The best evidence for Creationism

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Inan3

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I also think it's important to note that it's the diversity in science, not science in itself, that makes it hard to get an overview of how things work.

Agreed!! Science is a noble venture to find the answers of life and our existence and to help and aid humans and other creatures who share our existence together on this earth. It is only when it is used to manipulate and deny things that are not necessarily observable to the natural eye. That is when I believe many errors are made. It is not all inclusive and therefore, should be evaluated in that light.
 
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Inan3

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I don't think anyone knows for certain. For some reason, perhaps sexual selection, giraffe ancestors with longer necks left more offspring.

"For some reason, perhaps...."
For some people speculation is not enough, Gracchus.


You certainly understand your own mind better than you do giraffe evolution. Or do you?!

Yes, I do.

Why would a doper ever think about giving up his drugs, when they make him feel so good?

How about changing it to something rational, a mind that can make decisions based on the real world and not just wishful fantasies?

Well, Gracchus, your comparison of me and a doper is really reaching. I don't find any similarities. Many years ago, I used to be a "doper" and I found it to be NOTHING like my relationship with the Lord. I certainly know the difference. I am not a Christian because it "makes me feel good" I am a Christian because I am convinced it is the right way and the truth. I have no desire to go back to a useless existence and dependency on substances that temporarily give you a "good feeling" but are deceptive in nature and in truth, hurt you more than they help you. No, there is no likeness at all.

As to fantasies, none here.... and the "real world" as you suggest.... How's that working for you? Not so well, I suspect.
 
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Gracchus

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Agreed!! Science is a noble venture to find the answers of life and our existence and to help and aid humans and other creatures who share our existence together on this earth.
Science may do those things, but in its purest form it is about satifying curiosity.
It is only when it is used to manipulate and deny things that are not necessarily observable to the natural eye.
If a phenomenon can be observed, it can be studied. If it cannot be observed, then it cannot be studied.
That is when I believe many errors are made. It is not all inclusive and therefore, should be evaluated in that light.
Science can even study delusions and fantasies. We are starting to understand religion. You can bet that possibility would scare a lot of people out of their wits, if they had any wit to begin with.


:wave:
 
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Inan3

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You cant believe that man and monkeys come from a common ancestor, but you believe in A god because let me guess thats what you were born into believing? If you were born in India you would grow up to be a muslim and put your heart into that, did you ever think of that?

What I was born into was Catholicism but when I got older I couldn't agree with it because it seemed hypocritical to me. So I left it, much to the chagrin of my family. I never returned to Catholicism because as I have studied it, I am more convinced that I don't agree with it. That is not to say that I don't agree with "some" of what they teach but being born into something does not mean you will never leave it.

The reason I believe in God today is that when I was 21 years old I began to ask God questions that my family nor anyone else I knew could answer... but God could and did. He opened up ways and things for me that I found those answers and I have never looked back. My life changed dramatically when I ask Christ into it. God is not hard to find. He is waiting right there for all of us to come to Him. If I was born in India or the middle east or anywhere on this earth, when I asked God the same questions and turned to Him for the answers He would have come into my life and given me the same answers because while there may be many religions, there is only one God and if ANYONE, regardless of their background, seeks God they WILL find Him!!
 
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Inan3

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Science may do those things, but in its purest form it is about satifying curiosity.

As I said, "find answers".


If a phenomenon can be observed, it can be studied. If it cannot be observed, then it cannot be studied. Science can even study delusions and fantasies. We are starting to understand religion. You can bet that possibility would scare a lot of people out of their wits, if they had any wit to begin with.

This would be very funny if it were not so sad. To me this is delusional thinking, and I don't mean to belittle you, I just find it so pompous and naive at the same time. Religion has been studied for ages, long before modern day scientists decided to look into it. No one is afraid of that. What happens when people do that is that many encounter God and find the truth. Go ahead and study for yourself, Gracchus. I think you need to find the truth. It can make you free. That's a good thing. :)
 
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Gracchus

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The reason I believe in God today is that when I was 21 years old I began to ask God questions that my family nor anyone else I knew could answer... but God could and did.
I would say you found your own answers. And I would not be contradicting you. Even the best parent can't and won't give you all the answers. At some point you must begin to think for yourself. Let us ask: What do the children of God grow up to be? What do you want to grow up to be? Think carefully before you decide on an answer.


:wave:
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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With regard to Katrina evidence, you are distinguishing between sediment layers and strata, because your theory suffers from the fallacy of assuming the conclusion.

Oh brother. I hope you're not one of those folks to takes inspiration from "logic and reason" based apologists like Jason Lisle who would find the assertion that The tuna salad sandwich I had for lunch today was delicious logically fallacious for one reason or another.

That said. No. Your response is simply incorrect. The differentiation between sediment layers and strata are key to understanding geology. Multiple layers of sediment in a particular location due to a known process is expected. Creationists cannot extrapolate that out to try and explain the myriad and diverse strata found in the geological record however. The fact that a localized volcano or hurricane produces sedimentary mud layers doesn't explain why, in the geological record, we find marine limestones layered with aeolian standstones with terrestrial paleosols, etc.

And it sure has heck doesn't explain why we find trace fossils like insect burrows, track prints, root systems, stromatolites, etc. in strata that supposedly was lain down during the Flood. Where are the examples of trace fossils and/or aeolian deposits and/or paleosols in your Katrina scenario?

There is no satisfactory scientifically derived empirical evidence that soft tissue and plant products can fossilize in natural as opposed to laboratory settings.

Gish Gallop. What does this have to do with the sediments lain down by Katrina flooding vs. the strata we find in the geological record?

But wait, there's more! I'll gladly answer your questions about "soft tissue" and "plant products" after you define what you mean by those terms. Non-bone fossils are found all the time, but usually as endocasts. The same applies to plant "products" though we have coal which is all "plant products" and we find fossilized pollen quite frequently. Again, just tell us what you mean by those terms and we can have an honest discussion.

On decay "non-constants" look for the research by Jenkins, Fischbach and Sturrock.

I did. The most prominent promoters were Creationist websites. After some digging I found a site that noted they were crunching numbers from observations decades earlier, that no one had replicated their results and that the isotopes in question were not ones used for dating.

C14 is the only process that one can even come close to empirical proof and it is shakey at best -- newly formed rock from volcanic activity dated to thousands of years?

Since volcanic rock has no organic carbon in it, why would one use C-14 dating in order to try and determine what date it was? Sounds to me like Creationist shenannigans.

Just to be transparent, yes I am a Young Earth Creationist, and have been for 25 years since my undergrad years at UVa. You do not have any valid criticisms of most of those young earth or creationist sources except that you reject their outlook and conclusions.

I'd say you certainly are being transparent. Noting in one sentence you're a YEC and in the next projecting YEC bias onto scientific discoveries that you disagree with as being philosophically based. It's been seen here to much that it's almost a cliche. The "you do not have any valid criticisms" bit is the icing on the ironic cake because everyone responding you so you far has presented valid criticisms and you have ignored them or done a Gish Gallop.

Occaisionally faulty material gets posted, but when pointed out it gets pulled down. Here is a challenge: Answers Research Journal and Creations Research Society Quarterly are peer reviewed journals. Find one fact that is false, one conclusion arrived at based upon a logical fallacy or posit one valid real criticism of their peer review process.

Spare us your huffing bravado. How about you present one or two articles you find particularly compelling and let us address them? Of course you might want to select carefully since bogus lies like IRC's Brian Thomas MS's abortion of a post title claiming that analyses of human and chimp Y specific chromosomes show that humans are more closely related to chickens than chimps
Are Humans as Close to Chickens as They Are to Chimps?
or the recent claims that Russell Humphreys' claims about Mercury having a magnetic field showing Mercury and thereby the Universe to be only 6,000 years old when his calculations, when compared with the data from Mercury Messenger show Mercury and thereby the Universe to be only ~860 years old.
Mercury III « Eye on the ICR
 
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USincognito

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On the animal bottleneck and created kinds,

Oh just stop with the "created kinds" nonsense. Unless you can demonstrate it is a scientifically valid concept that has explanatory power, it's meaningless verbiage.

provide one empirically verifiable piece of evidence that does not suffer from the fallacy of assuming the conclusion...

I warned you about argumentum ad fallacium. In this case, let me give you a lesson. Your use of weasel words like "empirically verifiable" which are an attempt to poison the well (logical fallacy), and your appeal to a non-contextual fallacy tells me you're just going to respond with moving the goalposts, equivocation or trotting out another misplaced, non-contextual fallacy that you learned from whatever apologetics 101 source first taught you how to weild them like a bludgeon. I hate to tell you this, but your coaches lied to you, not every word out of someone's mouth or the words they type on the Internet are a logical fallacy and you're in danger of falling for them yourself if you take their "tactics" to heart.

If you want to be taken seriously in this debate, just poop or get off the pot.

or uniformitarianism that tends to disprove that created kinds existed and resulted in the diversity that we now see.

You're using "uniformitarianism" as a buzz word and incorrectly.
- Uniformitarianism means the observation that processes in place now were in place in the past and we don't have to appeal to some "other" process to understand them.
You're using "created kinds" as if it were a scientifically valid concept with explanatory value, which it's been shown to you that it is not.
- I've already shown you how the "orchard" concept of kinds just doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny. Bisons are Bovidae are Mammals, etc. There's nothing baraminologists or Creationists have come up with to show a stopping point or line in the sand for common ancestry of their supposed "created kinds".
You're again claiming that diversity is the result of genetic front-loading and as I've already pointed out to you, we don't see that.
- Again, where is the evidence that all "cat kind" had the genetic diversity to produce lions, snow leopards and housecats (and hyenas since they are in the Caniform clade)?

I was not aware that the genome of every species, much less every individual had been mapped. So USincognito simply cannot substantiale the statements he/she makes. Even if the statement were accurate -- it would be a case of we do not fully understand it yet.

Oh brother. You really need to keep up with the science if you're going to attempt to argue a scientific subject.
List of sequenced animal genomes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course this is another example of you engaging in the logical fallacy (see what I meant about this tactic being a land mine field) of the red herring. Instead of showing me any of the mapped genomes that evidence your "front-loading" ad hoc (also logically fallacious) "argument" you try and divert the subject to something else - the lack of complete genomes of every being that ever existed.

I accept your concession that the ad hoc "front-loading" "argument" doesn't withstand scrutiny.
 
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thomasmitchel

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Replying generally to USincognito.

On created kinds. I have a valid historical text that records that created kinds came off the ark. I have been engaged in this debate for several months on a couple sites and you anti-creationists have been unable to provide one empirical piece of evidence tending to disprove their existence. Your ipse dixit that they are non-existent does not make it so. Prove it.

Gish gallop? You are amusing. Identify one half truth I trotted out -- except the c14/volcanic rock mistake. It was diamonds that did violence to c14 and the volcanic rock (Mt. St. Helens, etc.) did violence to other dating methods.

On fallacies. It has been a quarter century since my logic courses, but I do not recall a fallacy called argumentum ad fallacium. The anti-creationsit theories suffer from a number of logical fallacies. That you cannot or will not address them does not make them disappear. I am not moving the goalposts, but simply insisting that you play by the rules of evidence and logic. Poop and pot? Those actually describe or explain a number of anti-creationist theories. Red herring is not technically a fallacy per se but the introduction of something immaterial or irrelevant to the discussion. To quote one of my favorite movies -- I do not think that term means what you think it does. You attempt to use a reference to the genome to "disprove" created kinds. Until a kind is completely understood and the genome of (at least) every species in that kind is mapped your argument is -- well -- incomplete to put it nicely.

On strata versus sediment layers. The point is you believe they are different because strata as you define it takes decades or centuries to lay down. It does not. And the anantomy and detail we see in some places -- such as the Grand Canyon -- demonstrate evidence more consistent with a catastrophic Flood than nice, gentle year after year after year after year after year after year laying down of something that become strata with an insect here and a plant there and a dead animial of some sort there. That is what I mean by fossilization. Want to discuss MOR 1125? Did they date the rock or the bone itself?

On the decay inconstants. The anti-creationists are simply ignoring the evidence -- at the same time, of course, the Purdue group is attempting to patent the processes (changes in the so-called constants) they observed in order to sell the fact they can aniticpate solar flares. Take off the twin blinders of bias and prejudice and do some real scientific investigation (I think I saw in an earlier post that you were in a science profession).

Regarding creationist sites. ICR is generally a decent site, although I do believe some articles are premature or based upon unverified data. The challenge I set for you, however, is with regard to the peer reviewed journals Answers Research Journal and Creation Research Society Quarterly. One false fact. One concusion based upon a logical fallacy. One quibble with the peer review process. Do your research and get back to me.
 
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Guy1

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Loudmouth

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You have no mountains of scientific evidence.

Yeah, I do. There is a reason that 99.9+% of degreed biologists accept the theory of evolution. That reason is the evidence. Trust me, biologists are a very contentious bunch. If there was any opening to falsify the ToE they would do it. As it is, biologists are only arguing the finer points of evolution.

You suggest that surely there is some scientific evidence that I can point to but truthfully you have not given me any evidence that proves your point either. You only have speculation.

I have shown you this evidence before. Here it is again:

"First, the distribution of provirus-containing loci among taxa dates the insertion. Given the size of vertebrate genomes (>1 × 10^9 bp) and the random nature of retroviral integration (22, 23), multiple integrations (and subsequent fixation) of ERV loci at precisely the same location are highly unlikely (24). Therefore, an ERV locus shared by two or more species is descended from a single integration event and is proof that the species share a common ancestor into whose germ line the original integration took place (14)."
Constructing primate phylogenies from ancient retrovirus sequences

We share hundreds of thousands of these ERV insertions with other apes. This is smoking gun proof that we share a common ancestor with other apes. We have been through this evidence before, and I think you have wisely stated that you don't have the background to properly assess these claims. Now we see that you are claiming that I have never presented this evidence before. This is very untrue. It is still there. Here are a few more pieces of evidence for you to consider as well:

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent

You know that this evidence exists. It has been shown to you time after time. So why the denial?

As to the global flood account you have no proof that it didn't happen.

Yeah, I do. I have lake varves, tree ring histories, and annual ice layers that are uninterrupted during this period.

There are polystrates all over the world, turbidity currents, spontaneous sorting of layers, marine fossils in mountains, eratic boulders, fissures in the rocks, frozen mammoths, extensive strata and pancake layering, out of order fossils, etc. I know that you will suggest an answer for each of these but there are enough scientists that have questions about these that it makes sense to give them as much credence as the answers that those who would like to deny a global flood existence.

There are polystrate fossils being formed all of the time. You don't need a global flood to produce these features. What you have bought into is a group of people who share your same ability to ignore the evidence. Real geologists who work in the field come to very different conclusions. For example, Glenn Morton was a long time YEC. He even published YEC papers. Then he started working in geology. What happened? The evidence was too much to ignore. I stronly recommend you read his story found here:

"But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.
"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"
That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him."
Glenn Morton's story


The fact is that people want to deny God or the Bible as valid and therefore they CHOOSE to rather believe the lie and let themselves be convinced that it is untrue.

Given the number of christian scientists who accept mainstream biology and geology I can only assume that you are incorrect. The only thing being rejected is your interpretation of scripture.

I suggest there is enough evidence in the natural to suggests that it could be true and that coupled with my own spiritual experience and knowledge of God keeps me on the side of the scriptures.

Then let's start with ERV's. Please explain why this is not evidence of common ancestry.
 
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Jamin4422

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Yeah, I do. There is a reason that 99.9+% of degreed biologists accept the theory of evolution.
Right a survery taken by skeptics dot com of 158 research biologists.
I think we both need to get a life and quit playing here in the sandbox.
Just how many items do you still need to check off on that prat list of yours?

Real geologists who work in the field come to very different conclusions.
Actually it was a conversation with a YEC Geologiest that got me to question a 6,000 year old earth. Of course at the time I did not know anything at all about geology. It was like he lived in two worlds. He knew all about YEC and he knew all about geology, and the two just did not seem to fit together. Of course now I know that Lyell worked his way though all of that back at the time of Darwin. In fact some people consider Lyell to be the father of Geology. Even though he was a Creationist all of his life. Lyell and Darwin were very close friends, even though there is a lot that they did not agree on.
 
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CabVet

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CabVet

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Could you please provide a source for this statistic.

Many sources and a summary of polls here:

Level of support for evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And here:

http://www.evolutionfaq.com/faq/isnt-it-true-most-scientists-dont-believe-evolution

And here:

Of the scientists and engineers in the United States, only about 5% are creationists, according to a 1991 Gallup poll (Robinson 1995, Witham 1997). However, this number includes those working in fields not related to life origins (such as computer scientists, mechanical engineers, etc.). Taking into account only those working in the relevant fields of earth and life sciences, there are about 480,000 scientists, but only about 700 believe in "creation-science" or consider it a valid theory (Robinson 1995). This means that less than 0.15 percent of relevant scientists believe in creationism. And that is just in the United States, which has more creationists than any other industrialized country. In other countries, the number of relevant scientists who accept creationism drops to less than one tenth of 1 percent.
 
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Jamin4422

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You sure need to get a life and stop spreading falsehoods.
My normal response would be to say: Name ONE. But of course your just trying to accure me of what your guilty of. So I will ignore your comment. When are you people going to learn that God ONLY gives it to you to examine your own heart. He does not give us the ability to examine the heart of others. That is why to the pure all seems to be pure.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Titus 1:15(NKJV)[/FONT]

15 To the pure all things are pure,
but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure;
but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

 
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Jamin4422

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Of the scientists and engineers in the United States, only about 5% are creationists, according to a 1991 Gallup poll
Source talk origin and skeptics dot com imagine that.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 2 pet 3 3

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]8[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]9[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.[/FONT]
 
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CabVet

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My normal response would be to say: Name ONE.

My answer is to name one:

Right a survery taken by skeptics dot com of 158 research biologists.
I think we both need to get a life and quit playing here in the sandbox.
Just how many items do you still need to check off on that prat list of yours?
 
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