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The Borgias TV series. Accurate?

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by BentBiscuit, Apr 3, 2012.

  1. BentBiscuit

    BentBiscuit Newbie

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    If anyone has been watching "The Borgias" TV series, do you know how historically accurate it has been?
     
  2. SPB1987

    SPB1987 Newbie

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    I have been watching this show but I do not know about the historical accuracy of it. I certainly hope it is not accurate.
     
  3. BentBiscuit

    BentBiscuit Newbie

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    I have been reading up on the Borgia family since my first post and if even 10% of the claims are true then Pope Alexander VI was a very sinister character.

    I'm not sure how much impact this would have on beliefs about Apostolic Succession and Papal infallibility.
     
  4. Trogool

    Trogool New Member

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    Yes, he was.

    None whatsoever. Personal moral character and the fact that bishops are sinners have nothing to do with the Roman Catholic doctrine of papal infallibility much less Apostolic Succession.
     
  5. BentBiscuit

    BentBiscuit Newbie

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    Interesting. So a Pope can be a complete scoundrel but somehow be guided by God when he speaks ex cathedra?
     
  6. Trogool

    Trogool New Member

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    Obviously. That is how God has always done things.
     
  7. BentBiscuit

    BentBiscuit Newbie

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    So we don't need annoying scripture like Matthew 7:16
    "You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"
     
  8. Trogool

    Trogool New Member

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    We certainly don't need it when discussing a person neither of us has met or knows much about, no. Ignoring for the moment that we are all sinners like the Pope.


    Look, I don't agree with Papal Infalliblity, but there are much better arguments than just insisting "But [Pope you've never met and only read about on Wikipedia or seen on a TV drama] seems like a bad person!" This logic is sophomoric.
     
  9. BentBiscuit

    BentBiscuit Newbie

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    You're completely correct about everything. I won't bother your sensibilities again.
     
  10. WayonDown

    WayonDown Newbie

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    I haven't seen the T.V series, but he was the reason the word "bourgeois" came about. How's that for some family history!

    He was not a very pleasant character. Unfortunately there have been many nasty Popes throughout the ages, however, this doesn't really have anything to do with papal infallibility. The position of pope was a very powerful position, much so than it is today, and there were plenty of characters with motives contrary to Christianity that utilised that position.

    I don't think the vast majority of popes have ever declared much "ex cathedra" with papal infallibility, as far as my understanding goes -- it's to do largely with declarations of faith and morals and it's a solemn and definite declaration so that there is no ambiguity.

    Papal history is much like the history of High Priests in the Old Testament, you had the wicked ones, and you had the righteous ones. One can't necessarily use character assassination of one to make a generalisation of the rest.
     
  11. Root of Jesse

    Root of Jesse Unapologetically Catholic

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    A simple search on the internet for the word you mention gives this:
    bourgeois
    Definition
    bour·geois
    [ boor w ]




    ADJECTIVE

    1.
    conventional: associated with affluent middle-class people, who are often characterized as conventional, conservative, or materialistic in outlook

    2.
    capitalist: according to Marxist theory, relating to the social class that owns the means of producing wealth and is regarded as exploiting the working class


    [ Mid-16th century. < French, "citizen of a city or borough" < Latin burgus "castle, borough" < Germanic ]
    bour·geois NOUN
    Thesaurus
    ADJECTIVE
    Synonyms: middle-class, conventional, conformist, unadventurous, staid, predictable


    It has nothing to do with the Borgias.

    Regarding popes, of the 264 successors of Peter, only a handful, maybe 5 or 6, were actually considered bad popes. Some popes were mediocre, some were good in one area, terrible in others, all according to their gifts of the Holy Spirit. There are many more saintly popes than there are bad ones. Alexander was certainly one of the bad ones.

    Fortunately, you got the meaning of infallibility pretty accurate, and how much it has been used and for what purpose. Also fortunately, popes like Alexander usually didn't bother much with faith and morals teaching. There are even some who conspired to subvert Christianity and died before putting pen to paper to allow it to happen. Also thanks to the Holy Spirit.

    Regarding television shows on most secular channels, I always take them with a grain of salt. Even shows on Catholic television need to be sniffed to be certain they're accurate. Those, if the topic is interesting enough or important enough, I try do do more research on, rather than take the lazy-man's way of watching a program on television. Just a suggestion, ignore most religious programming on secular television during Easter and Christmas. Most of them are erroneous.
     
  12. SolomonVII

    SolomonVII Well-Known Member

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    Wiki list the following inaccuracy about the series:
    Pope Alexander VI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  13. bach90

    bach90 Evangelical Catholic

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    The TV series is far too mild.
     
  14. It fits in the category of historical fiction. It is fiction that is loosely based on history. In short, the overall sense of the series is roughly true, but many things are made up for drama or to fill in gaps, sometimes replacing less interesting things.
     
  15. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis De profundis clamavi et exaudisti me.

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    In the 4th century there was a schismatic sect known as the Donatists, named for Donatus the founder. Donatists were deeply upset by those Christians who caved to the persecutions under Diocletian, known as traditors. After the persecution was over, many of the traditors sought repentance and to be reconciled back into the Church. And they were, even clergy. The Donatists were outraged by this, so much so that they insisted that anyone consecrated by a former traditor was consecrated invalidly; likewise the Sacraments were rendered invalid if celebrated by a former traditor.

    Theologically the Church saw this as supremely dangerous, making the Sacramental gifts contingent on the moral character of the celebrant instead of the grace and promise of God in Christ. The Donatists were fairly quickly regarded as heretics and schismatics who denied the efficacy and power of God's grace. And what was upheld was that all of God's Sacramental gifts were contingent not on fallible, sinful men but rather God's good and gracious promises, it is God who makes these things happen, not us.

    In both Catholicism and Orthodoxy Apostolic Succession is understood as a Sacramental gift, and it is entirely a Divine work, not a human work; and as such it is not nullified simply on account of the moral shortcomings of the priest or bishop. Thus even a truly bad bishop (and the Pope is a bishop) is still a bishop. It is still the responsibility of the Church to deal with bad clergy acting badly in an appropriate manner (which as we are well aware doesn't always happen), but the office itself remains valid on account of grace, not human moral character.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  16. IisJustMe

    IisJustMe He rescued me because He delighted in me (Ps18:19)

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    Old dead threads should be allowed to remain both old and dead. :cool:
     
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