The Bible calls homosexual activity wrong, but . . .

IzzyPop

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Dude, you're completely missing my point. My point is that no university has gone out and made a credible study of homosexual life expectancies. Why not? Could it be that people are afraid of what the studies will reveal about homosexuality?
Here is a nice little article that should answer your question and let you in on Paul Cameron. Kind of a two-birds-one-stone thing.
 
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GrayCat

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God views all sins as equal--murder, lust, gossip, slander, witchcraft, pride, whatever. Homosexuality is a sin, just as are many other behaviors that I personally engage in on a regular basis. But God expects us to peer into our own hearts and accurately judge our character as corrupt and needing redemption. The problem with a lot of homosexuals is that they are not willing to admit that their behavior is wrong. I look inappropriate contentography, but at least I have the moral courage to admit that looking at inappropriate contentography is wrong, and I am engaging with God to help him fix that defective aspect of my character. A person, whether homosexual or not, who is unwilling to admit their behavior pattern is wrong, will probably be unable to enter Heaven, though God is the judge of that. To enter Heaven is to submit to God's divine control over your life. To refuse to call a sin a sin is to fail to submit to God. To fail to submit to God is to walk away from him. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Be fearful of God so that you will do the right thing and have your actions and faith be pleasing to him.

The vast majority of them don;'t hate themselves and don't see themselves as deficient. If they do, it is internalized homophobia due to other's spreading hatred about them that they begin to dislike themselves.

If they don't believe it is wrong, there is nothing for them to "admit." It is their own feelings.


On another note, i start laughing whenever I see a list of "sins" cause so many of them I have already done and what's more I often don't even agree with what others label as "Wrong". (But don't worry - murder is not one of the ones i've done.) LOL
 
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LightHorseman

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Dude, you're completely missing my point. My point is that no university has gone out and made a credible study of homosexual life expectancies. Why not? Could it be that people are afraid of what the studies will reveal about homosexuality?
Um... well, if no one has done a credible study, how come you are so sure of the outcomes before such a discovery has been done?
 
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Beanieboy

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Dude, you're completely missing my point. My point is that no university has gone out and made a credible study of homosexual life expectancies. Why not? Could it be that people are afraid of what the studies will reveal about homosexuality?

That's called speculation. I could suggest that the only reason that there is no study on how long the average conservative christian lives in because they are afraid that they will find out their lives are cut short.

Without a study, it's a big speculation.

One would have to ask why the one doing the faulty study didn't redo it, if it were so important. Why not quote real data?

Currently, I don't know of any study that shows the life expectancy of heterosexual men and women either. Men and women, yes, but it does not specify the sexual orientation. Perhaps it doesn't matter?
 
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LightHorseman

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Here is a nice little article that should answer your question and let you in on Paul Cameron. Kind of a two-birds-one-stone thing.
wow, thanks for posting that artice!
Cameron's method had the virtue of simplicity, at least. He and two co-authors read through back numbers of various urban gay community papers, mostly of the giveaway sort that are laden with bar ads and personals. They counted up obituaries and news stories about deaths, noted the ages of the deceased, computed the average, and published the resulting numbers as estimates of gay life expectancy.
Neubecker_angel01.GIF

What do vital-statistics buffs think of this technique? Nick Eberstadt at the American Enterprise Institute sums up the reactions of several of his fellow demographers: "The method as you describe it is just ridiculous." But you don't have to be a trained statistician to spot the fallacy at its heart, which is, to quote Centers for Disease Control and Prevention statistician John Karon, that "you're only getting the ages of those who die." Gay men of the same generation destined to live to old age, even if more numerous, won't turn up in the sample.
http://www.slate.com/id/2098/
 
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Beanieboy

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God views all sins as equal--murder, lust, gossip, slander, witchcraft, pride, whatever. Homosexuality is a sin, just as are many other behaviors that I personally engage in on a regular basis. But God expects us to peer into our own hearts and accurately judge our character as corrupt and needing redemption. The problem with a lot of homosexuals is that they are not willing to admit that their behavior is wrong. I look inappropriate contentography, but at least I have the moral courage to admit that looking at inappropriate contentography is wrong, and I am engaging with God to help him fix that defective aspect of my character. A person, whether homosexual or not, who is unwilling to admit their behavior pattern is wrong, will probably be unable to enter Heaven, though God is the judge of that. To enter Heaven is to submit to God's divine control over your life. To refuse to call a sin a sin is to fail to submit to God. To fail to submit to God is to walk away from him. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Be fearful of God so that you will do the right thing and have your actions and faith be pleasing to him.

I don't see homosexuality as wrong.
You can argue it from a biblical standpoint, but you have to really ignore the research of theologians that argue against it, the analysis of translations, the 99.9% of Leviticus that people ignore, etc.

I think that equating homosexuality with murder, lust, etc, is like me saying that you and your spouse are the same as a murderer. It's absurd, because one involves harming the other, and homosexuality doesn't. Should I look to, say, heterosexual rape, and then only view heterosexuality from that lens?

Is that honest?

In the same way, I have a hard time understanding how two people of the same sex in a committed relationship is considered "immoral." I have had discussions with my straight friend, Rich. We have talked about dating, jealousy, dealing with fights, things that annoy us about our significant other, etc. It's pretty much the same in both of our lives, only he likes women, and I like men. For me, when someone claims, "two men can't be in love with each other," I believe the one who is gay before I believe the one who is heterosexual, and not only ignorant of love with another man, but refuses to learn or even listen.
 
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beechy

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I'm saying that gay sex is like drinking Hershey's chocolate syrup straight out of a bottle. Sex is sweet in the right context, but if sex is abused, it becomes sour.
If lesbians have sex once every 30 days and heterosexual couples have it more often, that's evidence that lesbians have abused their sex and it has become sour?
 
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beechy

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This is true. An extension of what I'm saying is that a person who is married cannot have an erotic relationship with another person and truly love them in the "agape" kind of unconditional love. The best way to love someone you are strongly sexually attracted to, when you're married to someone else, is to not have a sexual relationship with them. Love is not about self-gratification.
Do you believe that your sexual relationship with your wife is less about self-gratification than Phyllis Lyon's has been with Del Martin during the 50+ years they have been together?
 
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SiderealExalt

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God views all sins as equal--murder, lust, gossip, slander, witchcraft, pride, whatever. Homosexuality is a sin, just as are many other behaviors that I personally engage in on a regular basis.

I don't know but for some reason seeing witchcraft in there just made me laugh. It certainly makes it hard for me to take that seriously. Though I wouldn't in the first place.

But God expects us to peer into our own hearts and accurately judge our character as corrupt and needing redemption. The problem with a lot of homosexuals is that they are not willing to admit that their behavior is wrong.

I'd say you'd have to prove that homosexuality is inherently wrong in the first place. But I know asking you that is a moot point and would basically be talking to a wall. For my part, I find nothing inherently wrong with homosexuality.

I look inappropriate contentography, but at least I have the moral courage to admit that looking at inappropriate contentography is wrong, and I am engaging with God to help him fix that defective aspect of my character.

Personally I don't think looking at legal inappropriate contentography is inherently bad. I do however think that it, like BILLIONS of other potential activities in the world also can be abused. The key factor is obsession and lack of responsibility, which is what should be examined, not the activity in and of itself.

I honestly hate to say it, but I think this is one of those areas in which Christians are for the greater part, myopic and so shortsighted as to cause more trouble than the problem they are trying to solve.

A person, whether homosexual or not, who is unwilling to admit their behavior pattern is wrong, will probably be unable to enter Heaven, though God is the judge of that. To enter Heaven is to submit to God's divine control over your life. To refuse to call a sin a sin is to fail to submit to God. To fail to submit to God is to walk away from him.

I don't believe in any Gods so my answer to all of this is pretty much a given. But even from a basic theological level I find metaphysical slavery, especially to a being that is omniscient and omnipotent morally repugnant.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Be fearful of God so that you will do the right thing and have your actions and faith be pleasing to him.

Fear is rarely, I find, an ultimately helpful thing. But people's capacity to act and think clearly in the face of fear tends to be the important factor.

I'll say you're entitled to your opinion and I believe in a world in which a person is free to have that opinion. But I'm also of the opinion that this sort of thinking is bollocks.
 
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True_Blue

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Here is a nice little article that should answer your question and let you in on Paul Cameron. Kind of a two-birds-one-stone thing.

Ok, you're not getting my point either--the Slate article trashes the life expectancy study without giving us a better set of numbers with better data and methodologies...
 
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True_Blue

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I just found out a few minutes ago that my wife is pregnant with our third child. HURRAAAAAY! This is a joy that I hope all you lesbians get to experience with your male husband, and something I hope all you gays get to experience with your female wife.
 
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True_Blue

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I don't know but for some reason seeing witchcraft in there just made me laugh. It certainly makes it hard for me to take that seriously. Though I wouldn't in the first place.

I'd say you'd have to prove that homosexuality is inherently wrong in the first place. But I know asking you that is a moot point and would basically be talking to a wall. For my part, I find nothing inherently wrong with homosexuality.

Good, my insertion of witchcraft was meant to be a joke--I'm glad you picked up on it.

I have an analytical methodology for determining whether something is right or wrong. But how do you determine right from wrong? That question is actually far more important than homosexuality, which the Bible only mentions a few times here and there. I'm very interested in your response.
 
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icedtea

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I just found out a few minutes ago that my wife is pregnant with our third child. HURRAAAAAY! This is a joy that I hope all you lesbians get to experience with your male husband, and something I hope all you gays get to experience with your female wife.
:eek:
 
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beechy

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Ok, you're not getting my point either--the Slate article trashes the life expectancy study without giving us a better set of numbers with better data and methodologies...
Can you point me to the numbers regarding the life expectancy of preschool teachers? How about the life expectancy of neo-pagans? What about the longevity of people who think rib eye is better than strip steak? The fact that no one has bothered to compile statistics to counter the fatally flawed "study" of one kooky "psychologist" who has been formally renounced by the American, Nebraskan, and Canadian Psychological Associations, as well as the American Sociological Association, is hardly remarkable.
 
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beechy

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I just found out a few minutes ago that my wife is pregnant with our third child. HURRAAAAAY! This is a joy that I hope all you lesbians get to experience with your male husband, and something I hope all you gays get to experience with your female wife.
In case it wasn't clear from my earlier posts, if I experience the joys of parenthood and revel in the blessing of a child, it will be with my female partner, not my male husband ... since I don't have, nor do I plan on having, a male husband.

Congratulations, by the way.
 
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True_Blue

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Can you point me to the numbers regarding the life expectancy of preschool teachers? How about the life expectancy of neo-pagans? What about the longevity of people who think rib eye is better than strip steak? The fact that no one has bothered to compile statistics to counter the fatally flawed "study" of one kooky psychologist who has been formally renounced by the American, Nebraskan, and Canadian Psychological Associations, as well as the American Sociological Association, is hardly remarkable.

Preschool teachers are not in danger of contracting AIDS, Kaposi's sacroma, and other loathsome diseases by virtue of being a preschool teacher. Moreover, except for the neo-Pagans you mention above, people who like rib eye steak are not isolated from a relationship with God for the mere fact that they eat rib eye steak. If I see someone about to get in a car drunk, I'm going to STRONGLY encourage them not to. This is a moral obligation because, despite my blunt language, I care about you guys. I live an absolutely wonderful life in almost every respect, despite a few setbacks here and there, and I want all of you to live as my wife and I do.
 
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beechy

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Preschool teachers are not in danger of contracting AIDS, Kaposi's sacroma, and other loathsome diseases by virtue of being a preschool teacher. Moreover, except for the neo-Pagans you mention above, people who like rib eye steak are not isolated from a relationship with God for the mere fact that they eat rib eye steak. If I see someone about to get in a car drunk, I'm going to STRONGLY encourage them not to. This is a moral obligation because, despite my blunt language, I care about you guys. I live an absolutely wonderful life in almost every respect, despite a few setbacks here and there, and I want all of you to live as my wife and I do.
I was responding to your posts which implied that Cameron's reeeeediculous study must have some element of truth to it because he's the only one who has compiled such statistics. The fact that you personally believe gays and lesbians have dangerous "lifestyles" which result in their early demise doesn't make his study any more credible.

And I live a wonderful life too. So I think I'm going to continue to live my life ... not yours.
 
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beechy

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Preschool teachers are not in danger of contracting AIDS, Kaposi's sacroma, and other loathsome diseases by virtue of being a preschool teacher.
Gay people aren't in danger of contracting AIDS and other loathsome diseases by virtue of being gay. Rather, people who practice unprotected sex with other infected partners put themselves at risk of contracting AIDS. And did you know that lesbians have a lower HIV infection rate than heterosexuals?

Moreover, except for the neo-Pagans you mention above, people who like rib eye steak are not isolated from a relationship with God for the mere fact that they eat rib eye steak.
What does this have to do with your defense of Cameron's obit study? Did he also conduct a study showing that neo-Pagans die earlier than Christians?

If I see someone about to get in a car drunk, I'm going to STRONGLY encourage them not to. This is a moral obligation because, despite my blunt language, I care about you guys. I live an absolutely wonderful life in almost every respect, despite a few setbacks here and there, and I want all of you to live as my wife and I do.
Again ... not sure what this has to do with Cameron's study ...
 
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