The Catholic Teaching on Hell

[LivingWordUnity]

Hi,
I have struggled with this, and you don't have to as it is a personal revelation approved by the church, therefore not binding upon the entire church.
Jesus is infinitely infinitelely infinitely and then some tender and, mild. Plus I take God as being good, as a fact. The Roman Catholic Church tells me that, and I totally believe that for some reason.
With those two items my life with God proceeds, and I have always had trouble, heart and head wise, understanding the judgement upon Satan.
How can that be good, I asked myself. I did come up with a way it could be good. Maybe, I thought Satan is evil. Therefore since God has said in The Bible that an evil person does not sleep well unless he has hurt someone, I thought in being tortured forever, the good was, what Satan wanted most, he got, he got to see someone injured daily. He was able to see himself injured daily. And, that is as far as I could get, understanding how Satan's sentence was good.
I am thinking out loud here.
Another way it could be good, for others is to keep what hurts away. However, even if I am wrong, this I could not see from two points of view. One is why should God have to maintain security on a bad actor, for eternity? He did make him, why not un-make him.? The other point is something I don't want to say. It is, what if he ever gets out again? What then? Sure it is a single angel who removes Satan from the pit in Revelations, and casts him into the lake of fire, so really taking hold of him again, is no great power struggle, but why bother? Why?
Should God be tasked with taking care of my bad decisions or Satan's bad decisions for eternity? In my case thats easy for me to answer. The answer is no, destroy both my body and soul in Hell.
I can't speak for Satan, but that would be my long term choice with God. Do away with me, rather than putting up with my bad thoughts and actions for eternity.
I am tired. I'll end here.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

I recognize that this is something that you genuinely struggle to understand. And it's not an easy thing for us to grasp. But if we don't understand it we must still trust that our Lord knows that Hell is necessary and is part of His mercy.

As for Satan, he is an angel. And the nature of angels is not the same as ours. They have an intellect that is far superior to ours so that when they are presented with a choice they can see perfectly the choice they are given. Unlike how humans, limited by our physical intellect and emotions, often don't see the full ramifications of our decisions, once angels make their choice it is final. The positive side of this is that it gives us assurance that the good angels will never change their mind.

I personally came to believe in Hell by way of a vision granted to me by God in a dream before I knew Jesus. And that's actually what prompted my conversion to Christianity.

 

[katerinah1947]

Saint Faustina saw souls suffering in Hell
Saint Teresa of Avilla saw souls suffering in Hell
Saint John Bosco saw souls suffering in Hell
and Sister Lucy, one of the three children who saw the Blessed Mother in Fatima saw souls suffering in Hell
along with dozen of other Saints and Blesseds
but even if God did not give these mystics visions, can see that many people go to hell from the accounts in the Scriptures

what vanity is this that puts our own musings above those of the wise and learned Saints?
St. Teresa is a Doctor of the Church
St. Faustina is called the "Apostle of Divine Mercy" and yet you think you understand mercy better then her?

Hi,
I hope you aren't thinking that by me or someone else not saying yes to this resoundingly yet, that any of us disagree with these Saints and you that people are actually in Hell now? I agree they are. Resoundingly I agree. Yes.
My issues are separate, from those facts. My thoughts are separate from thise thoughts, without negating their validity. O please do not think, I say Jesus, nor these saints, are saying Hell does not exist. I know of no such thing.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[ebia]

The thread is "what is the church's teaching"

The church's teaching is very broad, allowing for a vast range of views, from "its a real possibility of exclusion from God but maybe nobody actually suffers it", through a specific graphic description of particular tortures that await vast numbers.

You can argue for something very specific being the correct view within that, but that's quite different to the question in the thread title.

 

[katerinah1947]

I recognize that this is something that you genuinely struggle to understand. And it's not an easy thing for us to grasp. But if we don't understand it we must still trust that our Lord knows that Hell is necessary and is part of His mercy.

As for Satan, he is an angel. And the nature of angels is not the same as ours. They have an intellect that is far superior to ours so that when they are presented with a choice they can see perfectly the choice they are given. Unlike how humans, limited by our physical intellect and emotions, often don't see the full ramifications of our decisions, once angels make their choice it is final. The positive side of this is that it gives us assurance that the good angels will never change their mind.

I personally came to believe in Hell by way of a vision granted to me by God in a dream before I knew Jesus. And that's actually what spurred my conversion to Christianity.

Hi,
Oh! Dear, and I mean that kindly, I understand you. And I have been trying not to share something. I still think that I do not have to. "One day, this happened. I will let you in at the point I was talking." Why? ~because I love you~
Really, that conversation with God The Father, I thought was wrong on my part. I thought I had asked too much. "I was humbled beyond my words. I did ask for much." And, I have been asking for this for years and years by then. Here, before me, I am being granted my wish.
It will hurt much. It is almost beyond belief how much thus will hurt, the person involved. If my request was not right, it would never be granted. It is not revenge, I asked for, it is for a goodness to God.
It is of that wish, granted and not proven yet by the church, of which I speak. Let me say one more thing, before I end this respnse. If this item were that important to the entire church, rather than just a present from me to God and therefore personal, I would submit this to the church, just like I did the last set of events like this.
In that last set of events, the church, your church and mine, commanded me to believe all that I brought to them, FOREVER, as he said to me when done: "I do this for a living, this is The Holy Spirit", thus everything then I had brought to them and asked, was said to be true by the actions of The Holy Spirit.
This other item, on the impossibility of Satan, or any later after for ever and ever, being able to change their minds and hearts, has not, nor do I yet plan on submitting this to the church yet.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Rhamiel]

The thread is "what is the church's teaching"

The church's teaching is very broad, allowing for a vast range of views, from "its a real possibility of exclusion from God but maybe nobody actually suffers it", through a specific graphic description of particular tortures that await vast numbers.

You can argue for something very specific being the correct view within that, but that's quite different to the question in the thread title.

this is a Catholic Subform
so when people ask about the Churches teaching, they mean the Catholic Church
I am not sure why you think that "maybe no one goes to hell" is an acceptable teaching in the Catholic Church?

what council said that this is a teaching of the Church?
what Doctor of the Church advanced this theology?
there have been some claims that Pope John Paul II supported this belief, but these claims seem unfounded
you claimed that what Pope Benedict XVI said about hell would be "shocking" but I am not even sure what to look for to be shocked about, maybe if you said a teaching or a document I could be properly scandalized

 

[MikeK]

A lot of Saints said they saw a lot of things - things that often directly contradicted what others "saw". Observing as much is not saying that you know better.

 

[katerinah1947]

The thread is "what is the church's teaching"

The church's teaching is very broad, allowing for a vast range of views, from "its a real possibility of exclusion from God but maybe nobody actually suffers it", through a specific graphic description of particular tortures that await vast numbers.

You can argue for something very specific being the correct view within that, but that's quite different to the question in the thread title.

Hi,
Oops! I know what the church teaches. I did not know that I was not supposed to go off topic.
I didn't know, or I forgot the original topic.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Rhamiel]

A lot of Saints said they saw a lot of things - things that often directly contradicted what others "saw". Observing as much is not saying that you know better.

hmm, what contradictions do you speak of?

hmmm well visions in general seem to be filled with symbolism
look at Daniel and the Revelation of St. John, so what could be seen as a contradiction could just be the use of different metaphors and symbolism, not a disagreement in principle, but rather just God speaking to the individual in ways they will better understand

very very symbolic

so we can argue if a vision was a true mystical experience or if it was contrived by the imagination of the individual
and even if the vision was true, we can argue about what the symbolism means or how literal we should view it.

for example, I will use the visions of the children in Fatima
because there was a great number of miracles and healings and good works that speak to the authenticity of what happened at Fatima
the children said they saw souls burning in hell, like embers

now lets assume we accept the account of what happened at Fatima as true visions from God

we could say that the fire is symbolic of the pain of being separated from God
or we could say that the fire is some sort of spiritual substance that was created to be a judgment upon sinners
or we could take a more Eastern Orthodox view and say that the suffering of those in Hell is the judgment of being in the presence of God who they have offended

 

[ebia]

this is a Catholic Subform
so when people ask about the Churches teaching, they mean the Catholic Church
I am not sure why you think that "maybe no one goes to hell" is an acceptable teaching in the Catholic Church?

It's a position held by Balthazar under two popes who were happy for him holding and promoting that view. Likewise for some prominent cardinals. Those two pope's have clearly accepted it as a legitimate view.

 

[Rhamiel]

can you show where Popes have said this view is acceptable and has any merit?

Balthazar was a priest right?
not a Bishop, not a Cardinal (though there was talk of elevating him to being a Cardinal)
one theologian
and what do theologians do?
they ask questions, they get debates going, they delve deeper
so the fact that some of these questions were of an innovative and provocative nature does not bother me at all, that is the job of theologians
the job of Bishops is to teach the truth of the faith

Protestantism, with its rejection of the Magisterium, has really become dominated by Academics
we can see this in the Presbyterian denomination and some of the Lutheran synods

there are the firm teachings of the Church, that do not change from year to year
and then there is theological conjecture

Balthazar was a very learned theologian, I can see why the Popes would respect him in spite of his eccentricities
that would be in spite of the eccentricities, not because of them

 

[MikeK]

You could always go with St Leonard of Port Maurice and conclude that the vast, vast, VAST majority of practicing Catholics are damned to eternal torture. I bet he was a popular at funerals.

 

[Rhamiel]

You could always go with St Leonard of Port Maurice and conclude that the vast, vast, VAST majority of practicing Catholics are damned to eternal torture. I bet he was a popular at funerals.

yeah, that has been a historic view

 

[ebia]

can you show where Popes have said this view is acceptable and has any merit?

Balthazar was a priest right?
not a Bishop, not a Cardinal (though there was talk of elevating him to being a Cardinal)
one theologian
and what do theologians do?
they ask questions, they get debates going, they delve deeper
so the fact that some of these questions were of an innovative and provocative nature does not bother me at all, that is the job of theologians
the job of Bishops is to teach the truth of the faith

And if their views are outside what is acceptable, are public, become famous, are taken up by cardinals, etc they get addressed. Contrast balthazar with Kung.

Balthazar wasn't just any theologian, he was one of the most prominent of his time, widely praised by the popes in question.

Formal documents tend to define what is outside or typical expressions of what is inside. They rarely tell you every thought that is acceptable explicitly - that would require an infinite volume of documents.

If you want to understand how the view is compatible with the church I suggest reading the book, since that is exactly what it is written to address.

 

[katerinah1947]

hmm, what contradictions do you speak of?

hmmm well visions in general seem to be filled with symbolism
look at Daniel and the Revelation of St. John, so what could be seen as a contradiction could just be the use of different metaphors and symbolism, not a disagreement in principle, but rather just God speaking to the individual in ways they will better understand

very very symbolic

so we can argue if a vision was a true mystical experience or if it was contrived by the imagination of the individual
and even if the vision was true, we can argue about what the symbolism means or how literal we should view it.

for example, I will use the visions of the children in Fatima
because there was a great number of miracles and healings and good works that speak to the authenticity of what happened at Fatima
the children said they saw souls burning in hell, like embers

now lets assume we accept the account of what happened at Fatima as true visions from God

we could say that the fire is symbolic of the pain of being separated from God
or we could say that the fire is some sort of spiritual substance that was created to be a judgment upon sinners
or we could take a more Eastern Orthodox view and say that the suffering of those in Hell is the judgment of being in the presence of God who they have offended

Hi,
On the subject of visions, in the daytime. When these first started happening to me, I noticed that only I understood what they meant. Soon when I heard of other peoples visions from God, if I could see what they saw when they described those visions to me, then I knew they were from God and no other source. Vice versa, they could see what I saw, if I described one of my visions to them, and they were of God in visions also.
Soon I learned to ask, what their visions meant to them, as the rest of us, even I got them wrong. Visions are that focused to a single person, that only that person, usually understands the vision.
FYI. You are trying to do, what no one can do, except the person given the vision, or the person given the interpretation, for another person.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[bill5]

well that verse talks about the False Prophet the Beast(also called the Anti-Christ in other places in the Bible) in Revelation
so at least two humans are going to hell

then we have Jesus warning people that "many are called but few are chosen"
and the general tone of the Gospels show that many people will reject Christ

Good points. I don't pretend to have the answers. Just throwing the possibility out there...

God lets us choose between life with Him or hell
it would be like me saying you can come with me and live in my house
or you can jump into a pit filled with spikes
I am not some monster if you choose the spike pit

Sorry but this is not a valid analogy. You aren't God. More generally, since we've never experienced Heaven OR Hell, we don't really know or have a full appreciation for what either would be like (for all eternity no less). I don't think offering such an extreme choice and basically just going "well one's real good and one's real bad so you better be good or else" is exactly a fair set up. I just can't help but to wonder if God would really work like that.

Let me put it this way: some years back I saw an interview with a woman who's only son was killed by some thug. He was caught, there was no question, and he was unrepentant. She forgave him and had no interest in his punishment. While probably rare to say the least, I doubt she's the only one who's ever been like this. If a mere human being can show such forgiveness for the worst of sins, including a lack of repentance for them, would God do any less? Seems rather dicey to me.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Good points. I don't pretend to have the answers. Just throwing the possibility out there...



Sorry but this is not a valid analogy. You aren't God. More generally, since we've never experienced Heaven OR Hell, we don't really know or have a full appreciation for what either would be like (for all eternity no less). I don't think offering such an extreme choice and basically just going "well one's real good and one's real bad so you better be good or else" is exactly a fair set up. I just can't help but to wonder if God would really work like that.

As I posted in the OP, it's people's choice. As much as the ones in Hell suffer they would rather be there than be in Heaven. There are examples right here in this world of people openly saying that they would rather go to Hell than go to Heaven. God doesn't force Himself on us, so he will grant them their wish when they die. And it lasts forever because those who go there will never make the choice to change their minds about it. The demons are like that, and there are people who are like that.

 

[bill5]

Hi,
Oops! I know what the church teaches. I did not know that I was not supposed to go off topic.
I didn't know, or I forgot the original topic.
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

Discussing your thoughts on the matter is hardly off topic. Don't let others dictate how you should post

 

[ebia]

Good points. I don't pretend to have the answers. Just throwing the possibility out there...



Sorry but this is not a valid analogy. You aren't God. More generally, since we've never experienced Heaven OR Hell, we don't really know or have a full appreciation for what either would be like (for all eternity no less). I don't think offering such an extreme choice and basically just going "well one's real good and one's real bad so you better be good or else" is exactly a fair set up. I just can't help but to wonder if God would really work like that.

Let me put it this way: some years back I saw an interview with a woman who's only son was killed by some thug. He was caught, there was no question, and he was unrepentant. She forgave him and had no interest in his punishment. While probably rare to say the least, I doubt she's the only one who's ever been like this. If a mere human being can show such forgiveness for the worst of sins, including a lack of repentance for them, would God do any less? Seems rather dicey to me.

If one sees "hell" or whatever it is purely in terms of punishment, then it has that among other problems.

But if "hell" is whatever is left if you don't choose to participate in the good alternative, then its a different matter.

Which is where pictures like the Great Divorce come in. "Hell" is simply the greying away, the lack of relationship and substance, that those who reject good and relationship bring onto themselves. They are free at any time to choose God's kingdom, but they don't because they remain bound up in their own stubbornness and rejection of what that good entails.

As far as the "everlasting torment" stuff is concerned, most of Jesus' metaphors don't say that at all. They are metaphors of rubbish being discarded: chaff on a winnowing fire, poof and its gone, prunings on a bonfire, rubbish on the smouldering rubbish pit. They entail fire as a metaphor, and in one case that fire goes on forever, but the consequence doesn't - the chaff, prunings, rubbish are consumed (by the fire/themselves).

Its largely by pulling woodenly literal language out of the bible's most metaphoric and symbolic book that people get pictures of everlasting torment.

 

[bill5]

As I posted in the OP, it's people's choice. As much as the ones in Hell suffer they would rather be there than be in Heaven.

Which you "know" because.......

There is no way a sane person in hell would prefer to stay there vs going to Heaven (or anywhere else for that matter).

There are examples right here in this world of people openly saying that they would rather go to Hell than go to Heaven.

And there are numerous reasons to do so, not the least of which is being a childish troll. Again, you'd have to be insane (or a complete idiot) to say that and mean it.

 

[ebia]

Which you "know" because.......

There is no way a sane person in hell would prefer to stay there vs going to Heaven (or anywhere else for that matter).

And there are numerous reasons to do so, not the least of which is being a childish troll. Again, you'd have to be insane (or a complete idiot) to say that and mean it.

That would depend on what you had to give up to "go to heaven".

You pose the choice as though it were simply about destination, independent of any necessary change in the person to suit that destination.