The Book of Revelation: False Prophecy or True Prophecy?

[Job8]

Is the book of Revelation false prophecy or true prophecy?

Where are these attacks on Scripture coming from? We are told who our Adversary is (the word Satan in Hebrew means Adversary), so here is more nonsense from the Adversary. He knows that Scripture is the Sword of the Spirit, so he attacks it at every opportunity. Pay no heed to nonsensical things.

 

[Job8]

True prophecy but past

Really? And how did you arrive at this erroneous conclusion?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Many argue persuasively that the book among other things is an epistle directed at various churches, and an allegorical description of the Eucharistic liturgy.

What I meant to say in more precise, direct and accurate detail. Thanks.

 

[Achilles6129]

Where are these attacks on Scripture coming from? We are told who our Adversary is (the word Satan in Hebrew means Adversary), so here is more nonsense from the Adversary. He knows that Scripture is the Sword of the Spirit, so he attacks it at every opportunity. Pay no heed to nonsensical things.

It's not an attack on Scripture, it's just an attempt to be objective.

 

[Achilles6129]

What I meant to say in more precise, direct and accurate detail. Thanks.

The book is written for the servants of God and addressed to the 7 churches, who in my opinion represent the church universal. So yes, I suppose that the book could be an epistle to the 7 churches.

 

[Job8]

It's not an attack on Scripture, it's just an attempt to be objective.

If we want to be objective we just need to read the first two verses of this prophecy and believe them: 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

What is stated above obejctively is this:
1. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ who is "the Truth"
2. It is given by God the Father who is "Light"
3. It is conveyed by a holy angel to John
4. It is written by God's faithful servant John who is Divinely inspired
5. It is testified solemnly ("bare record") by John that it is THE WORD OF GOD
6. It is also testified solemnly by John that this is the testimony of Jesus Christ, who is also "Faithful and True"
7. It is a record of ALL THINGS that John saw (primarily in visions).

 

[Achilles6129]

If we want to be objective we just need to read the first two verses of this prophecy and believe them: 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

What is stated above obejctively is this:
1. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ who is "the Truth"
2. It is given by God the Father who is "Light"
3. It is conveyed by a holy angel to John
4. It is written by God's faithful servant John who is Divinely inspired
5. It is testified solemnly ("bare record") by John that it is THE WORD OF GOD
6. It is also testified solemnly by John that this is the testimony of Jesus Christ, who is also "Faithful and True"
7. It is a record of ALL THINGS that John saw (primarily in visions).

I absolutely agree that the book is divinely inspired. I'm just saying that we have to be objective in the sense that we examine it like we would any other book making similar claims.

There are obviously other books making similar claims that we reject.

 

[rockytopva]

We all may interpret the book of Revelation differently, but the words of the prophecy must remain intact.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. - Revelation 22

 

[Achilles6129]

Amen.

I wonder what that passage means, however. Is it about making sure the words remain intact or about obeying the words or both?

 

[rockytopva]

I do not think that we are expected to understand the whole passage of Revelation. So interpreting it differently is fine. What is asked is that we do not altar the scripture that was presented.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

We all may interpret the book of Revelation differently, but the words of the prophecy must remain intact.

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. - Revelation 22

Because you said so. Great point.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I do not think that we are expected to understand the whole passage of Revelation. So interpreting it differently is fine. What is asked is that we do not altar the scripture that was presented.

Did someone alter Scripture here?
Or does someone that argues against what one says Scripture must mean get charged with "altering" Scripture?

 

[rockytopva]

Did someone alter Scripture here?
Or does someone that argues against what one says Scripture must mean get charged with "altering" Scripture?

I think the seven churches are seven church ages, others think they are seven churches making a universal, others think that it is just simply seven Asia minor cities. Then we have the interpretation of the four horseman, which in itself can be interpreted differently. If I were to take the following passage...

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. - Rev 3:16

And say that applies to the this church age, that would be OK. If I were to say that the scripture is...

So then because thou art hot, and neither cold nor lukewarm, I will spue thee out of my mouth. - Rev 3:16

That would be altering scripture, which is not OK. I do not think anyone in this thread was trying to say their interpretation was the only one and we were all keeping scripture intact.

 

[Timothew]

OK - does anyone have any more thoughts on evidence for or against the book of Revelation?

For me, it is a matter of Authorship and Authority.
For any book to be included in the New Testament Canon, it must have been written by an apostle of Jesus Christ or a close associate of an apostle (for example, Luke)
So we have Matthew, one of Christ's disciples;
Mark, an associate of Peter and Paul;
Luke, an associate of Paul;
John, one of Christ's disciples;
Paul, the last apostle, meeting Christ on the road to Damascus;
Hebrews???
James, one of Christ's disciples;
Peter, one of Christ's disciples;
Jude, one of Christ's disciples.

And then we have John of Patmos. If he really is the Apostle John, then there is no problem. What evidence is there that this is the same John? If we accept that he is the same person, then I think we also need to accept that he survived being boiled in oil before being sent to Patmos. We also need to accept that after he left Patmos he returned to pastor his church, the Gospel of John seems to indicate that John was with his church until his old age. That would mean that he was not in Patmos, or didn't remain there.

I think there are a lot of problems with the idea that the Apostle John was the author of the Apocalypse, too many to just assume that the Apostle wrote it. To be safe, I would confirm anything written in the Apocalypse with other Scriptures. I don't want to discard the Apocalypse, or go the other way and accept it blindly. It should be read cautiously. I read it the same way I read John Piper or John MacArther, with the rest of the Scriptures in my other hand.

 

[Job8]

Amen.
I wonder what that passage means, however. Is it about making sure the words remain intact or about obeying the words or both?

That passage is primarily about tampering with the words of the book itself (and by extension with the Bible). At the time that John was writing, the Gnostics were furiously tampering with the text of the New Testament by (1) corrupting the text itself (e.g. Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus) and (b) they were creating their own spurious "gospels" (e.g. The Gospel of Thomas). That passage would also apply to translators seeking to alter the meaning of the prophecy by either paraphrasing or substituting other words. Since modern Bible versions have chosen the corrupt text and further paraphrased passages, they have violated this warning. Here is one example (Rev 21:10):

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005
Καὶ ἀπήνεγκέν με ἐν πνεύματι ἐπ’ ὄρος μέγα καὶ ὑψηλόν, καὶ ἔδειξέν μοι τὴν πόλιν τὴν μεγάλην, τὴν ἁγίαν Ἱερουσαλήμ, καταβαίνουσαν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ,

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
καὶ ἀπήνεγκέν με ἐν πνεύματι ἐπ' ὄρος μέγα καὶ ὑψηλόν καὶ ἔδειξέν μοι τὴν πόλιν τὴν μεγάλην, τὴν ἁγίαν Ἰερουσαλὴμ καταβαίνουσαν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ

King James Bible
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, [OMITTED] the holy Jerusalem [ALTERED], descending out of heaven from God,

Nestle Greek 1904 (Critical Text)
καὶ ἀπήνεγκέν με ἐν Πνεύματι ἐπὶ ὄρος μέγα καὶ ὑψηλόν, καὶ ἔδειξέν μοι τὴν πόλιν τὴν ἁγίαν Ἱερουσαλὴμ καταβαίνουσαν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ Θεοῦ

NASB
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God

NIV
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

The Majority Text (representing the majority of Greek manuscripts) has "that great city" whereas the Minority Text omits that phrase, therefore the modern translations slavishly follow the Critical Texts. We know that Nestle (following Westcott & Hort) based his critical text primarly on Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus -- two of the most viciously corrupted texts of the New Testament. This is not my opinion, but the sober conclusion of qualified textual scholars.

But is that omission significant? Is the New Jerusalem not a great city, seeing that it is 1,500 x 1,500 x 1,500 miles (a perfect cube the size of a continent)? Are those the words of God? Has the text been tampered with? On what authority was that phrase omitted? These are the questions which Christians should be asking in light of the solemn warning written by John.

 

[Jaxxi]

Is the book of Revelation false prophecy or true prophecy?

Evidence the book is false prophecy:

1) The author reiterates that the things in the book were to happen soon. It was written in 95 AD.

As sort of a caveat to this, it does need to be noted that the 1000 years encompass the "soon."

2) The bizarre nature of some of the plagues

3) The fact that the book remains yet unfulfilled

Evidence that the book of Revelation is true prophecy:

1) The intricate nature of the book

2) The fact that Rev. 11 does seem to predict modern communication

3) The book's reliance on the Old and New Testaments

Thoughts?

Absolutely true prophesy. Right on the money.

 

[cgaviria]

Is the book of Revelation false prophecy or true prophecy?

Evidence the book is false prophecy:

1) The author reiterates that the things in the book were to happen soon. It was written in 95 AD.

As sort of a caveat to this, it does need to be noted that the 1000 years encompass the "soon."

2) The bizarre nature of some of the plagues

3) The fact that the book remains yet unfulfilled

Evidence that the book of Revelation is true prophecy:

1) The intricate nature of the book

2) The fact that Rev. 11 does seem to predict modern communication

3) The book's reliance on the Old and New Testaments

Thoughts?

Its real prophecy. The beginnings of the prophecies started with the rise of Roman empire and then the catholic church and its persecution and killing of the saints for over 1,000 years. The 42 month prophecy fulfills the 1260 years the catholic church persecuted the saints is a direct timeline of its inception down to when it was shut down in the French revolution some time in the 1700s. After that, it has been reinstated, and it is now known as the harlot of babylon. Scripture predicts that it will be destroyed be 10 entities yet to reveal themselves that will also give their authority to the first beast of the sea, which is the revived roman empire, or rather, the european union we now see rising more and more each day. The beast of the earth is America. The image of the beast it causes the people of the earth to make is democracies that America compells and causes other nations to create. Image is something that copies something else, its a replica. What is the beast? A nation. So if there is an image of a beast, what do you think it would be? A smaller nation. Google the long list of coups and wars America has been involved in to spread its own interests. Why democracy? Because that was the very form of government of the first beast. The second beast, America, stems from the first beast. Look at our form of government? Roman much? Sounds pretty evident to me that Revelation is true and has been unfolding before our eyes in the accuracy of history from the times of the very early church.

 

[yellowastra]

Really? And how did you arrive at this erroneous conclusion?

Asked God thirst told him that i wanna know the truth about everything.
And that i'm ready to even let go what i thought was right to that point in my view.
So i started to read about everything that i could find to read every creed on church websites and whatever.
And at some point i found an article about full preterism aka covenant eschatology.
At the end it was overwhelming evidence for that view for me.
Also watched a lot of debates on youtube concerning this topic.

 

[Abram's Awakening]

Revelations is very true; However-difficult to understand. The knowledge behind the mysteries of prophecy comes only from the Lord(our incorruptible Teacher) in accordance with His Spirit.

Consider the seven trumpets. One of the most significant prophecies, and most essential to understand in regards to the Lord unveiling Himself and proving to all creation that His Word is true. For He helps us to discern our future, and gives us the understanding of why these preordained events have to take place.

When the trumpets sound, spiritually this signifies-not only a new age of mankinds progression towards western civilization-but more importantly what took place during these periods of time corresponding to the apostasy, prophetic famine, and spiritual exile.
He helps us to see and understand our past, its progressive impact on our present state, and the accumalative effects on our future. Why? So that we can take heed to His instruction and warning-which helps us to discern the ancient deceptions brought forth by our adversary; For these days are indeed evil, and the darkness has consumed the majority of the masses. Lies and not truth have prevailed among most. And it is the prophecies found in Revelations that gathers and reconciles the remnant to Himself. Where as if one were to speak in tongues-he edifies himself; but for one to prophesy-he edifies the church and partakes in this spiritual gathering...

For prophecy is found to be with those who truly seek the Lord with all their heart and soul. Visions pertaining to His divine knowledge are bestowed on men such as these-as a gift from God...