The 144,000

[ByTheSpirit]

If the 144,000 of Revelation are literal Jews then why are the 12 tribes listed not of the original twelve?
Revelation 7:4-8
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Can you spot the difference?

The tribe of Joseph... There is no tribe of Joseph, a house of Joseph (constituting the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh), but no singular tribe.

This list is inconclusive Old Covenant speaking because...

It is neither an accurate list of the 12 occupying tribes of the Holy Land, those were:

Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Isaachar, Zebulun, Ephraim, Manasseh, Benjamin, Dan, Asher, Gad, Naphtali... The tribe of Levi had no physical inheritance in the Holy Land remember...

Nor is the list above an accurate list of the literal 12 sons of Jacob, because Dan is missing from the list and Manasseh was merely a grandson of Jacob *and presumably substituted in this list in Dan's place*

So if this is to mean literal Jews, why such a difference? Not saying the Bible is contradicting itself, don't misunderstand me. I'm asking because most say this is signifying a literal sealing of literal Jews and not symbolic of believers.

Maybe this verse has something to do with this:

Romans 9:6-8
6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”b 8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Galatians 3:6-14
6So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”c

7Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”d 9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”e 11Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”f 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”g 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”h 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Paul says those who believe are the real children of Abraham (Jews), not those of physical descent....

So perhaps this list is symbolic of real believers, not physical Jews...

 

[ebedmelech]

If the 144,000 of Revelation are literal Jews then why are the 12 tribes listed not of the original twelve?
Revelation 7:4-8
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Can you spot the discrepancy?

The tribe of Joseph... There is no tribe of Joseph, a house of Joseph (constituting the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh), but no singular tribe.

I wouldn't call this a discrepancy! God made the list and the angel gave the list to John, so there is no discrepancy!!!

The proper question would be, why did God do this and what does it mean?

I agree that the true descendants are all who have the faith of Abraham...THEY ARE THE 144,000 which is a number representing all the redeemed of God.

There will be all kinds of ideas as to why the 12 tribes are different.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I wouldn't call this a discrepancy! God made the list and the angel gave the list to John, so there is no discrepancy!!!

The proper question would be, why did God do this and what does it mean?

I agree that the true descendants are all who have the faith of Abraham...THEY ARE THE 144,000 which is a number representing all the redeemed of God.

There will be all kinds of ideas as to why the 12 tribes are different.

I didn't mean discrepancy as in contradiction.... but thanks for showing me it could be interpretted as such. I meant it only as in why are they different... I will change it, thanks!

 

[interpreter]

The 144,000 are the 144,000 single male Jews who escaped the great tribulation of WW II by fleeing to the Holy Land. That's how many were available to the new Israeli military in 1948. 100,000 joined the IDF, while 44,000 were conscientious objectors (Ultra-Orthodox Jews).

 

[PhillipLaSpino]

This may help to explain the differance.

As you wrote, the 12 Tribes mentioned in Rev.7, are different than those mentioned in Ezekiel; why? The 12 tribes in Rev.7 are those who have received God’s end time blessing, the blessing promised to Abraham and his seed.

These 12 in Revelation have been hand picked by the Lord to confirm the gospel message to a condemned world during the 7 years of tribulation. They representing the whole house of Israel.

Dan has been replaced by Manasses because of the sin of idolatry.

Now there are12 tribes mentioned in Ezekiel 48 that will inherit the Land when the kingdom is restored to Israel, this after the 7 years of tribulation. They are,

Dan, Asher, Nabhtali, Manasses, Gad, Ephraim, Reuben, Judah, Benjamin, Simeon, Issachar, Zebulon. The Levites went astray, Ez.11, therefore losing their inheritance.

Manasseh, Joseph son has been given Joseph’s share of the land inheritance because Joseph remained in Egypt when Israel left, and as mentioned before, Dan lost his inheritance because of the sin of idolatry.

Phil LaSpino

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I have heard the part about Dan before, but always thought all the tribes fell into idolatry and that's why the kingdom's were overthrown...

As far as Joseph staying in Egypt when Israel left, I didn't know that was in the Bible. Israel died in Egypt and was buried in Canaan. Joseph died in Egypt and when Moses led the Israelites out during the Exodus took Joseph's remains with them.

 

[miamited]

Hi YES,

I don't know why the tribes are listed as they are, but neither do I find the passage in Revelation making any inference that the 12 tribes are the 'original' twelve tribes. We find in the books of Numbers and Joshua that Joseph was mentioned several times as a 'tribe' of Israel.

However, why this would somehow infer that the 12 tribes are not Jews confuses me. Joseph, and his descendents, was a Jew.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[PhillipLaSpino]

Yahweh;

All goes back to the unconditional covenant God make with Abram. There was a land covenant, and there was a spiritual blessing to Abram and his seed. Concerning the spiritual blessing, Dan failed.

In 1 K.12:25-33, we read of the tribe of Dan setting up a golden calf in the land, also putting high places of worship, throughout Israel.

1 Kings 12:30-31, "This thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan. And he (tribe of Dan) made an house of high places, and made priest of the lowest of the people, which were not the sons of Levi."

Scripture speaks of the tribe of Dan in the following way,

Gen.49:17, "Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward."

Jeremiah 8:16, "The snorting of his horses was heard from Dan: the whole land trembled at the sound of neighing of his strong ones; for they are come, and have devoured the land, and all that is in it; the city, and those that swell therein."

Judges 18:30, "The children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land."

The tribe of Dan has lost God's blessing, this is why they are not mentioned in Revelation to receive the Father's mark in their forehead.

Yet the tribe of Dan during the 1000 year reign of Christ will have their share in the land covenant because that was promised to him, Ezek.48; and God will not break his promises.

Yes Joseph died in Egypt, and was not a part of the Jewish Exodus from Egypt; also, he did not enter the Promised land alive when the land was divided among the 12 tribes. Joseph's share of the land went to Manasseh, Joseph's eldest son.

Hope that helps: All I can say is, "have faith, God know's what He's doing!"
Phil LaSpino

 

[ByTheSpirit]

You're right Philip, I try not to grapple to much over this stuff as God definitely knows what is going on and doesn't need my help (or any of ours) to understand it. I'm just curious that's all.

 

[Zadok7000]

See Judges 18 for Dan's idol worship. They are also not in the 1 Chronicles listing of the tribes. As an aside, remember only the southern kingdom (house of Judah) was ever referred to as Jews. The house of Israel (10 northern tribes) were never called Jews and are not today. So yes I believe the 144,000 are literal bloodline people - not the only to be saved in the tribulation of course...

 

[John S]

If the 144,000 of Revelation are literal Jews then why are the 12 tribes listed not of the original twelve?
Revelation 7:4-8
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Can you spot the difference?

The tribe of Joseph... There is no tribe of Joseph, a house of Joseph (constituting the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh), but no singular tribe.

This list is inconclusive Old Covenant speaking because...

It is neither an accurate list of the 12 occupying tribes of the Holy Land, those were:

Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Isaachar, Zebulun, Ephraim, Manasseh, Benjamin, Dan, Asher, Gad, Naphtali... The tribe of Levi had no physical inheritance in the Holy Land remember...

Nor is the list above an accurate list of the literal 12 sons of Jacob, because Dan is missing from the list and Manasseh was merely a grandson of Jacob *and presumably substituted in this list in Dan's place*

So if this is to mean literal Jews, why such a difference? Not saying the Bible is contradicting itself, don't misunderstand me. I'm asking because most say this is signifying a literal sealing of literal Jews and not symbolic of believers.

Maybe this verse has something to do with this:

Romans 9:6-8
6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”b 8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Galatians 3:6-14
6So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”c

7Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”d 9So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”e 11Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”f 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”g 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”h 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Paul says those who believe are the real children of Abraham (Jews), not those of physical descent....

So perhaps this list is symbolic of real believers, not physical Jews...

To understand the 144,000 members of the Elect, you must understand Genesis 49 and Jacob's prophecies concerning his sons. This Chapter is NOT the incomprehensible rantings of an old man on his deathbed. They are the foundation of Biblical prophecy because they were inspired by God.
Because Joseph was loyal to God while he was in Egypt, Joseph and his 2 sons, whom Jacob adopted as his own, would receive the best rewards. They would be strong, wealthy nations. They would NEVER be conquered.
Zabulon would be a seafaring people.
Judah would be the ONLY Tribe to maintain its identity.
Dan is mentioned in Genesis but is not mentioned in Revelations. In fact, Jacob admonished Dan, calling him a viper. The question is this. Why would Dan not be included as a member of the Elect? The answer is because the antichrist would come from Dan.
Much later, under David and Solomon, the Kingdom of Israel was a strong nation. Later, it split into 2 nations. The Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel. Israel was conquered by the Assyrians and were NEVER allowed to return. They have become known as the 10 Lost Tribes. They were lost to history but NOT to God. He KNOWS where they are. They exist today.
In my opinion, the Tribes of Joseph make up strong countries that have NEVER been conquered - Great Britain and her "children" - Canada, Australia, etc. and the United States.
Zabulon is Spain, Portugal and her "children" - Central and South America, etc.
Judah, who would NEVER lose its identity, is the Jewish people.
The Roman Empire had the greatest Judicial system that the world had ever seen. It was later copied by Great Britain and the U.S. Dan is Italy. The antichrist will come from Italy, and maybe from the city of Rome itself.
Reuben, who will never be first, MIGHT be Ireland.

The 144,000 will be made up of first born males who NEVER lie and who have NEVER had sexual relations. They are the Elect. Since they will chosen by God himself and NOT by human beings, they will make up the one TRUE Church of Jesus Christ. The other, man made denominations are but temporary figments of man's imagination.
There will ONLY be 12,000 Jews that make up the Elect. The rest will be Christian.