The Arminian View

[Geralt]

My God doesnt use fishing rods of preemptive grace waiting for a bite, but nets of irresitable grace and pulls all his elect.

So Geralt, have you bitten yet, or have you yet to see the bait?

 

[EmSw]

My God doesnt use fishing rods of preemptive grace waiting for a bite, but nets of irresitable grace and pulls all his elect.

And then throws away the bad, that is, the wicked 'elect'.

Matthew 13
47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind,
48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,

 

[Geralt]

Ah no this is my story and you won't be able to hijack it this time to change it to your own. You need to ask questions if you want to hear the rest of the story..that is if you can lower your prejudice for awhile.

And then throws away the bad, that is, the wicked 'elect'.

Matthew 13
47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind,
48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,

 

[EmSw]

Ah no this is my story and you won't be able to hijack it this time to change it to your own. You need to ask questions if you want to hear the rest of the story..that is if you can lower your prejudice for awhile.

You are quite correct Geralt, this IS YOUR STORY. I am not the one hijacking it, the truth of God's truth does just fine. I gave you the rest of the story from God's word.

THE BAD, THAT IS, WICKED ELECT ARE THROWN AWAY!!!

 

[sdowney717]

And then throws away the bad, that is, the wicked 'elect'.

Matthew 13
47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind,
48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away.
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,

This parable comes right after Jesus explains the tares and the wheat which is clearly one showing God's election at work.

Curious why your saying the elect are cast into the furnace? That dos not fit the story at all.
This is describing the end, not the planting of the good seed by Christ in God's field, the world at the beginning.
All should understand that the good fish that are saved are clearly God's wheat, and the bad fish thrown away, Satan's tares.
EVERYONE will be sorted out as to what manner of creature they were.

47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

 

[EmSw]

This parable comes right after Jesus explains the tares and the wheat which is clearly one showing God's election at work.

Why do you insert election here? Do you feel the need to correct and add to Jesus' parable?

Curious why your saying the elect are cast into the furnace? That dos not fit the story at all.

It's the bad and wicked elect. Read the story.

This is describing the end, not the planting of the good seed by Christ in God's field, the world at the beginning.
All should understand that the good fish that are saved are clearly God's wheat, and the bad fish thrown away, Satan's tares.
EVERYONE will be sorted out as to what manner of creature they were.

I responded to someone's post which said only the elect are gathered into the net. So, are you saying the wicked are drawn also? Well, well, well, you all just can't make up your minds. You make the Bible say whatever you all want.

Since you didn't choose to be wheat, you just may be a tare; you may the bad fish. Remember, the tares look just like wheat, so you may be deceiving all of us into thinking you are wheat. How will you convince us are the wheat, when not even you know? Remember, you are playing the predestination lottery. If your number's not chosen, it makes no difference what you tell us. Of course, if you're not chosen, you can play the role of a tare, and look like the chosen.

 

[sdowney717]

Why do you insert election here? Do you feel the need to correct and add to Jesus' parable?



It's the bad and wicked elect. Read the story.



I responded to someone's post which said only the elect are gathered into the net. So, are you saying the wicked are drawn also? Well, well, well, you all just can't make up your minds. You make the Bible say whatever you all want.

Since you didn't choose to be wheat, you just may be a tare; you may the bad fish. Remember, the tares look just like wheat, so you may be deceiving all of us into thinking you are wheat. How will you convince us are the wheat, when not even you know? Remember, you are playing the predestination lottery. If your number's not chosen, it makes no difference what you tell us. Of course, if you're not chosen, you can play the role of a tare, and look like the chosen.

.

Obviously the wicked are drawn into His net, but only to be burned. Just as Jesus tells in the parable. I don't know why you disagree and aso contrary.

 

[sdowney717]

As far as what Jesus means to be good, here John tells us what it means to be good, good is good fruit.
So the bad fish are not bearing any good fruit, I suppose you can also think of them as inedible and rotten to the core, just like the unregenerate. Rotten and stinky and disgusting and spiritually filthy, unclean.
Mat 3:10

And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

[EmSw]

.

Obviously the wicked are drawn into His net, but only to be burned. Just as Jesus tells in the parable. I don't know why you disagree and aso contrary.

Are there wicked elect?

 

[Geralt]

Well as always your bitter heart ends all good conversations. Its all yours buddy.

You are quite correct Geralt, this IS YOUR STORY. I am not the one hijacking it, the truth of God's truth does just fine. I gave you the rest of the story from God's word.

THE BAD, THAT IS, WICKED ELECT ARE THROWN AWAY!!!

 

[EmSw]

Well as always your bitter heart ends all good conversations. Its all yours buddy.

See you tomorrow.

 

[OzSpen]

My God doesnt use fishing rods of preemptive grace waiting for a bite, but nets of irresitable grace and pulls all his elect.

So he uses the totalitarian decree of unconditional election and irresistible grace? He forces people into the kingdom. That's what TULIP does.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

90% Calvinist here

not good to be 100% in any man's camp.

M-Bob

 

[OzSpen]

90% Calvinist here

not good to be 100% in any man's camp.

M-Bob

From where did you get that statistic that 90% of the people on this forum are Calvinists? It does seem to be a high percentage.

However, one person with IT nous, as he was leaving CF.com, wrote that there are people on this site with multiple identities. This could mean that a handful of Calvinists have many names. It is sad if that kind of thing is happening.

He left this forum because of this.

Oz

 

[Geralt]

totalitarian -only if people are unwilling.

but then again people are willing by nature if the grac of God calls them.

the argument of forcing 'unwilling' people is a non-reality, it is only a point of argument.

in fact unregenerate people dont care at all about God, salvation and all things holy.

So he uses the totalitarian decree of unconditional election and irresistible grace? He forces people into the kingdom. That's what TULIP does.

 

[OzSpen]

totalitarian -only if people are unwilling.

but then again people are willing by nature if the grac of God calls them.

the argument of forcing 'unwilling' people is a non-reality, it is only a point of argument.

in fact unregenerate people dont care at all about God, salvation and all things holy.

That's not what 'unconditional' in election means.

That's not what 'irresistible' in grace means.

So are you saying that the irresistible cancels any concept of unwillingness? The Merriam-Webster dictionary (s v irresistible) gives the meaning of irresistible as, 'impossible to resist especially because of strength or attractiveness'.

'Impossible to resist' seems closer to totalitarian decree.

Oz

 

[tulipbee]

90% Calvinist here

not good to be 100% in any man's camp.

M-Bob

90% bible?

 

[mark kennedy]

I am curious what verses Arminians (both Wesleyan and Classical) use to defend their soteriological views.

I've tried looking this up on other sites, but the overwhelming majority seem to have a Calvinist bent, so I thought I'd ask here.

Particularly, what verses are cited as evidence for conditional election and how would you refute unconditional election?

What about resistible grace?

What about the doctrine of Holiness (a believer can eventually arrive at a state where he no longer sins while still alive ). I know it probably isn't that popular among Arminians, but those who do believe it, why?

What led you to Arminianism as opposed to Calvinism or Molinism?

Calvinists teaches a strict eternal security, I've heard it said that once in Christ you can no more be cast out then Christ can be cast out of the Trinity. There are also Calvinists who teach that the book of life that is opened up at the end of the age was written before the world was created. Calvinists would be evangelical, the Word churches they used to like to refer to them. The Armenians are the Baptists, a bare bones minimalist theology teaching what can be described as once saved always saved. Wesleyan theology in the Methodist or Pentecostal traditions seem to be more ambiquise. Molinism has never interested me much, it seems esoteric and semantical but I have a much simpler way of looking at this. The righteousness of God in Christ has never changed because God never changes. God knew before he made the world what it meant to be saved, you must be the righteousness of God in Christ. We certainly have a choice with regards to whether or not we want to receive it but it's all or none.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Calvinists teaches a strict eternal security, I've heard it said that once in Christ you can no more be cast out then Christ can be cast out of the Trinity. There are also Calvinists who teach that the book of life that is opened up at the end of the age was written before the world was created. Calvinists would be evangelical, the Word churches they used to like to refer to them. The Armenians are the Baptists, a bare bones minimalist theology teaching what can be described as once saved always saved. Wesleyan theology in the Methodist or Pentecostal traditions seem to be more ambiquise. Molinism has never interested me much, it seems esoteric and semantical but I have a much simpler way of looking at this. The righteousness of God in Christ has never changed because God never changes. God knew before he made the world what it meant to be saved, you must be the righteousness of God in Christ. We certainly have a choice with regards to whether or not we want to receive it but it's all or none.

I see both sides of the debate. I lean Calvinist, but I want to hear the Arminian side.

As for Baptists, they can go in either direction. After all, there are Reformed Baptists.

Also Armenians aren't Baptist, they're Orthodox.

 

[mark kennedy]

I see both sides of the debate. I lean Calvinist, but I want to hear the Arminian side.

As for Baptists, they can go in either direction. After all, there are Reformed Baptists.

Also Armenians aren't Baptist, they're Orthodox.

Thats true, Armenians aren't Baptist but largely the theology of Baptists is Armenian. Armenian theology is synonymous with free will and the real issue for most Calvinists is that it's entirely too permissive. We must never forget that God requires perfection ultimately but in the struggle against the old nature God realizes we are weak in our natural selves. The grace that saves is never content to leave you in a wretched condition where you are still being controlled by impulses that are carnal and opposed to the purposes of God. We know what we are saved from, sometimes it's not so easy to accept what we are saved for.

I like Calvinism, their great work in doctrine and teaching the whole testimony of Scripture has been a great help to me, especially then bent of an evangelical nature. Sometimes I get nervous around predestination and irresistible grace, I'm with them on God's sovereign authority but free will is inescapable. The search for balance here can be a difficult one.

Grace and peace,
Mark