The Catch 22 of Struggling With One's Sexuality

[Zaac]

It is indeed a "spiritual issue" because the promotion of hatred against LGBTs as expressed in public policy advocacy is a soul-destroying cancer eating at the very fiber of the being of those doing it and their families and harming everybody.

Is that the only defense liberals have? If yall don't like something, start screaming hate? Ain't nobody promoting an air of hatred except for those of yall screaming hate about everything.

Crazy Liz brought up somewhere else the situation of the right-wing former State Senator in California whose hateful reaction to his own son's "coming out"telling his parents he was gay) was to push antigay legislation. What a sad situation that was for that particular official, his family, and the people of California. His irrational fear and prejudice led him to push for legislation to harm his own son.

And how is his fear and prejudice any different from the fear and prejudice by those of you who keep yelling "hate" about anything that goes against your position of choice?

 

[Jase]

You've done nothing but make excuses for why folks should accept as nonsin that which GOD says is sin.

God never explicitly says it is a sin. Leviticus is a horrible example, since no one follows Levitical laws today anyway, and Jesus never spoke a word about homosexuality.

 

[Zaac]

God never explicitly says it is a sin. Leviticus is a horrible example, since no one follows Levitical laws today anyway, and Jesus never spoke a word about homosexuality.

You either live by the Word of God or you don't. You can declare what the Bible doesn't say until you're blue in the face. The issue of fornication is addressed in the Old and New Testaments and same-sex sex is fornication.

 

[Jase]

It's a terribly ignorant statement to think that hiding behind the guise of fighting for human rights is gonna fool anyone into thinking you're doing anything other than advocating sin.

We would have to actually accept your interpretation of the Bible in order to be considered of advocating of sin. Since we find your interpretation of the vague references to sexuality to be false, we aren't advocating sin. You aren't the mouthpiece of God, get off your pedastal.

Scandalous. You must serve a mighty small God if He can't control or stop sin. Perhaps the problem is that folks are trying to control or stop the flesh in the flesh instead of letting God handle the desires.

Maybe it isn't a matter of God not being able to, but rather God not wanting too.

Again you ain't doing anything but making excuses for people's WRONG CHOICES.

I'm not making excuses for anyone, I'm telling it like it is. And they are only wrong choices in your opinion.

And right here is why people do not get victory over sin. Ain't nothing of man capable of conquering sin. Christ already has. Let Him handle his business and keep your emotions out the way.

God gave humans emotions for a reason. They are results of brain activity, and therefore can't be just "kept out of the way" unless you are advocating a removal of the limbic system?

What would you know? Are you one of these people who keep choosing to fornicate because of emotions?

No, I've never committed fornication, which makes me wonder why you keep throwing that sin at me, as though it's something I'm guilty of?

Its only hopeless to those who desire fornication more than they desire Christ. Ain't no need to be getting mad at God just because those who want to fornicate want to do it more than they want to serve Christ.

I don't desire fornication. Why do you keep making that assumption about people?

God is not a man that He should lie. If you're going to Him for sustaining, he'll sustain you. If you ain't being sustained it's because you didn't cast your cares on Him.

I've casted my cares on him for the last 10 years. I'm not being sustained.

So because you lack faith in that which is unseen, you trust the results over God?

Has nothing to do with lack of faith. There is clear documentation of therapy providing help to people. God's involvement with personal human issues is far less conclusive.

Go back and read. I'm the one who has corrected people in several threads about sexual orientation not being a sin

And yet, in every thread you keep correlating sexual orientation with fornication. Why is that?

Then perhaps one needs to fill his time with things other than those that feed his attraction.

And if that doesn't work?

If only you could grasp how you're making excuses to justify folks sin. Clearly the issue is the propensity to choose these desires(lustful attractions and fornication) over Christ.

I don't choose any desires.

You both seem to be a little obsessed with making excuses.

Not making excuses, just pointing out the fact that you're wrong and self-righteous. You don't exhibit the teachings of Christ, you exhibit the teachings of prejudicial fundamentalists who wouldn't know Christ if he smacked them on the head.

SO homoesexuals don't choose to fornicate?

They have two choices, celibacy or sin. Heterosexuals aren't so limited.

You're blindly making excuses to justify sin. AIn't no catch 22. You just looking for a nice catchy phrase to legitimize sin.

Again Zaac, no where except in your mind have we legitimized any sin.

It's your sin, so you should know which one would lead you to suicide.

It isn't a sin which leads me to suicide. But, since you keep acting like you know everyone elses sins so well, you should be up to the task of enlightening me as to which sins I have committed that would cause me such torment.

Apaprently you're not as clear as you said earlier about orientation not being a sin.

Struggle and sin are not synonymous. One can struggle with their sexuality, without comitting a sin.

 

[Jase]

You either live by the Word of God or you don't. You can declare what the Bible doesn't say until you're blue in the face. The issue of fornication is addressed in the Old and New Testaments and same-sex sex is fornication.

Do you live by the Word of God Zaac? Do you refrain from eating pork, wearing mixed fabrics, or eating shellfish? Do you stone your children to death when they have been insulting to you?

The issue of judging others, and putting other peoples' sins before you own, is also addressed in the Bible ( far more than same sex relationships in fact), and yet you're quite guilty of both.

Mat 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
Mat 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

 

[Zaac]

We would have to actually accept your interpretation of the Bible in order to be considered of advocating of sin. Since we find your interpretation of the vague references to sexuality to be false, we aren't advocating sin. You aren't the mouthpiece of God, get off your pedastal.

Just another excuse. You're advocating sin.

Maybe it isn't a matter of God not being able to, but rather God not wanting too.

God has a tendency to let people who want to sin keep sinning. If folks want to chase after sin more than they want to chase after Him, why get in the way? Folks want to do what they want to do and then blame God for not taking away desires they don't really want to give up.

I'm not making excuses for anyone, I'm telling it like it is. And they are only wrong choices in your opinion.

There you go making excuses again. God says it. If you don't like it, it's still sin.

God gave humans emotions for a reason. They are results of brain activity, and therefore can't be just "kept out of the way" unless you are advocating a removal of the limbic system?

The Son has conquered sin. Stop trying to solve a spiritual problem with a fleshly aproach.

No, I've never committed fornication, which makes me wonder why you keep throwing that sin at me, as though it's something I'm guilty of?

I didn't throw anything. I asked a question.

I don't desire fornication. Why do you keep making that assumption about people?

Because you keep advocating it .

I've casted my cares on him for the last 10 years. I'm not being sustained.

Then your god must be a liar.

Has nothing to do with lack of faith. There is clear documentation of therapy providing help to people. God's involvement with personal human issues is far less conclusive.

Like was said. You keep applying your fleshly answer to a spiritual problem and wonder why you ain't being sustained.

And yet, in every thread you keep correlating sexual orientation with fornication. Why is that?

I've done no such thing. If I want to correlate or say something, I'm capable of saying it.

And if that doesn't work?

Do it or get someone else to and come back and ask the question afterwards.

I don't choose any desires.

Every sinner chooses to act.

Not making excuses, just pointing out the fact that you're wrong and self-righteous. You don't exhibit the teachings of Christ, you exhibit the teachings of prejudicial fundamentalists who wouldn't know Christ if he smacked them on the head.

You can call me names till the cows come home. You exhibit the teachings of a god who is not God and continue to lead people toward death and destruction instead of towards Christ with your liberal false teachings.

They have two choices, celibacy or sin. Heterosexuals aren't so limited.

They have the same choices as heterosexuals: choose to sin or choose to not sin.

Again Zaac, no where except in your mind have we legitimized any sin.

Again Jase, you've attempted to legitimize sin with every post you've made.

It isn't a sin which leads me to suicide. But, since you keep acting like you know everyone elses sins so well, you should be up to the task of enlightening me as to which sins I have committed that would cause me such torment.

I know what God calls sin. You're just in disagreement with God as to what a sin is. Take it up with Him.

As for your sins that causing you torment, you would be much better versed on those than I.

Struggle and sin are not synonymous. One can struggle with their sexuality, without comitting a sin.

And you'll find nowhere that I've said otherwise.

 

[Zaac]

Do you live by the Word of God Zaac? Do you refrain from eating pork, wearing mixed fabrics, or eating shellfish? Do you stone your children to death when they have been insulting to you?

Red Herring. When you're clear on how the OT works in conjunction with the NT, come back and ask your question again.

The issue of judging others, and putting other peoples' sins before you own, is also addressed in the Bible ( far more than same sex relationships in fact), and yet you're quite guilty of both.

Silliness. I place my sin right next to every other sinner. I just call sin what it is instead of making excuses for it. And you can stop trying to make this about me.

There is no guilt in my righteous judging. Read your Bible and you'll see that God ain't got a problem with the Saints judging.

Mat 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.
Mat 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

[/QUOTE]

Look really close at Matthew 7:2-5. 7:5 says You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

That's not a prohibition on judging. Those are instructions on how to RIGHTEOUSLY judge.

You do one thing FIRST and THEN you can RIGHTEOUSLY judge to remove the speck from your brothers eye.

 

[KCKID]

Red Herring. When you're clear on how the OT works in conjunction with the NT, come back and ask your question again.

Absolute piffle. The word of God is the word of God. God never changes. He is the same today as He was yesterday and will be tomorrow. Isn't it you that has said that over and over and over ...?

Silliness. I place my sin right next to every other sinner. I just call sin what it is instead of making excuses for it. And you can stop trying to make this about me.

If you kept your nose out of the private lives of people you wouldn't know if they were sinning or not, now would you? So, why don't y'all just do that?

There is no guilt in my righteous judging. Read your Bible and you'll see that God ain't got a problem with the Saints judging.

Just as a matter of interest. Would you have a spare halo you could toss my way?

Look really close at Matthew 7:2-5. 7:5 says You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

That's not a prohibition on judging. Those are instructions on how to RIGHTEOUSLY judge.

You do one thing FIRST and THEN you can RIGHTEOUSLY judge to remove the speck from your brothers eye.

Talk about juggling the scriptures! What that text is saying, Zaac, is that YOUR huge plank is greater than the mere speck of others. In other words, YOU are not in a position to judge anyone. It's hyperbole, not a command.

 

[Zaac]

Absolute piffle. The word of God is the word of God. God never changes. He is the same today as He was yesterday and will be tomorrow. Isn't it you that has said that over and over and over ...?

In complete and absolute agreement. Which is why, instead of thinking those statements help his argument, Jase needs to go back and read them in conjunction with what the NT says.

If you kept your nose out of the private lives of people you wouldn't know if they were sinning or not, now would you? So, why don't y'all just do that?

If the so called private lives of people were kept private and not placed underneath my nose while trying to assume the smell of marriage or present their sexual acts as anything other than fornication, I wouldn't have to.

Just as a matter of interest. Would you have a spare halo you could toss my way?

If you don't have one of your own, take it up with Jesus.

Talk about juggling the scriptures! What that text is saying, Zaac, is that YOUR huge plank is greater than the mere speck of others. In other words, YOU are not in a position to judge anyone. It's hyperbole, not a command.

This is why all shouldn't presume to be teachers, but rather remain silent about thse things that they are leaning on their OWN understanding for instead of going to GOD for His understanding.

The Scripture is telling you HOW to judge. It is not saying to not judge.

Like Jase, you need to go read the rest of Scripture and align your surmise with the WHOLE of Scripture.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 says: “All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Let me see you correct or rebuke without making a judgment that something is wrong.

2 Timothy 4:2 says: “Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage- with great patience and careful instruction.”
Same as above. Show me how you correct and rebuke without passing judgment that something is wrong.

Titus 2:15 says: “These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.”

Same as above. Show me how you rebuke without passing judgment

Ephesians 5:11 says: “Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.”

Let me see you expose the fruitless deeds of darkness without making a judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:15-16 says: “The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment: For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”

Self explanatory. Believers should judge all matters and issues.

I John 4:1 says: “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”

Show me how you test a spirit without making a judgment about whether or not it is from God.


But Like I said, align your accusation of juggling Scripture with the FULL COUNSEL of God's Word and you've got me as an audience.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Is that the only defense liberals have? If yall don't like something, start screaming hate? Ain't nobody promoting an air of hatred except for those of yall screaming hate about everything.



And how is his fear and prejudice any different from the fear and prejudice by those of you who keep yelling "hate" about anything that goes against your position of choice?

Questions for you in response:

Do you assert that the love of LGBT couples is not as holy as yours?

Do you advocate not treating them exactly the same as heterosexual couples?

If the answer is in the affirmative my position is well-founded.

 

[Zaac]

Questions for you in response:

Do you assert that the love of LGBT couples is not as holy as yours?

I haven't said anything about the love of LGBTS.

Do you advocate not treating them exactly the same as heterosexual couples?

In regards to what?

 

[OllieFranz]

In regards to what?

I'll take that as a "No." Because you see situations in which you would not, or might not be willing to treat them like you treat heterosexual couples.

The only ways in which your treatment of them, as a couple, or as the members of a couple, would be dependent on with whom they are coupled would be invasive of their intimate relationship as a couple. As long as they are simply your neighbors, your employees, your co-workers, or your tenants, they are exactly the same as a heterosexual couple in the same position.

 

[Texas Lynn]

I haven't said anything about the love of LGBTS.

Precisely. In your zeal to attack LGBTs and their families you have dismissed and discounted and otherwise trivialized the love LGBTs in relationships have for one another.

In regards to what?

Everything.

 

[Forgiven_and_Redeemed]

So what is one to do about such a catch 22? Either live in sin, because of something you were born with and can't change, or kill yourself and go to hell anyway.

Wow... that's an extremely narrow way of looking at things. How about living a celibate life and glorifying God in happiness and love???

Am I the only one who sees a glaring problem with this?

See a glaring problem in what, your argument? Definately.

Precisely. In your zeal to attack LGBTs and their families you have dismissed and discounted and otherwise trivialized the love LGBTs in relationships have for one another.

You mean, trivialise the lust they feel for each other?

 

[Zaac]

I'll take that as a "No." Because you see situations in which you would not, or might not be willing to treat them like you treat heterosexual couples.

You can take it however you choose to. But the proof will be on the page about it being how YOU feel and not I. I'm quite capable of saying what I intend to say.

The only ways in which your treatment of them, as a couple, or as the members of a couple, would be dependent on with whom they are coupled would be invasive of their intimate relationship as a couple. As long as they are simply your neighbors, your employees, your co-workers, or your tenants, they are exactly the same as a heterosexual couple in the same position.

If you got a question to ask, ask it. Otherwise stop pretending like you're answering for me.

 

[Zaac]

Precisely. In your zeal to attack LGBTs and their families you have dismissed and discounted and otherwise trivialized the love LGBTs in relationships have for one another.

What that is is precisely your lie. You haven't seen me attack any LGBTS and their families. So unless you've got proof, retract your statement.

I have spoken to homosexual ACTS and have said NOTHING about folks loving. LGBTS can love one another all they want as God's Word calls us all to love our neighbors. But that love ain't gonna change lust or fornication into anything other than sin.

Everything.

Gosh a homosexual "couple" is the same to me as an unmarried heterosexual couple. So why would I treat them differently?

As far as the homosexual couple vs the married heterosexual couple, I'd treat them the same also. I just wouldn't have to tell the heterosexual couple that their sexual acts were fornicative.

 

[Forgiven_and_Redeemed]

Gosh a homosexual "couple" is the same to me as an unmarried heterosexual couple. So why would I treat them differently?

Well, you did put the word couple in speech marks when refering to a homosexual couple, but not a heterosexual couple.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Wow... that's an extremely narrow way of looking at things. How about living a celibate life and glorifying God in happiness and love???

There is absolutely no need. The suggestion otherwise is most inappropriate.

See a glaring problem in what, your argument? Definately.

Please explain.

You mean, trivialise the lust they feel for each other?

What do you mean? What is different about the "lust" as you sneeringly put it of LGBTs as opposed to that of heterosexuals? What makes you think it is any different at all? Myabe your relationship is primarily motivated by lust, but those of most hets and most homos is not.

 

[Zaac]

Well, you did put the word couple in speech marks when refering to a homosexual couple, but not a heterosexual couple.

That was to point out the non-Christ honoring idea of homosexuals coupling. I still wouldn't treat them any different than the heterosexual couple. People are people. I'm gonna point out error with two homosexuals just as I would with heterosexuals.

 

[Texas Lynn]

What that is is precisely your lie. You haven't seen me attack any LGBTS and their families. So unless you've got proof, retract your statement.

Ah, so then you are saying the loving relatio nships of LGBT couples are just as good as those of heterosexual couples, then?

I have spoken to homosexual ACTS and have said NOTHING about folks loving. LGBTS can love one another all they want as God's Word calls us all to love our neighbors. But that love ain't gonna change lust or fornication into anything other than sin.

Then perhaps the best course of action for you is to cease exercising judgment against LGBTs as you have in your posts here.

Gosh a homosexual "couple" is the same to me as an unmarried heterosexual couple. So why would I treat them differently?

That's your decision. If there's a coworker marying someone of the same gender you will then be contributing just as much for the office gift as you would if they were heterosexual and marrying then?

As far as the homosexual couple vs the married heterosexual couple, I'd treat them the same also. I just wouldn't have to tell the heterosexual couple that their sexual acts were fornicative.

You don't "have" to tell the LGBTs that either. To do so is conscious decision which is at essence an antisocial act.