rabbinic Judaism, exerting far less influence over subsequent Jewish cosmology (see Demons and Satan). Angels exist to do a single task (BM 86b; Gen. R. 50:2) and exalted as they may be, angels are subordinate to humanity, or at least the righteous (Gen. R. 21; Sand. 93a; Ned. 32a; Deut. R. 1).

Yet you would have us believe that it is POSSIBLE that these words are UNTRUE. You indicate that because YOU haven't been given the 'ability' to discern EVIL SPIRITS that no one else is capable of having such a 'gift'.

1 Corinthians 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Obviously the Holy Spirit has not 'given you' the ability to DISCERN 'spirits'. For it is obvious that the Holy Spirit hasn't even REVEALED to YOU that 'evil spirits' EXIST. Blessings, MEC

The nominative satan in Hebrew שָׂטָן, referring to an "adversary" or "accuser," as well as the Arabic إبليس (shaitan), derive from a Northwest Semitic root śṭn, meaning "to be hostile," or "to accuse

Also totally absent from the scriptures is any hint that demons are tormenting sinners. This again comes from Dante's Inferno and other pagan concepts, not from the Bible.

 

[Imagican]

once again, you attempt to post quotes from sources that agree with your theology. That's what EVERY 'religion' does. They gravitate towards 'teachers' that supply them with understanding that appeals to what they WANT to believe.

And once again, I have quoted not only the KJV of the Bible, but other versions as well that plainly illustrate the existence of demons and their ability to influence men. Even at times, to the point that the influence can actually be over their PHYSICAL actions. Not MY words, he man, straight out of the Bible.

And when one couples what we have been offered in scripture to the world around us, it becomes MORE than obvious that demons are not only PRESENT, but ABUNDANT and that their influence is more apparent TODAY than it ever was in the past.

And I quoted you scripture that PLAINLY states that 'through the Holy Spirit, some are given the ability to RECOGNIZE 'other' spirits'. When Christ commissioned individuals to 'go and cast out demons', this was NOT a commission given to ALL that would profess Christ as their Savior. This was a GIFT given to specific individuals. Just like HEALING was not a 'gift' offered to ALL. It was given to specific individuals. All are NOT 'apostles', 'teachers', 'healers', 'bishops' or 'deacons'. These are 'gifts' offered THROUGH the Holy Spirit to INDIVIDUALS. Specific individuals and it is not something that the congregation is able to discern, it is discerned THROUGH the Holy Spirit.

As I stated previous, it would appear that your understanding is in direct opposition to the Holy Spirit from my perspective. For what you are unable to understand, you choose denial instead of acceptance. It is as if since YOU were not 'gifted' with the ability to discern 'evil spirits', they must NOT exist. So you have made it a major object of your theology to try and find any and everything you can to try and PROVE your understanding instead of relying upon the WORD to be the foundation of your understanding.

But it's not unusual. It is the manner in which MOST 'churches' were 'born'. Someone encountered something in the Word that was difficult to understand, so instead of simply accepting the Word as offered, they chose to alter it to suit their understanding. So 'doctrine' was formed based on THEIR understanding, (or lack of), instead of on what is actually offered in the Bible.

But you have taken this to a whole different level. You have somehow convinced yourself that God has been unable to preserve His Word. And therefore you have come to believe that you can COMPLETELY 're-translate' the Bible to SUIT YOUR beliefs. Not only altering a limited amount of doctrine, but almost the ENTIRE body of understanding offered in the Bible. You know, like a COMPLETELY different 'RELIGION'.

And he man, there may be others that follow the same thing that you do. So far, I haven't even been able to find what it is that you actually follow. Most 'religions' have a 'name'. I haven't discovered the NAME of what it is that you represent so far as an organized 'religion'.

But I will offer this: you keep make references back to the Jews and what they believe. The Jews simply became followers of the LAW with little consideration to actual UNDERSTANDING. So that they may not have understood what was later more clearly revealed is not a contention concerning MY understanding. Heck, they did not even recognize or accept that Jesus is God's Son and THEIR Messiah. So their ability or inability to recognize Satan or his demons certainly wasn't passed on to ME. I'm NOT a 'Jew'. Just a simple man that has been led into understanding without trying to avoid it.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and so far as Dante's "Inferno", the idea of demons tormenting people that are ALIVE wasn't created by this fictitious writing. The Inferno created the concept of people being tormented in HELL after physical DEATH.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

As I stated previous, it would appear that your understanding is in direct opposition to the Holy Spirit from my perspective.

Guess again: The existence of demons, while widely accepted, has always presented a theological difficulty. Since all things are ultimately the creation of the one God, the question of why should evil spirits exist has greatly exercised Jewish thought.

Again, you err greatly, the only hell you will see is the grave. Sheol shē´ōl (שׁאול, she'ōl): The Name: This word is often translated in the King James Version “grave” (e.g. Gen_37:35; 1Sa_2:6; Job_7:9; Job_14:13; Psa_6:5; Psa_49:14; Isa_14:11, etc.) or “hell” (e.g. Deu_32:22; Psa_9:17; Psa_18:5; Isa_14:9; Amo_9:2, etc.); in 3 places by “pit” (Num_16:30, Num_16:33; Job_17:16). It means really the unseen world, the state or abode of the dead, and is the equivalent of the Greek Háidēs, by which word it is translated in Septuagint.

But you have taken this to a whole different level. You have somehow convinced yourself that God has been unable to preserve His Word.

Speak carefully, my friend!
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Most 'religions' have a 'name'. I haven't discovered the NAME of what it is that you represent so far as an organized 'religion'. Blessings, MEC

That is certainly no wonder, for if you knew Christ, you would know that the name is unrelated to your Satan.
Satan is a name given to the adversary and is symbolical of the Antichrist (Re 19:19 the kings of the earth, and their armies). This is the well-known Hebrew idiom by which a person typically embodying a certain trait or character or destiny is called that thing.
The name therefore represents all evil men and the Antichrist most irrecoverably and completely devoted to the final apoleia. It is figured as an under-world Isa_44:23; Eze_26:20, etc., and is described by other terms, as “the pit” Job_33:24; Psa_28:1; Psa_30:3; Pro_1:12; Isa_38:18, etc., ABADDON (which see) or Destruction Job_26:6; Job_28:22; Pro_15:11, the place of “silence” Psa_94:17; Psa_115:17, “the land of darkness and the shadow of death” Job_10:21 f.
It is, as the antithesis of the living condition, the synonym for everything that is gloomy, inert, insubstantial (the abode of Rephaim, “shades,” Job_26:5;, Pro_2:18; Pro_21:16; Isa_14:9; Isa_26:14. It is a “land of forgetfulness,” where God's “wonders” are unknown Psa_88:10-12. There is no remembrance or praise of God Psa_6:5; Psa_88:12; Psa_115:17, etc..
In its darkness, stillness, powerlessness, lack of knowledge and inactivity, it is a true abode of death; hence, is regarded by the living with shrinking, horror and dismay
Psa_39:13; Isa_38:17-19, though to the weary and troubled it may present the aspect of a welcome rest or sleep Job_3:17-22; Job_14:12 f. The Greek idea of Hades was not dissimilar.

The believer's hope for the future, so far as this had place, was not prolonged existence in Sheol, but deliverance from it and restoration to new life in God's presence Job_14:13-15; Job_19:25-27; Psa_16:10, Psa_16:11; Psa_17:15; Psa_49:15; Psa_73:24-26; It goes too far in thinking of Sheol in Psalms 49 and 73 as “the future abode of the wicked only; heaven as that of the righteous” (op. cit., 74); but different destinies are clearly indicated.

 

[Imagican]

he man. You haven't heard me offer one point concerning my view of 'hell'. Why would you try to indicate something that doesn't exist. You don't know what my view of 'hell' is so you have nothing to even go by in your attempt to claim that I err. As a matter of FACT, I VIEW 'hell' AS 'the grave'. So I guess if I err, we BOTH err. Nice try though. As in most cases when one can't argue any longer they attempt to 'change the subject'.

Let me offer this: there are TONS of subjects on this forum in this very section of it. I ONLY respond to certain subjects and mostly my OWN threads. I do not CLAIM to have a PERFECT understanding of EVERYTHING offered in the Bible. So I LIMIT my comments to the things that I DO know. So as far as your warning to be 'careful' of what I say, I can ASSURE you that I offer NOTHING of which I am not completely confident in.

It is YOU that should tread softly when it comes to denial of God's Word. I have quoted scripture from the KJV and the YLT which YOU say is MORE accurate. Both offer LOADS of information pertaining to demons. YLT actually uses the WORD 'demon' more than any other.

I have often wondered if you even REALIZE what you sound like when you pretend that the information isn't there. It would be like reading a book about Lions and Bears and then one guy comes along and insists that there 'are no bears'. But the source of the information and the theme of the conversation is Lions and Bears. So it makes it look like the person in denial has either NEVER read the book, or for some reason has interjected an inane comment just to get attention. For any other REASON makes no sense whatsoever. And as far as THOSE answers are concerned, I haven't a CLUE, (other than potential INFLUENCE by the very source that this conversation pertains).

And I wouldn't think that you would sink to such a level as to indicate my confusion as to YOUR 'religion' is an indication that "I do NOT know Christ". Not only is that an utter violation of the TOS of the forum, it is just 'silly childish non sense'. I can assure you, your 'version' of 'Christianity' has no bearing on an ability to discern WHO does or WHO doesn't KNOW Christ. For I KNOW this, yet you continually DENY IT: Christ CAST out demons when in the flesh upon this planet according to the Word. So from the perspective of the Bible, (any version I am aware of), it is YOU that is in DENIAL, not me. How does one profess to KNOW Christ but DENY that He cast out demons according to the Word? So before you start slandering others in such a manner, beware, if we are forced down THAT pathway, it would be very easy to CLEARLY show exactly WHO is in denial of the TRUTH. While I feel perfectly content in my judgment of others according to righteousness, (we ARE to judge everything according to the TRUTH), I hesitate to make judgements according to one's knowledge or understanding of Christ or God Himself.

Christ came to teach us ONE thing that matters above all else: To Love God and to love each other. But He also warned us of the 'enemy'. We have been given the TOOLS to resist. But I CAN offer this: if one is unaware or in denial of the 'enemy', resistance is IMPOSSIBLE. For one cannot resist something that they do NOT recognize. That means that for those that would deny the existence of demons, they have NO means of resisting them. That leads to ONE conclusion: ALL that deny the very existence of Satan or demons are most likely under their influence.

It's like this: AIDS destroys the immune system and at one point, the bodies immune system is no longer able to recognize foreign organisms to destroy them. One's biological defenses against foreign organisms is compromised and then destroyed to the point that they end up dying from basic infections.

It is no different with Satan or demons, if one does not even believe they exist, there is no way to defend oneself against their influence. No different then a compromised immune system being unable to discern dangerous bacteria or viruses.

But the strangest thing, he man, is that one could read the Bible and come away with the idea that demons DO NOT EXIST. ANY Bible. I pointed out the story of Job and then you come back with some incoherent rambling that didn't offer any semblance of understanding. Satan, in the book of Job, was NOT 'a man'. The story STARTS with Satan seeking audience with God Himself. The discussion was between God and Satan. And the point was that God was PROUD of Job and had confidence in his love. So much so that God allowed Satan, through NATURAL disasters, to take away from Job 'the things of this world', including at one point, his very HEALTH, in an attempt to influence Job to 'curse God'. To no avail.

Now, WHY do you think that we have this story in the Bible? It is some sort of cosmic JOKE? Those that placed it in the Bible made a mistake? For you can't alter the TRUTH contained IN the story. The story exists and clearly demonstrates that Satan IS an entity. So why was it placed in the Bible? To confuse US? To make us THINK that Satan ISN'T an entity? You see, it would be utter folly to try and twist the story around and darn near impossible. So that leaves only denial or acceptance. How is it that you have chosen DENIAL?

YES, the word satan CAN mean 'adversary'. But when it is capitalized it becomes a PROPER NOUN. It becomes a NAME. Not merely a word with some meaning, it becomes the NAME of an entity. I find it utterly amusing that YOU think that YOU have a better chance of translating the Bible than 47 Scholars did four hundred years ago. 47 PROFESSORS who mostly spoke Greek fluently enough to debate Biblical issues IN GREEK. So the idea that YOU are more capable of translating Greek to English is GREATER than 47 scholars that spent 7 years debating and translating the Bible from Greek to English is to me, INANE. To the point of being utterly RIDICULOUS. For you are forced to refer to the SAME manuscripts they used. So how could it be possible that EVERY version of the Bible speaks of Satan as an entity and demons being entities, yet YOU insist that every MENTION of them as entities is FALSE translation????????? Are you insinuating that YOU are the ONLY person on the PLANET with the ability to properly translate Greek to English? That EVERY version of the Bible is WRONG?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

As a matter of FACT, I VIEW 'hell' AS 'the grave'. So I guess if I err, we BOTH err. Nice try though. As in most cases when one can't argue any longer they attempt to 'change the subject'.

Great, then you are on your way to a greater understanding; no Hell no satan!

YLT actually uses the WORD 'demon' more than any other.

Since all things are ultimately the creation of the one God, the question is why should evil spirits exist?

It would be like reading a book about Lions and Bears and then one guy comes along and insists that there 'are no bears'.

Okay, let us see who the Lion is: Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your opponent the adversary, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Who is the Bible speaking about in the scriptures?
Eze 22:25There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.
Jer 2:30 In vain have I smitten your children; they received no correction: your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion .
Who are those people [not satan] who make widows and take their property?
Mar 12:38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, ... 39And the chief seats ...40 Which devour widows' houses , and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

He cast out demons according to the Word? So before you start slandering others in such a manner, beware, if we are forced down THAT pathway, it would be very easy to CLEARLY show exactly WHO is in denial of the TRUTH. I pointed out the story of Job and then you come back with some incoherent rambling that didn't offer any semblance of understanding. Satan, in the book of Job, was NOT 'a man'. Now, WHY do you think that we have this story in the Bible?

It is not just a story, it is a parable that explains why God allows us to exist and that He, God, controls all things, even chastisement. Are you a woman? Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Who dishes out punishments? Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable, and said,
2 As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; an the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;
Is it God or your demonic being?
Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.
Who does Job says caused his afflictions?
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God hath touched me.
Job 27:7 Let mine enemy be as the wicked, and he that riseth up against me as the unrighteous.

YES, the word satan CAN mean 'adversary'. But when it is capitalized it becomes a

PROPER NOUN

In the Greek there is no upper and lower case. ALL LETTERS ARE CAPS. Here is the Hebrew>H7854 .

Are you insinuating that YOU are the ONLY person on the PLANET with the ability to properly translate Greek to English? That EVERY version of the Bible is WRONG? Blessings, MEC

Gosh, I can only say you better learn some KOINE Greek. How do you recover when you've "Stuck your foot in your mouth"? Best Answer: PAINFULLY or read Ps 119:169 May my cry come before you, Lord; give me understanding according to your word. May my supplication come before you; deliver me according to your promise.

 

[Imagican]

Matthew 4:1
Then Jesus was led up to the wilderness by the Spirit, to be tempted by the Devil,
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew 4:1

Matthew 4:5
Then doth the Devil take him to the [holy] city, and doth set him on the pinnacle of the temple,
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew 4:5

Matthew 4:8
Again doth the Devil take him to a very high mount, and doth shew to him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them,
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew 4:8

Matthew 4:11
Then doth the Devil leave him, and lo, messengers came and were ministering to him.

Satan, the Devil, I DO believe that we can use either to describe the SAME entity. And usually when the word is followed by an 'a', it is a small cased letter 'd' that is used. As indicating one of the LEADER'S minions. Like 'a devil' is a more minor representative of THE Satan or THE Devil, the LEADER. While the original Greek used in translation used NO distinction between capital and small letters, English DOES and when translating the YLT from Greek to English, even those translators used a CAPITAL letter in English when referring to the Devil.

So while it should require ONLY ONE piece of evidence to plainly show that even the YLT capitalizes the NAME of our adversary, I have offered FOUR. Four scripture in which the word Devil is capitalized indicative of a NAME. A PROPER NOUN. So even whoever translated the YLT version chose to use a PROPER noun, a NAME for our adversary: The Devil. And isn't it pretty clear that the event mentioned concerning Satan and Jesus in the dessert is an ACTUAL event and NOT 'symbolic or parable'? It is offered in more than one Gospel and it is offered AS an actual EVENT and NOT offered as parable.

No, he man, I can assure you that if you took a poll, the overwhelming majority would openly admit to the recognition of Satan as an ENTITY, a FALLEN angel. And that Satan has minions, DEMONS, unclean spirits, evil spirits, devils, familiar spirits or whatever you choose to call them, at his disposal. That when Satan was cast from heaven, a third of the angels in heaven were cast out with him. And the indication is that THESE ARE his 'minions' to this day. And will be until what we are offered in Revelation is fulfilled. Until Satan and his minions are separated from mankind and bound for a THOUSAND years. This according to the BIBLE, not necessarily the beliefs of everyone claiming to be 'Christian'. But the words ARE offered in the BIBLE regardless of what one CHOOSES to believe.

And the beliefs of MOST are based as much on their understanding of 'this world' as to what we are offered in the Bible. In other words, the experience of life itself has proven that there is GOOD and there is EVIL. And if we were created in the image of that which is GOOD, then evil MUST come from some OTHER source. Not only Judaism or Christianity, but MOST 'religions' offer GOOD entities, (gods), and EVIL entities, (other gods). So it would SEEM that the principle is present in almost ALL 'religions' that have ever existed that we could make such determinations. Babylonians recognized both GOOD and EVIL entities as 'gods'. So too did Egypt, Persia, Greece, Rome, heck, the American Indians recognized the existence of EVIL SPIRITS. The Eskimos as well.

So from YOUR perspective, they were ALL wrong. Just superstitious non sense. For now, at the eve of our existence, you have figured it all out and EVERYONE ELSE since the dawn of time were WRONG. Hmmmm......talk about the 'Lone Ranger'..........

And I have often wondered: "Can one TRULY believe in God without believing that the Devil EXISTS? For it seems kind of suspect to me that one could BELIEVE in God yet NOT believe in HIS WORD? How would that work. If one of our most prominent means of learning ABOUT God is through His Word, then how could one TRULY KNOW God without being able to understand and accept His Word?

I offered previous: EVERY version of the Bible I have ever read in offers almost the EXACT understanding of both Satan and his demons. While the wording may vary slightly, the PRINCIPLE is there in EVERY version I have ever read in. I did notice that instead of Satan, the YLT uses the word 'adversary'. Not a big deal. For if one reads MORE than that which offers the word adversary, one WILL find that the word Devil is still revealed. And it is capitalized as in a PROPER noun. A NAME for the adversary.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[he-man]

Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up to the wilderness by the Spirit, to be tempted by the Devil,

You amaze me when you ignore WHO was the one who led him into the wilderness to be tested by an adversary? Looks like you are blowing in the wind to satisfy your own desire when the Bible says nothing about a :Fallen Angel"
Ecclesiastes 6:9 Better is the sight of the eyes than the wandering of desire. This also is vanity and grasping for the wind.
Mark says the reason people leave the truth is when they are troubled because of the word, not because of any super natural being.
Mk 4:16 Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
James says the same thing James 1:14 Every man us tempted when he id drawn away of his OWN lusts...

While the original Greek used in translation used NO distinction between capital and small letters, English DOES and when translating the YLT from Greek to English, even those translators used a CAPITAL letter in English when referring to the Devil.

How does that make your or their assumptions any different or correct? We are using the Bible for an explanation not what translators said.. Why did those translators ignore the MAN in which YLT called the enemy if it did not refer to the scribes and leaders in the church except for YLT ?
Mat 13:28 And he saith to them, A MAN, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, that having gone away we may gather it up?

And isn't it pretty clear that the event mentioned concerning Satan and Jesus in the dessert is an ACTUAL event and NOT 'symbolic or parable'? It is offered in more than one Gospel and it is offered AS an actual EVENT and NOT offered as parable.

???? Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

No, he man, I can assure you that if you took a poll, the overwhelming majority would openly admit to the recognition of Satan as an ENTITY, a FALLEN angel.

What verse do you think that qualifies you to use that assumption? Do you know what future tense means? Rev 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," because John says: Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. FUTURE TENSE not PAST TENSE

And the beliefs of MOST are based as much on their understanding of 'this world' as to what we are offered in the Bible. And if we were created in the image of that which is GOOD, then evil MUST come from some OTHER source. Not only Judaism or Christianity, but MOST 'religions' offer GOOD entities, (gods), and EVIL entities, (other gods). So it would SEEM that the principle is present in almost ALL 'religions' that have ever existed that we could make such determinations. Babylonians recognized both GOOD and EVIL entities as 'gods'.

Yes, and that would be a polythestic belief, and would violate the command "That there is One God and Him only shall you recognize."
You have missed the whole point of the Bible when it says you are on the wrong side of good if you support the theory that more than just a few will believe.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

And I have often wondered: "Can one TRULY believe in God without believing that the Devil EXISTS? For it seems kind of suspect to me that one could BELIEVE in God yet NOT believe in HIS WORD? How would that work. If one of our most prominent means of learning ABOUT God is through His Word, then how could one TRULY KNOW God without being able to understand and accept His Word?

I did notice that instead of Satan, the YLT uses the word 'adversary'. And it is capitalized as in a PROPER noun. A NAME for the adversary.

???? The ancient Greeks did not have any equivalent to our modern device of punctuation. Sentence punctuation was invented several centuries after the time of Christ. The oldest copies of both the Greek New Testament and the Hebrew Old Testament are written with no punctuation.
In addition, the ancient Greeks used no spaces between words or paragraphs. Texts were a continuous string of letters, with an occasional blank line inserted to mark the end of a major section, though even this was not always done.
They also had no equivalent to our lower case letters. Texts were written in all capitals.
When there is more than one possible way of dividing the words in a sentence or paragraph, or when there is more than one possible set of punctuation, we must look for clues as to what the author intended in order to correctly determine which is the correct division and what punctuation the author would have used if it had been available.
Greek Language and Linguistics: Home Page
　
　

 

[Imagican]

You amaze me when you ignore WHO was the one who led him into the wilderness to be tested by an adversary? Looks like you are blowing in the wind to satisfy your own desire when the Bible says nothing about a :Fallen Angel"

How does my being able to read, understand and accept what the Bible SAYS 'amaze you'? Better yet, I ask this: Does the Bible SAY that Jesus was tempted three times by the Devil? And what difference does it make HOW he was led to the dessert to be tempted, the question is: Was Christ tempted in the dessert THREE TIMES by the Devil?

Ecclesiastes 6:9 Better is the sight of the eyes than the wandering of desire. This also is vanity and grasping for the wind.
Mark says the reason people leave the truth is when they are troubled because of the word, not because of any super natural being.
Mk 4:16 Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

You have attempted to use this method to produce an answer that doesn't exist in truth. You pick and choose individual LINES of the Bible and try to indicate that these INDIVIDUAL lines are worthy of a COMPLETE understanding. When in fact, they often only offer a small PIECE of understanding.

James says the same thing James 1:14 Every man us tempted when he id drawn away of his OWN lusts... How does that make your or their assumptions any different or correct? We are using the Bible for an explanation not what translators said.. Why did those translators ignore the MAN in which YLT called the enemy if it did not refer to the scribes and leaders in the church except for YLT ?
Mat 13:28 And he saith to them, A MAN, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, that having gone away we may gather it up? ???? Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. What verse do you think that qualifies you to use that assumption? Do you know what future tense means? Rev 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," because John says: Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. FUTURE TENSE not PAST TENSE Yes, and that would be a polythestic belief, and would violate the command "That there is One God and Him only shall you recognize."
You have missed the whole point of the Bible when it says you are on the wrong side of good if you support the theory that more than just a few will believe.

Here is an EASY way to end this SILLINESS: Ok, Revelation is a vision about the FUTURE. And in that future, an entity called, Satan, the Devil, serpent of OLD, great dragon is defeated. That's a FUTURE event. Now, this entity known as the Devil or Satan or OLD SERPENT, it is to be defeated at a future time, WHEN did it BEGIN. The event in Revelation is about it's DESTRUCTION, so when did it BEGIN? And between it's BEGINNING and the event offered in Revelation, where was IT and what was IT doing?

It's no different than this: I tell a story about the destruction of a temple. That has NO bearing on it being in existence for however much time it existed. Mentioning a future event in which it is destroyed has NO bearing on when it was BUILT.

So in the same respect, speaking a future event in which Satan is defeated offers NO indication that Satan hasn't existed BEFORE Christ. The event is about the destruction of an OLD enemy, not a NEW one.

Mat 22:14For many are called, but fewarechosen.
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wideisthe gate, and broadisthe way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because straitisthe gate, and narrowisthe way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. ????

And it would often seem, from my perspective, you aren't even LOOKING. It would SEEM that you are looking to alter EVERYTHING that doesn't FIT what it is that YOU want to believe. For the Bible is perfectly CLEAR in it's usage of the word Satan.

But from YOUR perspective, EVERYone for a couple of thousand years now has been DUPED into false understanding because YOU weren't there to translate the Bible for them. NO OTHER MEN in the past two thousand years have been capable of translating the Bible from Greek to English EXCEPT YOU. Well, he man, I guess WE are lucky that we happen to run into you so that you can FINALLY deliver the TRUTH that no other man has been able to for TWO thousand years.

The ancient Greeks did not have any equivalent to our modern device of punctuation. Sentence punctuation was invented several centuries after the time of Christ. The oldest copies of both the Greek New Testament and the Hebrew Old Testament are written with no punctuation.
In addition, the ancient Greeks used no spaces between words or paragraphs. Texts were a continuous string of letters, with an occasional blank line inserted to mark the end of a major section, though even this was not always done.
They also had no equivalent to our lower case letters. Texts were written in all capitals.
When there is more than one possible way of dividing the words in a sentence or paragraph, or when there is more than one possible set of punctuation, we must look for clues as to what the author intended in order to correctly determine which is the correct division and what punctuation the author would have used if it had been available.
Greek Language and Linguistics: Home Page

You offer this like it's some sort of secret. Now, let me offer you one: You offer such things like YOU somehow DISCOVERED it. It was perfectly well UNDERSTOOD by those that translated the Bible that there were NO capital letters in Greek. No small letters in Greek. No punctuation in Greek. Yet you have somehow deluded yourself into believing that 47 SCHOLARS, many men who TAUGHT Greek that spent SEVEN YEARS translating the Bible from Greek to English. Now YOU tell us: What makes YOU think that YOU, ONE PERSON, are more capable of determining what letters to capitalize and where to begin and end sentences? Why is YOUR interpretation any better than theirs?
　
　

So the simple question is: Does the Bible speak of an entity called Satan? Are the Devil, Satan, that Old Serpent, the Great Dragon, are ALL these just different names for the same entity? The question I'm asking is NOT: did the translators err in the USE of these terms. The question is: do these terms exist in the Bible and do they offer that the entity known as Satan EXISTS and that there are 'evil spirits' that do his bidding?

I have, on numerous occasion, offered quotes from the Bible that PLAINLY show that the answer to these questions is YES. Satan is an entity. And YES, there ARE indeed 'evil spirits', DEMONS that do the bidding of their master: Satan.

So really this conversation has continually led back to ONE presumption: it is YOUR perspective that these ideas and words SHOULD NOT be in the Bible if correctly translated. And I find that concept to be utterly LUDICROUS. That God has been unable to preserve His Word: the truth, for two thousand years until YOU were born and learned how to translate Greek into English. And I personally believe that any and everyone following this discussion would agree.

Blessings,

MEC