The Bible Condones Rape

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aiki

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However, in my own experience, there have been times when I saw God as being a merciless terror and times when I wholeheartedly believed the words of John in that God is love.
You make it sound as though the two things - God being a merciless terror to the wicked and His being loving - are mutually exclusive things. Do you believe this?

I found the underlying factor between these extremes to have been my faith in Christ: it wasn't until I began to believe wholeheartedly in the words of Christ and to follow His voice above every other that my perspective radically changed.
But the words and actions we read of in Scripture are reported to us via his disciples. We read of Christ's words and deeds second-hand through the recollections of his followers. Why trust them to accurately relate the truth above the other contributors to the Bible?

That being said, I can intuitively understand how those who predated Christ could have misinterpreted the nature of God.
"Intuitively understand" sounds like just a fancy way of saying "make assumptions."

The definition of 'divine inspiration' with regard to the entirety of the scripture which I prefer is then that of a progressive revelation: the same nature of God was continually interacting with humanity up until the point that it was most clearly revealed through Christ in the flesh.
But Christ acted in accord with everything the OT revealed of the nature of God. Jesus, then, didn't reveal anything new about God; he was just a tangible, human manifestation of the God the Jews had worshipped for centuries.

Do you honestly believe that the love of God is coercive?
It is the love of God that prompts Him to warn us of the eternal consequences of our willful, unrepentant disobedience to His laws. Such a warning may seem coercive to some, but the motive for it is to protect and save, not force.

Here's a more blatant example for you:

"Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." (Lev 26:28,29)

Do you believe that the nature behind such a message is the nature of Christ?
It sounds horrible taken in isolation from its context. But the passage from Leviticus you've cited follows after four earlier escalating attempts by God to produce repentance in His Chosen People are defied. God shows tremendous patience and mercy in the slow, incrementally-escalating method He uses to turn the wayward Israelites back to Himself. He doesn't just drop the hammer and crush the Israelites the first time they step out of line. Instead, He only moves to the harsh extremes described in Leviticus 26: 28, 29 after several earlier, less severe measures have been resisted.

God doesn't demand the Jews' obedience "or else." On one hand God warns of His discipline if His Chosen People stray from their covenant with Him. On the other, God offers blessing and prosperity if His People maintain their fidelity to Him. God uses both positive and negative inducements, the carrot and the stick, to prompt the Israelites to walk with Him. And God does the very same thing in the NT (see John 10:10; Heb. 12:5-11; )

I'll admit, I have a chip on my shoulder because of Baptist theology. I was once a baptist as a child, and I still remember very vividly how the leadership had all the small children (roughly 5 years of age or so) shut behind closed doors where we had the fear of God shoved down our throats.
I've been within the Baptist denomination since birth. The fear of God was taught but never in isolation from His love, mercy and grace. I'm sorry to hear your experience was so different from mine.

The question is, will we believe Him, or will we fall backward to the words of Moses and the OT prophets as the foundation of our faith?
I don't see that the God presented to us in the OT is less clear or realized than the God we encounter in the NT.

Malachi 3:6
6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change...

Hebrews 13:8
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Selah.
 
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Nanopants

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I don't see that the God presented to us in the OT is less clear or realized than the God we encounter in the NT.

Malachi 3:6
6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change...

Hebrews 13:8
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Selah.

And that really is the heart of the matter. I do not discount the prophets as being entirely wrong, but I don't count them to be perfectly accurate in everything (especially with the nature of God). The scriptures say that the Apostles and Prophets are the foundation of our faith, but the chief corner stone of that foundation is Christ. (Eph 2:20)

I interpret that to mean that Christ is the divine axiom of correct doctrine and understanding of the scriptures. When this "corner stone" is in its proper place, the OT law can be seen as a shadow of things that were revealed (Heb 10:1). In other words, the way I see it, the Gospel explains the OT, and not the other way around.

Aside from that we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
 
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razeontherock

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In other words, the way I see it, the Gospel explains the OT, and not the other way around.

This is the starting point! and yet sooner or later, you come t realize some things. Like when Paul merely mentions the breastplate of righteousness, the's a WHOLE LOT to it, that he knew, and expected his audience to know too.

And those details give us a more detailed and complete picture of who Jesus himself is, so that we may know Him better.
 
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Emmy

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Dear Question. Everything. When Jesus came He showed us God as God really is, our loving Heavenly Father. You are quoting from the Old Testament: " A History of the Israelites and their Prophets." Jesus told us: "Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. ALSO: Love our neighbour as ourselves." Our neighbour being all Mankind, friends and enemies. Our sword is Love, selfless and freely given: no conditions asked. The Old Testament is as we were, and the New Testament: How God wants us to become. Jesus our Saviour is waiting to lead us back to where we came from. I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.
 
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GA777

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Now I've tried to read into the "context" of this story to see if there's any way to disregard what's actually happening here, but I'm not seeing anything.

Who are you trying to kid here?


Isaiah 13: 15-16 puts it plainly:

15Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.
16Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.


Why would God command that children be dashed to pieces and women be raped? No matter what they're guilty of, how is this a demonstration of love?

He is talking about babylon people , the most wicked at those times, who did a lot more than these things. As a just God, he has to make an end for this and punish those deserving the punishment, and helping and supporting those who deserve it. He is just for the wicked and all loving for the worthy, which arent few at all
 
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oi_antz

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Here's another quote for you:
Isaiah 29
11 All the future events in this vision are like a sealed book to them. When you give it to those who can read, they will say, “We can’t read it because it is sealed.” 12 When you give it to those who cannot read, they will say, “We don’t know how to read.”
Notice this seal was broken by Jesus:
Matthew 10:27
What I tell you now in the darkness, shout abroad when daybreak comes. What I whisper in your ear, shout from the housetops for all to hear!
I hope this helps you to see that there is a deep spiritual nature to the bible, that you can't see by observing the letter.
2 Corinthians 3:6
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
You are right, your spiritual is eternal and by faith in Christ you have life, but you must agree that we humans communicate by word. There is a lot to learn by studying the bible, but as any faithless scholar will demonstrate: knowledge of the things of God is worthless if it doesn't have the life of the spirit.
 
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aiki

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Does this mean that all who disagree with you are fanatics?

Nope. Just the fanatics.

Well, who are the fanatics, then?

Well, I'm sure you believe this - but this by no means certifies you as correct. As I said, the Bible is only meaningless to those who don't understand it. And those who don't understand it are so because they are spiritually dead in "trespasses and sins," unenlightened by God's Spirit who reveals the truth of God's Word to those who are His.

I do not claim to be completely right. No one is. But because I understand the Bible, that is why it is meaningless.

As I explained, the Bible cannot be meaningful to millions of people and at the same time be truly meaningless. I think what you mean is you don't agree with what the Bible reveals.

For it is extremely errant words on paper, that make more contradictions to itself then there are stars in the sky.

Strawman Argument. And a gross misuse of hyperbole.

You cannot be "enlightened" to understand something that is meaningless.

As I have explained, if the Bible were truly meaningless, no one would find it meaningful. But, there are millions of people who find the Bible extremely meaningful. Therefore, it is not meaningless.

"God's" spirit is within, and a book cannot contain something like that.

No Christian believes God's Spirit is contained within the Bible. His Spirit illuminates our understanding of it, however.

I think I am quite spiritually alive, thank you very much. Because the spirit is eternal.

I'm sure you do, but the Bible tells me that you are, in fact, very much dead spiritually.

Inasmuch as it is the Word of God, who is in control of everything, then I suppose, in a sense, it is a "book of control" (though not in the way you mean).

There cannot be a "word" of "God". For as I said, words are extremely unreliable and errant.

Aren't you using words to tell me that words are "extremely unreliable and errant"? Yes, in fact, you are. But this makes your statement self-refuting. If words are "extremely unreliable and errant," then your words, which tell me words are this way, are also unreliable and errant. They cannot, therefore, be trusted to communicate what is true and reliable.

The most likely chance was that it was written to keep people enslaved to a certain dogma, which is the perfect control.

Please provide evidence for this assertion. Thanks.
LOL! Feel free to show me what you mean here!

That is rather obvious if you would open your eyes. It is the problem of many apologetic arguments that the same things they say against others apply to their own religion just as any other.

Again, show me how.

I use words, among other things, to expose falsehood and irrationality. If this is how I'm "hiding" in words, so be it.

Well, then why are you here? Get out there and expose it then!

I am here because there are people such as yourself who need exposing.

But what I said about words still applies, so choose said words carefully.

LOL! See above.

Pot calling the kettle black, I'm afraid. I guess we'll "wallow" together. You in your "cloud of deceit" and I in mine.

Live and let live. It's part of the Golden rule.

The "Golden Rule" is a Christian phrase, you know.

I'm afraid however, that many of your faith cannot follow that one rule. And that is not an insult.

Many? How many Christian do you know? Of the millions that there are in the world, how many do you know personally? Even if you knew ten thousand Christians personally (which I very much doubt) and they were all as you describe, you still only have a comparatively tiny sampling of the total number of Christians worldwide. It's probably not a good idea to argue from generalities.

Selah.

(Oh, and by the way, you never did respond to the following observation and question:

"What do you mean by "spiritual truth"? And why can't it be found in any book?

Are you not attempting to express
the truth about spiritual truth using printed words that appear on my computer screen? Yes, in fact, you are. Why can you share spiritual truth in print this way, but a book cannot?")
 
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oi_antz

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You two have a fundamental difference in understanding of what the bible means. Someone should identify what that is and eventually agree to what is right. Maybe one of you could start a thread for that, isn't there a debate section on CF where two people can go to sort out their problems?
 
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this thread has undergone a clean up.

Please read the guidelines for this forum - the ONLY nonChristian allowed to post in this thread is the OP. That is it.

 
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