The best evidence for Creationism

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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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My point is that you choose what you will believe and not believe. Have you ever seen these transitional fossils personally? Have you ever seen "A new species of mosquito, isolated in London's Underground, speciated from Culex pipiens." Of course, not.. and you won't. These things are never searched out or verified by people but they believe them anyway. I searched and can only find blogs on the mosquito FAQ, a general statement on the site you gave me to read, all seem to be atheistic in viewpoint. I didn't find any EVIDENCE that it is true.

Really? Because just plugging "culex pipiens speciation" into Google scholar provided a bunch of hits including this abstract from 1999?
Heredity - Abstract of article: Culex pipiens in London Underground tunnels: differentiation between surface and subterranean populations

I even found one site that didn't seem to be a creationist in nature that said there was a mistake inspeciation FAQ of talkorigins.org.
Re: A mistake in the speciation FAQ of talkorigins.org ?

That's a newsgroup posting. Who posted the message and was there any response to it?
 
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USincognito

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the studies of hyperconcentrated sedimentation from transgressing waters through levy breaches during Katrina,

What does mud sedimentation after a levy breach in a part of New Orleans have to do with geology? And how would it provide evidence for a world wide flood?

Grand Canyon,

Really? Big fan of Austin and Baumgardener are you?

marine and terrestrial plant fossils found together,

Can't wait to see the examples.

polystrate plants,

You mean the ones that are in mutliple deposited layers of mud, but are not actually in different strata? Or would these be tree trunks akin to the "polystrate telephone poles" found in the Philippenes after Mt. Pinatubo erupted?

the movement of the island of Japan from a short duration earthquake,

At least that's somewhat related to geology, but is evidence for plate tectonics, so I don't know how it's supposed to provide evidence for a world wide flood.

and what aspect of genetics might you like to discuss?

The lack of a genetic bottleneck down to 2 or 7 or 8 individuals in every terrestrial species on earth about 4,500 years ago would be a nice place to start.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I suppose it depends upon what you mean by "real scientific journals"
Basically, a journal which publishes papers after subjecting them to peer review, and has the goal of being critically and impartial. By their very definition, these Creationist 'journals' aren't peer-reviewed, as they don't subject the papers to review from their peers (despite the 'peer-reviewed' moniker).

and whether you have any criticisms of their peer review process.
Certainly, though not as many as you, I'd wager.

The criticism is based upon their world view. When you read their articles, they acknowledge the world view and deal with the FACTS and EVIDENCE.
Allegedly.

I will acknowledge that since the 70s the anti-Creationists have gotten more subtle and less honest about their biases and rejections of the evidence. Do a search for Jenkins, Fischbach and Sturrock on dating issues. The decay "constants" are not so constant, but none of the anti-Creationists want to acknowledge the impications of that.
On the contrary, the implications of variable decay rates have massive consequences for particles physics - if atoms decayed at different rates in the past, then modern theories of physics simply wouldn't work. Moreover, if radiometric dating had this flaw that made it unreliable in the distant past, don't you think it's just a bit of a coincidence that all the various, mechanically independent dating techniques (ice-core samples, dendochronology, radiometrics, etc), when applied properly (e.g., taking into account the reservoir effect), give the same dates, all the way back through history?

What evidence do you want to actually discuss -- the studies of hyperconcentrated sedimentation from transgressing waters through levy breaches during Katrina, Grand Canyon, marine and terrestrial plant fossils found together, polystrate plants, the movement of the island of Japan from a short duration earthquake, and what aspect of genetics might you like to discuss?
I'm a physicist, so I'd be most at home there, though I'm happy to go as far afield as you wish.

So, tell me, what do you know about radiometric dating? Do you know what determines decay constants, and what would be the repercussion if they were variable?

World wide floods where one family survived? In 200 narratives from different cultures here are the stats.
Is there a favored family? 88% [/font]
Were they forewarned? 66% [/font]
Is flood due to wickedness of man? 66% [/font]
Is catastrophe only a flood? 95% [/font]
Was flood global? 95% [/font]
Is survival due to a boat? 70% [/font]
Were animals also saved? 67% [/font]
Did animals play any part? 73% [/font]
Did survivors land on a mountain? 57% [/font]
Was the geography local? 82% [/font]
Were birds sent out? 35% [/font]
Was the rainbow mentioned? 7% [/font]
Did survivors offer a sacrifice? 13% [/font]
Were specifically eight persons saved? 9% [/font]
So, 82% of cultures believed the geography was local. Does that mean that Noah lived in the Middle-East, Asia, and America, all at once?

Moreover, comparative anthropology throws up all sorts of cultural correlations. How many cultures have polytheisms? How many polytheisms have deities of fertility? How many polytheisms have deities of fertility who bear human children?

I mean, it couldn't be that love is something universal to humans. Just like how floods only ever happen in the Middle-East.

What is your evidence for "continual occupation" before about 5000 years ago? The Chinese continuously numbered calendar -- a little over 4700 years. I think that is the longest.
The most ancient and continuously inhabited places on Earth include Damascus (9000 BCE; source), Byblos (at least 5000 BCE; source) Jericho (its walls alone date to at least 6800 BCE; source), Ghor (5000 BCE; source)... not only do these places predate the flood, most predate the creation of the world!
 
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Elendur

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My point is that you choose what you will believe and not believe. Have you ever seen these transitional fossils personally? Have you ever seen "A new species of mosquito, isolated in London's Underground, speciated from Culex pipiens." Of course, not.. and you won't. These things are never searched out or verified by people but they believe them anyway. I searched and can only find blogs on the mosquito FAQ, a general statement on the site you gave me to read, all seem to be atheistic in viewpoint. I didn't find any EVIDENCE that it is true. I even found one site that didn't seem to be a creationist in nature that said there was a mistake inspeciation FAQ of talkorigins.org.
Re: A mistake in the speciation FAQ of talkorigins.org ?

Yet, you seem to believe them. I could give you many evidences of a supernatural God involved in many peoples lives supernaturally but you would have to want to believe them.
Oh, you found evidence, you just want it to be forged.
I have seen transitional fossils for myself, not this one in particular though, and don't see any problem with not seeing all fossils by myself. If I would be that untrusting and question literally everything, requiring me to study it myself, I would have to spend more than my life to do so. I am not prepared to do that, I want to study things closer to my interest. Peer review is the best way I know of, feel free to come up with something better.

Also, nice way to ignore the rest.
 
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Loudmouth

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Neither have they seen nor can they see in the lab one species evolving from one form to another and yet they believe in it.

Yeah, we do. We have wolves evolving into chihuahuas, as one example. Great Danes and chihuahuas share a common ancestor and now they are no longer able to interbreed because of the forms they have evolved.
 
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mathetes123

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Yeah, we do. We have wolves evolving into chihuahuas, as one example. Great Danes and chihuahuas share a common ancestor and now they are no longer able to interbreed because of the forms they have evolved.

The dog is still a dog. Noone is questioning micro-evolution, which is variations within created kinds. The issue is with macro-evolution, which is a change from one created kind to another.
 
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mathetes123

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[/color]

The "local geography" should've raised an interesting flag -- oddly enough, every culture is adamant that only their people survived. What does that tell you?

It tells you they are descendents of the original family that survived.
 
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Elendur

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The dog is still a dog. Noone is questioning micro-evolution, which is variations within created kinds. The issue is with macro-evolution, which is a change from one created kind to another.
Would you say a wolf is different from a dog?
 
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Guy1

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The dog is still a dog. Noone is questioning micro-evolution, which is variations within created kinds.

That's the fun of nested hierarchies. No matter how long anything evolves, it's still part of its ancestral tree. No matter how long bacteria evolve, they'll always be prokaryotes; no matter how long dogs evolve, they'll still be a subset of wolves; and no matter how long humans evolve, they're still a subset of apes (which themselves are a subset of monkeys).
 
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Loudmouth

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The dog is still a dog.

Humans and chimps are still apes, and the common ancestor of humans and chimps was an ape. An ape is still an ape.

Humans and bears are still mammals, and the common ancestor of humans and bears was a mammal. A mammal is still a mammal.

Humans and trout are still jawed vertebrates, and the common ancestor of trout and humans was a jawed vertebate. A jawed vertebrate is still a jawed vertebrate.

So I guess all of these are examples of microevolution as well? Is that the depth of creationist taxonomy? If I can use the same word to describe each grou then it is microevolution?

The issue is with macro-evolution, which is a change from one created kind to another.

What created kinds?
 
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Loudmouth

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It tells you they are descendents of the original family that survived.

Then why are the stories so different? Why do we have cultures that are uninterrupted by this supposed global flood? Why is there no interruptions in the tree ring, lake varve, and ice layer records during this time?
 
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mathetes123

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Then why are the stories so different? Why do we have cultures that are uninterrupted by this supposed global flood? Why is there no interruptions in the tree ring, lake varve, and ice layer records during this time?

Why is there a fossil record all over the world?
 
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Inan3

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Yeah, we do. We have wolves evolving into chihuahuas, as one example. Great Danes and chihuahuas share a common ancestor and now they are no longer able to interbreed because of the forms they have evolved.

Okay, I'll bite...gimme the link!!
 
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Inan3

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Oh, you found evidence, you just want it to be forged.
I have seen transitional fossils for myself, not this one in particular though, and don't see any problem with not seeing all fossils by myself. If I would be that untrusting and question literally everything, requiring me to study it myself, I would have to spend more than my life to do so. I am not prepared to do that, I want to study things closer to my interest. Peer review is the best way I know of, feel free to come up with something better.

Also, nice way to ignore the rest.

This is really quite laughable. It's funny how convenient it is to not HAVE to see things on the side you WANT to believe in but you HAVE to see things on the side you don't want to believe in. That's okay, of course, that's your right as a human being.
 
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Loudmouth

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Okay, I'll bite...gimme the link!!

"When portions of mitochondrial DNA from wolves and domestic dogs was sequenced, the control region of wolves and dogs was demonstrated to be highly polymorphic. The distribution of wolf haplotypes displayed geographic specificity, with most localities containing haplotypes unique to a particular region. Sequence diversity amongst dogs was similar. However, mitochondrial haplotype diversity in dogs could not be partitioned according to breed. Many breeds shared sequences with other breeds. No dog sequence differed from any wolf sequence by more than 12 substitutions, whereas dog differed from coyotes and jackals by at least 20 substitutions and 2 insertions. This supported a wolf ancestry for dogs.
However, because mitochondrial DNA is maternally inherited, interbreeding between female dogs and male coyotes or jackals would not be detected. Therefore, a more limited study of nuclear DNA was also carried out. This also supported the conclusion that the wolf was the ancestor of the domestic dog."

The Origins of the Domestic Dog | Archaeozoology

There are two references to peer reviewed articles at the bottom of the article if you are interested in learning more.
 
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