The big scary world of science

[yeshuasavedme]

So does my calendar yet no one argues my calendar is wrong for stating what time the sun rises and sets for each day of the year. This is because my calender is written for people living down here on earth and not for someone who mind is up in space.
When someone leaves my home and states "they got to run" I understand (thanks God for given me some common sense) that they will be leaving in their car and won't be actually running down the street.

Also the bible states that God move the sun 10 degrees on the sun dial yet doesn't tell exactly how He did it. I believe it's more likely it was only a local miracle (thus just bend the light locally) and not actually turning the whole earth. The same with keeping the sun still could have also been a local miracle and not a world wide one.

You are not using rational logic. "Running" is understood in context by the speaker and the hearer. If the speaker and the hearer do not understand the context, then nothing means anything at all. YHWH speaks the Truth to His Hearers, to whom He gave language as a gift; and He does not lie about His sun rising and setting and running it's race [-in it's course/highway/throughfare], daily.
Words do mean specific things, and context explains the meanings of the words strung together in sentences.
YHWH created language and gave it to Adam with the built in -programmed- software, for use by his built in hardware -the tongue [as Isaac Mozeson says it], and the word "run" is defined these many ways -from the dictionary in my computer -pasted at the bottom: Edit: I am going to take that entry off, below, because you can read it yourself, and instead paste the entrance on the etymon for "run", from the dictionary, The Word, by Isaac Mozeson, which dictionary continues the work of those who have gone before, like Noah Webster, and others, in indentifying the Edenic etymons of all English words [and the work goes on to identify the Edenic/Hebrew etymons of all words in in all languages, mingled all up at Babel from the One mother tongue.


As to the sun going backwards and the sun standing still -again, you are not rationallly thinking about what YHWH said in His Word.
He said the sun stood still, and the moon, for 36 "times/moments/about a whole day". You are irrational in that you want a greater miracle even, than He did, in that you want the sun to stand still over Joshua and not over the whole world;

He said the sun went turned backwards ten degrees, again; in claiming a local going backwards of the sun you wnat a greater miracle than there was, in that the whole world had a sun going forward while the sun over Israel went backward -no logic in that at all!
He says the sun runs a course. He says the earth is fixed on it's foundation and does not move [there is a time when the earth will be turned upside down and stagger as a drunk [Isaiah 25], but that is in the Great Tribulation, when the heavens change and men on earth take the stars to be gods because of the change and men make images of them to worship -again, as they did before the flood and after, but I digress.

RHINO(CEROS) NaHaR + QeReN
Noon-Hey-Resh + Koof-Resh-Noon
Na-Har + KER(en) ________ [NHR reverseà RHN + KR(S)]
ROOTS: This creature means nose-horned. The KR horn part is seen at “UNICORN.” The many Greek RHINO- words, RHONOPLASTY to RHINOSCOPE, are from Greek rhinos, nose. There is no IE root for this RN term. Turning to RM however, the IE root sreu (to flow) is somehow the cited etymon for Greek rhein, to flow and rheuma, a stream. We can ignore the invented roots, and stick to the actual Greek RN and RM words. The relationship between flowing and the nose is clear to anyone whose had a cold – see “NOZZLE.” Edenic has no RN flowing term for our nose words. But if we reverse the flow of RN, we get NaHaR (to flow or a stream – Genesis 2:10).

BRANCHES: The four RN flowing things in that verse are rivers, which, like programs or machines, are known to RUN. Over 100 English words have RUN or RUNNING, and our nose reminds one of RUNNY. From Greek rheuma we can trace post-Babel tributaries of NaHaR like RHEUM, RHYME and RHYTHM. R-N river names and more at “INERT.”

 

[Smidlee]

He said the sun went turned backwards ten degrees, again; in claiming a local going backwards of the sun you wnat a greater miracle than there was, in that the whole world had a sun going forward while the sun over Israel went backward -no logic in that at all!
He says the sun runs a course. He says the earth is fixed on it's foundation and does not move [there is a time when the earth will be turned upside down and stagger as a drunk [Isaiah 25], but that is in the Great Tribulation, when the heavens change and men on earth take the stars to be gods because of the change and men make images of them to worship -again, as they did before the flood and after, but I digress.

In both the scriptures and Einstein reveal that time is relative. (To God a thousand year is a day and a day a thousands year.) Also in Isaiah 25 is also mentions the "Hand of God" which is a relative terms use to explain God actions in human terms. For God is a spirit and doesn't have hands ,eyes,feet,etc. yet these relative terms are found often in scriptures. All that required is plain ole common sense to know what these terms mean. This also how Jesus told his parables which the common person could understood while the so called know-it-all didn't have a clue what he was referring to.
As far as miracles there are no big miracles to God. God could easily preform a miracle in a local area while the rest of the world wouldn't know any difference. It's also possible that God took John in Revolution to see the actually future if he choose to.

We commonly claim we can see the sun yet actually no one has actually seen the sun. What we see is the sunlight yet if you seen the sunlight you have seen the sun. (if you seen the Son then you have seen the Father) If God right now would bend the sunlight on a local level back 10 degrees then everyone in that area would claim they saw the sun move back 10 degrees. What they be telling the truth? Of course they would just as someone claiming they saw the sun rise.

 

[Matthewj1985]

Thanks for a link back to this thread and your comment which has no context for me

Well you now have somewhere to debate. I am going to follow the forum rules and refrain from debate here though.

 

[Montalban]

Well you now have somewhere to debate. I am going to follow the forum rules and refrain from debate here though.

I was already 'here'. You gave me a link back to the very thread we're in now! (only to an earlier page)

 

[yeshuasavedme]

In both the scriptures and Einstein reveal that time is relative. (To God a thousand year is a day and a day a thousands year.) Also in Isaiah 25 is also mentions the "Hand of God" which is a relative terms use to explain God actions in human terms. For God is a spirit and doesn't have hands ,eyes,feet,etc. yet these relative terms are found often in scriptures. All that required is plain ole common sense to know what these terms mean. This also how Jesus told his parables which the common person could understood while the so called know-it-all didn't have a clue what he was referring to.
As far as miracles there are no big miracles to God. God could easily preform a miracle in a local area while the rest of the world wouldn't know any difference. It's also possible that God took John in Revolution to see the actually future if he choose to.

We commonly claim we can see the sun yet actually no one has actually seen the sun. What we see is the sunlight yet if you seen the sunlight you have seen the sun. (if you seen the Son then you have seen the Father) If God right now would bend the sunlight on a local level back 10 degrees then everyone in that area would claim they saw the sun move back 10 degrees. What they be telling the truth? Of course they would just as someone claiming they saw the sun rise.

Once you leave rational thought behind then you come up with irrational logic like you have, above.

So God bends sunlight backwards ten degrees, in your mind, just so that you can believe that the sun did not go backwards ten degrees! The Word says what was done; but you can't accept that, and so make up an entirely different "miracle" -Why?

YHWH is Spirit, and YHWH exists from everlasting to everlasting in three Persons. The second Person, the Word, has a form in which Adam is made in the image of. So YHWH has a form, which form/image Adam is made in. Genesis 1:26 -28; Romans 5:14; Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

But as for the phrases like "by His hand", "In His hand", the "Hand of God"; the hand is the power, and it is a phrase used even today, denoting "power" -whether used legally or illegally by any one- to bless, curse, bind or loosen.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3027&t=KJV
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3027&t=KJV

 

[BobRyan]

You are not using rational logic. "Running" is understood in context by the speaker and the hearer. If the speaker and the hearer do not understand the context, then nothing means anything at all. YHWH speaks the Truth to His Hearers, to whom He gave language as a gift; and He does not lie about His sun rising and setting and running it's race

And He is of course - scientifically correct for as Einstein observed - motion is scientifically -- accurately described using the frame of reference of the observer.

in Christ

Bob

 

[shernren]

And He is of course - scientifically correct for as Einstein observed - motion is scientifically -- accurately described using the frame of reference of the observer.

in Christ

Bob

But the issue underlying the geo/heliocentric debate is: which moves with respect to the reference frame of the distant stars? The Sun or the Earth?

 

[BobRyan]

Well when you consider that the frame of reference for the observer on earth is ... the earth, then by Einstein's definition the stars are in motion and so also is the sun.

(Of course we know that in real life - the stars AND the sun AND the earth are all in motion ... but "the earth obsever" frame of reference does not require that we see the universe each time we see the sun). The fact is only a small portion of the universe is available to us in the form of visible light.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[yeshuasavedme]

And He is of course - scientifically correct for as Einstein observed - motion is scientifically -- accurately described using the frame of reference of the observer.

in Christ

Bob

So you believe that Einstein proved God does not speak what He means us to understand? -I think not.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

-But I think you did not include all of Einsteins statement on the matter. I think that he said something like [paraphrased] "the math works whatever reference point you use to compute from.

 

[Smidlee]

Once you leave rational thought behind then you come up with irrational logic like you have, above.

So God bends sunlight backwards ten degrees, in your mind, just so that you can believe that the sun did not go backwards ten degrees!

To Hezekiah , Isaiah and the sundial there would not be any difference. Notice this was a personal sign to Hezekiah and well as the extra 15 years. So I don't believe God did a world wide miracle when He could just as easily did it only for Hezekiah. There is no reason for God to go overboard.
When we look into the sky and see the sun we see where the sun was 3+ minutes ago. When We look into the sky and see all those stars we are seeing them as their were in the past. (yet for all we know a lot of them may no longer exist.) For example: if the North Star no longer exist it would still be true that we see the North Star and to us it would still exist for a time. There is nothing illogical about that.

It's would be the same if Isaiah came back from the dead and came to my house and said that God was adding 15 more years to my life. I asked for a sign and Isaiah said God said look into the sky for I will turn the sun purple. I look into the sky and behold I see a purple sun. I would get excited and call my mother and asked if she saw the sun purple. She said no so according to you God lied because He did not make the sun purple for everyone and only to me whom the sign was intended.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

To Hezekiah , Isaiah and the sundial there would not be any difference. Notice this was a personal sign to Hezekiah and well as the extra 15 years. So I don't believe God did a world wide miracle when He could just as easily did it only for Hezekiah. There is no reason for God to go overboard.
When we look into the sky and see the sun we see where the sun was 3+ minutes ago. When We look into the sky and see all those stars we are seeing them as their were in the past. (yet for all we know a lot of them may no longer exist.) For example: if the North Star no longer exist it would still be true that we see the North Star and to us it would still exist for a time. There is nothing illogical about that.

It's would be the same if Isaiah came back from the dead and came to my house and said that God was adding 15 more years to my life. I asked for a sign and Isaiah said God said look into the sky for I will turn the sun purple. I look into the sky and behold I see a purple sun. I would get excited and call my mother and asked if she saw the sun purple. She said no so according to you God lied because He did not make the sun purple for everyone and only to me whom the sign was intended.

That is your word. -This is God's Word;
2Ki 20:11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

The entire world was effected by the sun's going backward ten degrees.
Not one star has ever failed in the entire six thousand years of their creation.
God calls them all by name. -In the Great Tribulation one third of them will be cast down to earth, however.

Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these [things], that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that [he is] strong in power; not one faileth.

And once, the stars in their highways fought against sisera:
Jdg 5:20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses/highways/paths fought against Sisera.

 

[RobertByers]

Yes the sundial backing up is a miricle from god. Perhaps some close study of ancient sky observations would show this.
I don't agree the stars never changed or got destroyed. The bible only says God protects them as he sees fit.
The stuff about a third of the stars has been seen by some creationists, like the great Henry Morris, as what happened after the fall. Satan fought with michael the angel in a cosmic war and the source of much damage in the universe and the crators on earth.

 

[Smidlee]

That is your word. -This is God's Word;
2Ki 20:11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

I agree with the scriptures so I'm not doubting the miracle.

The entire world was effected by the sun's going backward ten degrees.
Not one star has ever failed in the entire six thousand years of their creation.
God calls them all by name. -In the Great Tribulation one third of them will be cast down to earth, however.

This is your interpretation. Now I realized I could be wrong it could be a world wide miracle. I personally doubt it. It's the same I believe the first star appeared at Jesus birth was for the known world. Thus everyone who looked up would see it. A few years later there was a star that lead the wise men to Jesus exact location. This star is, I believe, a local miracle just for the wise men. Thus not an average star we see in a great distance in space but a local light to guide these wise men.
John wrote Revelation. If he was happen to be in the future and saw 1/3 of the night sky become completely black then he would have wrote as if stars has fallen. (or he could have saw missiles shooting across a night sky) I believe there are some scriptures that hints of a nuclear war yet it has to be written in a way that could be understood before the anyone knew what nuclear was.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I agree with the scriptures so I'm not doubting the miracle.
This is your interpretation. Now I realized I could be wrong it could be a world wide miracle. I personally doubt it. It's the same I believe the first star appeared at Jesus birth was for the known world. Thus everyone who looked up would see it. A few years later there was a star that lead the wise men to Jesus exact location. This star is, I believe, a local miracle just for the wise men. Thus not an average star we see in a great distance in space but a local light to guide these wise men.
John wrote Revelation. If he was happen to be in the future and saw 1/3 of the night sky become completely black then he would have wrote as if stars has fallen. (or he could have saw missiles shooting across a night sky) I believe there are some scriptures that hints of a nuclear war yet it has to be written in a way that could be understood before the anyone knew what nuclear was.

That star in the east is a mystery to us, but those wise men knew what they saw and understood what they were seeing. They were the descendents of the wise men whom Daniel was over, in his day.

In six days God finished His creation, all the stars were finished which He created. Stars have some symbolism which I do not understand but which Enoch wrote of in parables when the angels showed him. Stars have courses, and that star appeared in its pre-ordained season in its pre-ordained place to those wise men who read the stars, which represented the King of the Jews who was to come.

In Jasher, Benjamin could understand the stars and by the star chart brought to him he read and understood that Joseph beside him was his brother. Obviously, Astrology is a perversion of something which was different,
In the tribulation there will be seen star signs in the heavens. The woman of Rev 12 is seen as a star sign.
Job mentioned the constellations and called some by names. They obviously do not resemble what they are called.
The twelve constellations are somehow a symbol or similie of Abraham's seed, and the camps set around the tabernacle were somehow symbolic of the heavens and of the plan of God for redemption and the "establishing of the heavens".
Before the end I'm sure more books will be found which belong to the records the Jews kept from the patriarchs, which will explain even more.

1 Enoch [Chapter 43]
1 And I saw other lightnings and the stars of heaven, and I saw how He called them all by their 2 names and they hearkened unto Him. And I saw how they are weighed in a righteous balance according to their proportions of light: (I saw) the width of their spaces and the day of their appearing, and how their revolution produces lightning: and (I saw) their revolution according to the 3 number of the angels, and (how) they keep faith with each other. And I asked the angel who went 4 with me who showed me what was hidden: 'What are these?' And he said to me: 'The Lord of Spirits hath showed thee their parabolic meaning (lit. 'their parable'): these are the names of the holy who dwell on the earth and believe in the name of the Lord of Spirits for ever and ever.' [Chapter 44]
Also another phenomenon I saw in regard to the lightnings: how some of the stars arise and become lightnings and cannot part with their new form.

We all have a time to come forth and a time to die [ Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die]; and as stars have a course to run, so do we. Paul said;
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith:

Jesus said, Of John the Baptist; Jhn 5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.


Jesus is called the "day star" 2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Jasher 53: 16-23
And Joseph swore unto them, and he pressed them hard, and they drank plentifully with him on that day, and Joseph afterward turned to his brother Benjamin to speak with him, and Benjamin was still sitting upon the throne before Joseph.
And Joseph said unto him, Hast thou begotten any children? and he said, Thy servant has ten sons, and these are their names, Bela, Becher, Ashbal, Gera, Naaman, Achi, Rosh, Mupim, Chupim, and Ord, and I called their names after my brother whom I have not seen.
And he ordered them to bring before him his map of the stars, whereby Joseph knew all the times, and Joseph said unto Benjamin, I have heard that the Hebrews are acquainted with all wisdom, dost thou know anything of this?
And Benjamin said, Thy servant is knowing also in all the wisdom which my father taught me, and Joseph said unto Benjamin, Look now at this instrument and understand where thy brother Joseph is in Egypt, who you said went down to Egypt.
And Benjamin beheld that instrument with the map of the stars of heaven, and he was wise and looked therein to know where his brother was, and Benjamin divided the whole land of Egypt into four divisions, and he found that he who was sitting upon the throne before him was his brother Joseph, and Benjamin wondered greatly, and when Joseph saw that his brother Benjamin was so much astonished, he said unto Benjamin, What hast thou seen, and why art thou astonished?
And Benjamin said unto Joseph, I can see by this that Joseph my brother sitteth here with me upon the throne, and Joseph said unto him, I am Joseph thy brother, reveal not this thing unto thy brethren; behold I will send thee with them when they go away, and I will command them to be brought back again into the city, and I will take thee away from them.
And if they dare their lives and fight for thee, then shall I know that they have repented of what they did unto me, and I will make myself known to them, and if they forsake thee when I take thee, then shalt thou remain with me, and I will wrangle with them, and they shall go away, and I will not become known to them.

Abraham's seed and the stars;
Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, 1) thus, here, in this manner [is thy] seed