The Confederate Flag

Paradoxum

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Is flying the Confederate flag significantly different from flying the Nazi flag?

I'd say it's pretty much the same. The Confederate flag represents racism and slavery, like the Nazi flag represents racism and genocide.
 

Paradoxum

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Well Nazism and the Confederacy are different, so I would say flying each flag is different and means something different to those flying it.

They are somewhat different, but I think they are both similar in ways which are relevant to whether it's wrong to fly the flag.

If you think it's wrong to fly a flag that stands for genocide, you should probably also think it's wrong to fly a flag that stands for slavery.

Of course genocide is worse than slavery, but slavery still isn't a minor evil.

If we're going to group things together though why stop there, why not throw in Che Geuvara t-shirts and Soviet Union flags.

I'd say that the Nazi and Confederate flags more strongly symbolism genocide and slavery (respectively). But perhaps I'm incorrect, and the Soviet flag should be strongly associated with the wrongs done by the Soviet Union.

I suppose it depends on how strongly connected the nations principles were to the wrongs done. Ie: Were the acts done on principle, or something like convenience.

(I don't know much about Che Geuvara).
 
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Moral Orel

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I've seen valid arguments for the fact that the confederate flag symbolizes racism, but aside from that, doesn't it mean treason? I mean, it was the flag that the south flew to fight against the federal government, and isn't that treason?

Paradoxum, you're from the UK right? Does anyone there (that is a UK born and raised citizen) fly the American flag? I would kind of see that as the same thing. Well if anyone actually did that, you all seem a little more reasonable than us in a lot of ways.
 
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outsidethecamp

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Did you know:

Neither the Federal Government nor the Confederate governments went to war over the issue of slavery?

One third of the states where slavery was legal during the war fought for the North?

Tens of thousands of black Americans fought on both the Federal and Confederate sides?

Homes, neighbors and entire towns were purposely destroyed as part of the "Total War" military strategy?

Perhaps the greatest enmity between the North and the South resulted from what happened after the war?

That the Ku Klux Klan of 1860's and 1870's was not the same as the Klan of 1920? It was disbanded by Nathan Bedford Forrest when the Klan was co-opted by others committing lawless acts.

"Religion in the South made its most useful contribution to Southern culture only after the war ended, when it emerged as a convincing symbol of the value of spiritual victory in the midst of earthly defeat." Gardiner A. Shattuck, A Shield and a Hiding Place
 
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Armoured

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Is flying the Confederate flag significantly different from flying the Nazi flag?

I'd say it's pretty much the same. The Confederate flag represents racism and slavery, like the Nazi flag represents racism and genocide.
I say what matters more is the intent of the flyer.

Of course, the flyer needs to be aware of both symbol's baggage, and be prepared to explain themselves if they fly them.
 
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outsidethecamp

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Do you know what the Confederate flag meant before it was co-opted by the 1920's Ku Klux Klan? Do you know what it still means to Soutpeople today (not the Ku Klux Klan)?

Did you know the original Ku Klux Klan was a peaceful, men's fraternal organization (1860-1870) as a way to cheer up the families of the defeated South? It was disbanded when unscrupulous men donned the Klan robes and committed lawless acts. But this did not stop these lawless individuals.

What is interesting is during the birth of the KKK the confederate flag was NOT used as a symbol. Even today that do not accept the flag as their main symbol. A blood dripped cross is. Is a cross racist? They also use the bible. Is the bible racist? Or are these sick misinterpretations?

A few more factoids.
The Confederate Flag was never the official flag of the confederacy. It actually became more prominent after the war ended.

The flag actually became seen as racist during the civil rights movement. Not the civil war.

The war was fought on a false premise and, given time, slavery would have disappeared from the South in another generation. It was already waning, because of industrialization. Had the North not been secretly fearful of the South's innovation, trade inroads, and business acumen that was outstripping the performance of the northern industrialists, the war would have never happened.
 
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Armoured

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Do you know what the Confederate flag meant before it was co-opted by the 1920's Ku Klux Klan? Do you know what it still means to Soutpeople today (not the Ku Klux Klan)?

Did you know the original Ku Klux Klan was a peaceful, men's fraternal organization (1860-1870) as a way to cheer up the families of the defeated South? It was disbanded when unscrupulous men donned the Klan robes and committed lawless acts. But this did not stop these lawless individuals.

What is interesting is during the birth of the KKK the confederate flag was NOT used as a symbol. Even today that do not accept the flag as their main symbol. A blood dripped cross is. Is a cross racist? They also use the bible. Is the bible racist? Or are these sick misinterpretations?

A few more factoids.
The Confederate Flag was never the official flag of the confederacy. It actually became more prominent after the war ended.

The flag actually became seen as racist during the civil rights movement. Not the civil war.

The war was fought on a false premise and, given time, slavery would have disappeared from the South in another generation. It was already waning, because of industrialization. Had the North not been secretly fearful of the South's innovation, trade inroads, and business acumen that was outstripping the performance of the northern industrialists, the war would have never happened.
Um, great. What's your point? What does it have to do with my comment?
 
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Armoured

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Same to me.

Some symbols with negative history cannot be reclaimed.
KKM, I like your posts usually, but with the best will in the world, you're being a little overly "PC" here. Symbols only have the meaning we bring to them.
 
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SuperCloud

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Well Nazism and the Confederacy are different, so I would say flying each flag is different and means something different to those flying it.

If we're going to group things together though why stop there, why not throw in Che Geuvara t-shirts and Soviet Union flags.

I know a lot of American Catholics are not aware of this. But the Orange Loyalists (Protestants) of Northern Ireland fly the Confederate flag too. Contrary to what many American Catholics may have been taught the former warring in Northern Ireland was not merely "religious." Mainly it was ethnocentric--like the battles in Israel between Jews and Palestinians. As it happens in both cases the ethnic groups were usually very strongly tied to a particular religion.

If I remember correctly... the KKK (white sheets/hoods representing the ghosts of the Confederate soldiers) use a lot of Celtic symbols. But these are not derived from Irish Catholicism but from the Scots-Irishmen. Who are the latter? Those of Scottish ancestry who live in (or came from and moved to say... Toronto, Canada or the Southern, USA) Northern Ireland. But the history of Northern Ireland is also tied into people of English ancestry. Both the English and Scots became the colonial ruling class in Northern Ireland. The actual ethnic Irish were more or less like our Amerindians. And so, that ruling class pretty much treated the Irish the way white Americans treated Amerindians and blacks.

The Catholic Irish even had there version of a Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. long before either one of those showed up on the scene. Eventually the left-wing IRA was created--to which in the USA the Black Panther Party was probably the most akin to them.

The white prison gang the Aryan Brotherhood uses Celtic symbols too.

So, Catholics like to talk about how Latin American Catholics betrayed Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox betrayed Orthodoxy by embracing socialist and communist ideologies. But Catholics rarely if ever speak about how Catholics betray Catholicism by embracing the social (and at times secretive) constructs and beliefs of the joint KKK and Masonic Lodges--which have run much of the US political systems from Alabama to Indiana to DC.

Back in the 1920s and 1930s the Masonic Lodges viewed the KKK as their fighting arm. I'm not sure what if any connection they have today. But the Masonic Lodge, membership in the Lodges, still play a part in the life of a lot of elected officials in the USA.









http://ulsterconnections.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/red-hand-defenders-march-with.html

Sunday, May 8, 2011
Red Hand Defenders march with Confederate flag in Newtownstewart

Proud sons of Ulster took to the streets of Newtownstewart in County Tyrone on 6 May, 2011 to show the colours and their loyalty to their country. For this son of Dixie it was especially stirring to see that they marched with the Confederate and Bonnie Blue flags, symbolising the many connections and close relationship between the Ulster-Scots and the people of Dixie. Check out the video below!
 
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KitKatMatt

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How am I being PC?

The symbol means racism to me. Every time I think of people I know who display this flag, I can't find one who isn't racist.

I think of the people I know who "don't see why people would be offended over the Confederate flag", and they're also racist.

They're not Neo-Nazi's or KKK members, but they are racist. They view anyone who is not white as sub-human and feral. They might be nice to someone for a short face-to-face meeting, but it's their attitudes when they think they're not being heard betray them. Most of them don't even realize it, which is the sad part to me.

This symbol has had meaning brought to it.
 
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outsidethecamp

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After the War between States The South has been attacked over and over again. First it was carpetbaggers and other reconstruction characters, unfortunately with a lot of help from all sorts of scalawags...I'm not saying that the South itself is innocent, our history has a lot of flaws and we've gotten our shameful parts as well...but, the attacks on symbols are troublesome, by doing this the Southern features are slowly wiped out and the story about the war is being the story told from the north. I reckon putting the blame on Southern symbols is easier than actually dealing with the problems this country has been facing for decades and decades...just sayin...
 
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outsidethecamp

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Here are some facts about the civil war, much was not taught in history class but more and more are becoming aware today. much of this I have read but most I learned from 2nd hand accounts, old men that were eye witnesses to what really happened in those days.


1) - slavery was not an issue, it was part of it but not why the war was fought. the majority of southerners did not even own slaves. Most of them were small farmers who worked their farms with their families. do you really think the average farmer or poor working man is going to go to war, risk his life, make his wife a widow and kids fatherless just so a rich plantation owner can keep his right to have slaves?

2) the south was being bled dry by economic restrictions from the union., and they felt like they were losing their rights and freedoms as the federal government was oppressing their state rights. this was the big deal that pushed the south over the edge.

3) this is just a personal observation. i think there was a predetermined looting of the south. you can find this tactic over and over in history. one greedy country wants to plunder another, they push that country till they push back, then they have precedence to declare war. read the history of the Roman empire. it was no coincidence that every single thing of economic value in the south was taken over by tycoons from the north.

There is a reason why so many refer to it as The War of Northern Aggression
 
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Armoured

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How am I being PC?

The symbol means racism to me. Every time I think of people I know who display this flag, I can't find one who isn't racist.

I think of the people I know who "don't see why people would be offended over the Confederate flag", and they're also racist.

They're not Neo-Nazi's or KKK members, but they are racist. They view anyone who is not white as sub-human and feral. They might be nice to someone for a short face-to-face meeting, but it's their attitudes when they think they're not being heard betray them. Most of them don't even realize it, which is the sad part to me.

This symbol has had meaning brought to it.
Racists do use it, yes. And if they do, then yes, it's a symbol of racism. But if someone likes it because they associate it with happy memories of watching the Dukes of Hazzard with their dad at 3yo. not so much.
 
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LOVEthroughINTELLECT

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If you think it's wrong to fly a flag that stands for genocide, you should probably also think it's wrong to fly a flag that stands for slavery.

Of course genocide is worse than slavery, but slavery still isn't a minor evil...




The flag of the United States of America symbolizes a country that committed the genocide of Native Americans, but nobody is saying that it is wrong to fly the U.S. flag.
 
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KitKatMatt

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Racists do use it, yes. And if they do, then yes, it's a symbol of racism. But if someone likes it because they associate it with happy memories of watching the Dukes of Hazzard with their dad at 3yo. not so much.

If a Dukes of Hazzard fan flies the flag in their front yard (is that common anywhere else? It is here. People get flagpoles solely for this purpose) without knowing of the historical connotations of publicly flying that flag, then they're pretty clueless.
 
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The flag of the United States of America symbolizes a country that committed the genocide of Native Americans, but nobody is saying that it is wrong to fly the U.S. flag.
Being on the winning side hath its privileges.
 
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