The bible teaches that every person is saved, so who is going to hell? (MOVED)

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

Folks, this thread is being moved to Controversial Theology. The CF Statement of Faith includes this:​

Discussions about Nicene and Trinitarian beliefs will take place in the Christians only forums, all discussions regarding non-Nicene and non-Trinitarian topics will take place in the Controversial Theology forum. Those topics include (but are not limited to)
● Universalism
● Open Theism
● Full Preterism
● Non-Trinitarianism
● Annihilationism
● Discussions related to unorthodox Christian religions

This thread is on universalism, which is considered unorthodox on CF. ​

 

[Imagican]

I find it amusing that the author of this thread offers select scripture to back their desired BELIEFS, while IGNORING all that are contrary to their personal beliefs.
ALL will be judged according to their WORKS. Some will be judged according to DEATH and some to LIFE.
While the possibility of forgiveness has been offered to ALL men, ALL men will NOT accept it. And a gift MUST be accepted in order for it to BE 'a gift' in truth. If I offer you something and you refuse it, it is NOT a 'gift'. Merely an OFFERING of a 'gift'.
Blessings,
MEC

 

[Imagican]

UR does NOT conform to the Bible. Those that follow it have let others pick and choose individual LINES of scripture, mostly OUT OF CONTEXT, and form this IDEA that does NOT conform to the ENTIRETY of scripture. Not even CLOSE.
All men will NOT be saved and the Bible makes this perfectly CLEAR. Only when one chooses to create the concept on a handful of scripture while ignoring the rest is it possible to even exist. But like most cults, the truth rarely matters as much as one's DESIRED beliefs.
If ALL were saved, then there would BE NO JUDGEMENT.
Blessings,
MEC

 

[LastSeven]

It can not be denied that there are seemingly contradictory scriptures. One says that all will be saved and every knee shall bow, and the other says that sinners will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Typically in such cases you have to interpret less clear scripture in light of more clear scripture. In this case, both seem pretty clear, and still contradictory, so it's not enough to simply pick the side you believe in without explaining how it can be reconciled with the scriptures on the other side.

If anybody who does not believe in universalism can explain why these two verses appear to claim it, please do so.

1 Timothy 4:9-10
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

My second question would be related specifically to the first verse posted above, and the word "especially". The word especially means "also, but in a greater way". So while the entire verse implies salvation for all, this particular word implies a distinction between "all people" and "those who believe". Can anybody explain this?

 

[SarahsKnight]

1 Timothy 4:9-10
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

My second question would be related specifically to the first verse posted above, and the word "especially". The word especially means "also, but in a greater way". So while the entire verse implies salvation for all, this particular word implies a distinction between "all people" and "those who believe". Can anybody explain this?

I have often wondered this, too. The fact that the term "especially" here is being used really keeps it from being an open and shut case against universalism. Even if it were the ONLY verse in the entire Bible to indicate that God will eventually reconcile everyone, still, why use that term at all, even once? It is intriguing. I don't know what to make of it all, though, especially when most Christians are still in the opposite camp, believing in the lost going to a place eternal conscious separation from God.

 

[Jeshu]

It can not be denied that there are seemingly contradictory scriptures. One says that all will be saved and every knee shall bow, and the other says that sinners will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Typically in such cases you have to interpret less clear scripture in light of more clear scripture. In this case, both seem pretty clear, and still contradictory, so it's not enough to simply pick the side you believe in without explaining how it can be reconciled with the scriptures on the other side.

If anybody who does not believe in universalism can explain why these two verses appear to claim it, please do so.

1 Timothy 4:9-10
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

My second question would be related specifically to the first verse posted above, and the word "especially". The word especially means "also, but in a greater way". So while the entire verse implies salvation for all, this particular word implies a distinction between "all people" and "those who believe". Can anybody explain this?

Your second question I did address somewhat in this post here;

Dear brother I fully agree with you, the unbelieving sinner is not saved, the bible clearly states that, however the bible still says that God saved all people on various occasions, so that still remains to be explained. Why would Paul stress the truth that God is the Saviour of all people by saying that it what he was about to say is a trustworthy saying?

The first question I think we need to answer is who are we people? Where do we come from?

The bible teaches that all people are His offspring!

Acts 17:28

‘For in him we live and move and have our being. As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.

Originally we are all children of our Heavenly Father.

Psalms 127:3

Children are a heritage from the Lord, offspring a reward from him.

However be this as it may, we all fall.

We all believe lies, which kill our Godly heritage within and causes us to have life in lies with the devil as father instead.
Evil works havoc in our heart! Where spiritually we are in the lie but feed from life and kill, oppress, enslave, imprison and exploit God's heritage within.

Isaiah 59:1-4
The righteous perish,
and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away,
and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away
to be spared from evil.
Those who walk uprightly
enter into peace;
they find rest as they lie in death.


“But you—come here, you children of a sorceress,
you offspring of adulterers and prostitutes!
Who are you mocking?
At whom do you sneer
and stick out your tongue?
Are you not a brood of rebels,
the offspring of liars?


So this is what takes place inside of every person born on this planet.

All sinners are guilty of murder, for we killed our Godly inheritance - our true self within - in favour of our big I - our untrue self - we sinners are all the offspring of liars!

However the Godly heritage in each person is saved! When God punishes the sinner who ruled sinful life, then as the sinner dies the true child of God is raised from the death, in this way all people are saved and every sinner dies. Revelation 19 and 20.

So yes the bible is right to warn those who haven't got Jesus to cover them - they need to come to Him. For life in lies will not survive the coming of The Truth, When Jesus comes into our life then everything that has life in lies dies (Revelation 2:23) and the truth killed is resurrected to rule life with Christ. (Revelation 20)

So yes Paul is spot on when he writes that God specially saved us who have put our faith and trust in Him, for we were sinners before He came into our lives but then He made straight that which was crooked and what was not His own He made His own.

1 Timothy 4:9-10
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

So yes the bible teaches it true, God saved all people and no sinners will come in heaven without faith in Christ.

Yes Paul points out that even though all people are saved it is much better to be a saved sinner!

It is beyond understanding what God has is store for the sinner who turns to Him. Where we bring sin within us - our times - in the spirits/lies such as dishonesty, pride, arrogance, hate, lust, gossip, judgementalness, greed, vanity, unbelief, doubt, fear, murderous rage, worldliness, selfishness and countless others, as well as the consequent realities/forces such spirituality bring awake within us, to Jesus and let Him turn wrong into right. This is what faithful servants of God do - they bring life in wrong to Jesus, die to the lies shaping them, and find eternal life in the truth of God. Time and again!

We saved sinners all know the joy when spirituality within us such as greed, where once we selfishly grabbed everything for ourself, (we know that is how we once were,) we now generously give away to our (needy) neighbours! Or where once we doubted God and His truth, now we proclaim His loving truth whenever we have a chance. Or where once we were sexually perverted in our ways, we now delightfully serve Him with our flesh. Or where once we hate people, we now love them all. Or where once we wanted sinners to go to hell, now we love to see them saved. Where once we were not His children, now we are His children, where untrue self is reborn into true self. (Oh how my heart praises God for saving me sinner and all! Everyday I can go and let His loving truth sanctify me, while those who still live in the lie will all perish at Christ's return.

For those who did not repent in this life - evil spiritualities still feast on God given good life - when Christ comes back - there will only be death and destruction - no repentance possible - all life in devil's spirituality will die when Christ comes into sight - and sinful spirituality will all end up in hell - Revelation 20:11-15. It is the Godly heritage that each human is given - the very good life sin kills within us because we listen to Satan's lies, which comes back to life and is freed from bondage, to take over the reigns and rule with Christ.

What salvation is there for those who have life in unbelief, for example, when Christ comes only believing will be possible, life in lies will become loathsome in the eyes of the believer. This will be true for all those who still have life in lies.

The apostle Peter explains

1 Peter 4:5-6

But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.


So yes I know that God saved all people and pride in Christ who has turned so much wrong in me into right - everyday again He works on this, such privilege to find safety in the loving truth of The Son of God, such joy to work within His Rest.

 

[LastSeven]

So, are you saying that sinners will not enter into the kingdom of heaven because their sinful nature will first be removed from them? Thereby making everybody righteous, and everybody saved?

 

[DennisTate]

Taking verses out of context?

1 Timothy 4:9-10
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

Please explain how I take these verses out of context when I say that Paul clearly teaches that God is the saviour of all people? Paul even emphasises the truth of what he says by saying that this is a trustworthy saying.

Time is an invention, and Messiah Yeshua - Jesus in his glorified form, was involved in "inventing" the universe/ multiverse which apparently has at least eleven if not twenty six separate dimensions of space - time.

When Hollywood postulates multiple time lines, they could be onto something, because fundamental energy operates at SOME TRILLIONS the level of energy that can be attained in a particle accelerator.

Ezekiel chapter 37, rather than being a one time event could in fact happen again and again and again as what we think of as the past is recreated, which could be the Revelation 20 and 21 resurrection of all the people living at that time, and then a much greater amount of the HOly Spirit can be poured out into that new time line thus leading a higher number of people to salvation.

But.... as in II Corinthians 12:2-4........ God may not have wanted universal salvation completely and easily understood because it can so easily be twisted around to get us into trouble.


"The real burden in the next three centuries will not be the development of fancy mathematics, but the experimental testing of these ambitious theories. All current thinking about total unification assumes that the effects of linking all the forces and particles together will only become manifest at energies that are some trillion times greater than those currently attainable in particle accelerators. Probably we shall never reach such energies directly" ( A Theory of Everything" Volume 21 of "The World ofScience)

 

[Rajni]

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

They may not inherit the kingdom, but that doesn't mean they
won't be citizens thereof. Not all residents of a kingdom are
inheritors of it.

I find it amusing that the author of this thread offers select scripture to back their desired BELIEFS, while IGNORING all that are contrary to their personal beliefs.

Everyone does that, though. As soon as someone shares
scriptures suggesting one thing, those that disagree with it will
present scriptures that suggest otherwise. I can't recall ever
seeing this not happen. For that matter, I'm not even
sure it's possible to avoid having it happen.








-

 

[Berean777]

Many called yet only a few are chosen.

Ultimately Christ chooses who he wants and many will say Lord Lord in that day and the Lord will say away from me you evildoers.

Scripture highlights the separation of the Wheat from the Tares and so it shall be.

 

[Jeshu]

So, are you saying that sinners will not enter into the kingdom of heaven because their sinful nature will first be removed from them? Thereby making everybody righteous, and everybody saved?

Yeah the person in sinful deed will be removed - for when the truth comes our life in lies is exposed in us, done away with, and punished by God - just as the bible teaches. Then the truth that people are His offspring will be resurrected but that wont benefit the unrepentant sinner in the least. Such spirituality will be to busy gnashing teeth and thirsting after the good life they once possessed and squandered and killed with so much pleasure. God's Word will not be denied.

(When Babylon falls, Revelation 18, all this will take place, Revelation 19 and 20 will come true in the life of every person who has ever lived.)

 

[KimT]

I believe that context is critical. I would adjust your findings to say that everyone is offered the gift of salvation by Grace through Faith. Not all accept the offer.

Agree

 

[LightBearer]

Agreed also.

As usual context is everything here. The point Paul is making is that salvation is assured particularly for those exercising faith.

The apostle Paul advised Timothy that a benefit of godly devotion is that it “holds promise of the life now and that which is to come.” (1 Timothy 4:6-8) Then Paul wrote: “For to this end we are working hard and exerting ourselves, because we have rested our hope on a living God, who is a Savior of all sorts of men, especially of faithful ones.”—1 Timothy 4:10.
God holds out to all men the possibility of salvation. As Paul wrote: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (1 Timothy 2:5, 6) But who will respond to the ransom, choosing life rather than death? (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20) Some people reject the Christian message of salvation. In others, the ‘seed’ takes root and grows for a while, but later they let opposition, material interests or other concerns come between them and salvation.—Matthew 13:3-8.

So while the salvation God holds out is available potentially to everyone, the way things turn out will prove that salvation is particularly for “faithful ones.” The apostle Peter thus urged: “For this reason, brothers, all the more do your utmost to make the calling and choosing of you sure for yourselves; for if you keep on doing these things you will by no means ever fail.”—2 Peter 1:10; John 3:16.

 

[LastSeven]

This is a very interesting discussion. I see good arguments for both view points and this may be a case where we have to look outside the box, or outside of the typical meanings of words, as Jeshu is doing. I don't know if he's right or wrong, but I do know that quite often the meanings of scripture are not obvious to those reading it from the perspective of modern day English meanings and nuances. If only Paul were here, we could ask him to clarify.

 

[Johnlove1]

Psalms 22:25-31
From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you I will fulfill my vows.
The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!


All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.


All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!

Romans 5:18
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.

1 Timothy 4:9-10
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

How are we to understand this when it says in the book of Revelation that everyone who has ever lived shall be judged according to what they have done?

Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Nowhere in scripture does it say that saved means one will go to the kingdom of Heaven.


Jesus told us who it is that would go to the kingdom of Heaven with him in the following scripture.


(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

 

[Winken]

Nowhere in scripture does it say that saved means one will go to the kingdom of Heaven. Jesus told us who it is that would go to the kingdom of Heaven with him in the following scripture, Matthew 7:21.

The Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew and the Kingdom of God in Mark and Luke are identical. Those who did the will of the Father in Matthew were those individual Jews who acknowledged Jesus as their Promised Messiah, opening the door to Faith, as noted in the Abrahamic Covenant. Upon resurrection, they will enter the Millennial Kingdom. National Israel, the Nation of Hebrews, as a Nation, did not open the door.

Anyone since Acts 9 who does the will of the Father has answered the call of the Holy Spirit, opening the door to Grace through Faith, Romans 10:8-13. They instantly are found in the Presence of God.

In each case, Promised Messiah or Grace through Faith, see Genesis 17:7 and Genesis 22:18.

 

[Hank77]

My second question would be related specifically to the first verse posted above, and the word "especially". The word especially means "also, but in a greater way". So while the entire verse implies salvation for all, this particular word implies a distinction between "all people" and "those who believe". Can anybody explain this?

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

the Saviour of all men, reconciling the world unto Himself (God)
specially of those that believe, be ye reconciled to God

Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[Rajni]

My second question would be related specifically to the first verse posted above, and the word "especially". The word especially means "also, but in a greater way". So while the entire verse implies salvation for all, this particular word implies a distinction between "all people" and "those who believe". Can anybody explain this?

I take it to mean that while God saves everyone, those who
believe it—who realize it here and now—have the added benefit
of knowing they've got something positive to look forward to
beyond physical death. It gives this earthly life heaven-on-earth
potential that might not be there if one doesn't realize / believe
that, as the song goes, their future is so bright they have to
wear shades. •‿• And not only their future, but that of their
loved ones and everyone else.

“All shall be well,
and all shall be well
and all manner of thing
shall be well.” ~ Julian of Norwich

-

 

[Winken]

Commentary, in context:

1Ti 4:10 who, because of the Cross, offers salvation to all, being the Savior of all who believe (Romans 10:8-13).

2Co 5:19 through the Abrahamic Covenant, inclusive of the Promised Jewish Messiah, reconciling the world unto Himself, thereby not imputing trespasses unto those under the Covenant who receive reconciliation by faith, having committed unto the Apostle Paul and his followers the doctrine of Grace through Faith for all who believe.

2Co 5:20-21 Now then we Christian witnesses are praying for you Christian followers of Jesus to stay strong in Faith, hope and trust, and for the unsaved to receive Him as Savior (Romans 10:8:13). The justification? God made Jesus to be sin for us, so that we could become His Righteousness.

Joh 16:8-9 And when He is come, He will convict those who failed to acknowledge Jesus as Messiah / Savior.

 

[Johnlove1]

Scripture tells us a sinner will never enter the kingdom of God.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”


Jesus told us only those who do the will of the Father in Heaven will come with him into the kingdom of heaven.


(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”


The will of the Father in Heaven is to listen to Jesus.


(Matthew 17:5) “While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered ...when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said,

“This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”


Jesus said to love him one has to keep God’s Commandments.

(John 14:21) “Anybody who receives my commandments and keeps them will be one who loves me; and anybody who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and show myself to him.”


(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”


Jesus not to sin.


(Matthew 5:29-30) “If your right eye should be your downfall, tear it out and throw it away; for it will do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body thrown into hell. And if your right hand should be your downfall, cut it off and throw it away; for it will do you less harm to lose one part of yourself than to have your whole body go to hell.”


I personally think it is very poor reasoning to believe Jesus came here, die on a cross, just so sinners could come live in Heaven with him.


Apostle John said Jesus came to do away with the devil’s work. The devil’s work was to entice man to sin.

(1 John 3:8) “Whoever lives sinfully belongs to the devil, since the devil has been a sinner from the beginning. This was the purpose of the appearing of the Son of God, to undo the work of the devil.”