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Telling the Truth About Charles Finney

Discussion in 'Christian History' started by Benefactor, Sep 14, 2009.

  1. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Word games.

    You mean to tell me that "secure" does not mean the same thing today as it did in 1851 when Finney wrote his Systematic Theology?

    Word games.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  2. archierieus

    archierieus Craftsman Supporter

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    As for the denoted or connoted meaning, I don't know, would need to check. As for what the writer intended, I would need to read the entire treatise. Accuracy is the issue here.
     
  3. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Accuracy?!? :scratch:

    Let me quote it again for you:

    In plain language, Christ's death was not able to purchase our justification or eternal salvation.

    Acording to Finney:

    The only way to eternal life is to have faith in God, consecrate yourself to Him, and perseverance is a condition not of this time, but of our ultimate acceptance and salvation before God.

    Charles Finney denies that Jesus, bearing our sins upon Himself, could not pay our penalty:

    The scriptures plainly tell us that we are "purchased with his own blood." -Acts 20:28 (KJV)

    Charles Finney denies all this. As Ripley says: "Believe it or Not" it makes no difference to me.

    But I refuse to hold up as a "godly man" and one who "with a heart and passion kin to that of Paul the apostle" when he so clearly denies the doctrines of the scriptures.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
  4. archierieus

    archierieus Craftsman Supporter

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    Well, like I said before, I would need to see the entire document. At any rate, not gonna lose any sleep over this one, and gotta head off to bed. Without knowing anything firsthand about the man's teachings, all I can say is that if Billy Graham spoke favorably about him, then that says a lot. And I KNOW Billy Graham believes in salvation by grace and justification. Anyhow, done for the night.
     
  5. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    And I'll repeat what I said 3 pages ago.

    The Catholic Church approved of the Nazi movement of the 1930's, and, they provided escapes for Nazi war criminals.

    Aarons and Loftus, 1992, p. xii.

    Source

    Does that mean what they did was right?

    Now don't go getting your dandruf up, what I mean by the above statement does not reflect upon Catholicism as a whole. Rather, there were certain Bishops, in control of the Catholic Churches in Germany at the time of the Nazi movement who gave a nod to Nazism in the 1930's.

    Source

    Source


    Billy Graham giving approval of Finney automatically makes him right?

    Theodore Rosevelt illegally imprisoned German Americans and Japaneese Americans during WW2 based solely on the notion that although they were Americans, because they had ties to Japan or Germany, they were "high risk" citizens. And Congress backed him. Even though many were born in America, Americans by birth!

    Did that make it right?

    You approve of a man who denies of the Atonement as provided by Christ, but you reject a man who preached it (John Calvin)? :scratch:

    Strange world we live in.

    Pelagianism was attacked in the Council of Diospolis and condemned in 418 at the Council of Carthage. These condemnations were ratified at the Council of Ephesus in 431.

    This man teaches a form of Pelagianism and he is hearlded as a "godly man" and "a man akin to the Apostle Paul".

    This is indeed a strange world we live in.

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2009
  6. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    Lest we forget, Charles Finney also taught:

    Finney said sinners must not wait for regeneration, they must upon hearing the word, race down the asle and repent.

    Finney said that hearing the gospel is enough to regenerate a person.

    Finney said that a person must not wait for divine "onmipotentce" to regenerate them.

    Finney taught that if you wait on the Holy Spirit to regenerate you, that arises out of your own stubbornness and that increases your guilt.

    Yet scriptures represent "regeneration" as a work of the Holy Spirit. (Titus 3:5)

    Scriptures, Jesus (the God-man) taught that one of the works of the Holy Spirit was to convict the world of sin. (cf. John 16:8)

    If you do not wait upon the Holy Spirit to convict you of your sins, and you go and repent, is it really repentance?

    No!

    That kind of repentance is no better than the seed which fell "by the way side". (cf. Mt. 13:4)

    That kind of repentance is no better than the seed which fell on "stoney ground". (cf. Mt. 13:5-6)

    That kind of repentance is no better than the seed which fell "among the thorns". (Mt. 13:7)

    If the goodness of God don't lead you to repentance (cf. Rom. 2:4) is it really repentance?

    No!

    "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation" -2 Cor. 7:10 (KJV)

    Yet Finney denies this!

    If I witness to and led a person to God, have I regenerated that person?

    No!

    But accroding to Finney, "men regenerate each other."

    I have.

    Even regarding the very notion of regeneration, Charles Finney denies and states that:

    Yea...right.

    A "godly man" who is "akin to the Apostle Paul".

    God Bless

    Till all are one.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2009
  7. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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    A final thought.

    It is truly sad that people have forgotten the promises of Christ and what the scriptures say.

    Charles Finney said:

    Charles Finney, Systematic Theology, Lecture 35, Extent of Atonement

    Source

    What a sad day it is when people do not understand what a "surety" is.

    According to the Theological Dictionary of the New Testamant:

    The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, Editor, Geoffery W. Bromiley, Translator, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1964, Vol. II, "egguoV", p. 329, Herbert Preisker, Commenting.

    Jesus Christ, by way of His atonement, death, burial, resurrection, and ascention, stands as our "surety", our "co-signer" (for lack of better words), our "Guarantor". If the promises of God, eternal life through Jesus shed blood, His atonement for sin, should fail, as the "Guarantor", our "surety", Jesus would have to go to the Lake of Fire and suffer in our stead.

    This very idea, is confirmed by John Gill in his commentary on Hebrews 7:22:

    Source

    That is what surety means. Jesus is our "surety", He has secured for us, atonement, redemption, and reconcilation by His death on the cross for us!

    Praise God!

    Halleluiah!

    Excuse me while get happy!

    You may not agree with John Gill, but by godffrey, that is what it is!

    From Barnes Notes on the NT, we read:


    Source


    Praise God He has secured for us, atonement, redemption, and reconcilation by His death on the cross for us!​

    Thank you Jesus!​

    Thank you God!​

    God Bless​

    Till all are one.​
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2009
  8. archierieus

    archierieus Craftsman Supporter

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    Hmmmm, now this seems to be headed a somewhat different direction. The TDNT does not appear to support what you have been saying about the nature of the atonement. Jobn Gill certainly does, but then again, he is known as a High Calvinist expositor. This then raises significant questions about the assertions which have been made. Perhaps it is time to take a careful look at this question. What was the nature of Christ's atonement? Time to start a separate thread, apart from any questions about Charles Finney.
     
  9. DeaconDean

    DeaconDean γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον

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  10. AndOne

    AndOne Formerly known as Behe's Boy

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    I also love Billy Graham and was blessed to see many people come to faith at one of his crusades many years ago - I also hold him in high regard.

    But I don't understand why he is being looked to as the final authority on this or any issue. It is quite possible that Graham didn't have all the facts in regards to Finney. In fact that is my sincerist hope - because if he did have all the facts and STILL spoke favorably of Finney then my esteem of Billy Graham will sadly be lessoned. Let's face it - based on what has been presented here in regards to Finney's teachings it can honestly be said that he led no one to a saving faith in Christ but to something completely different that is not the gospel.

    Also - Graham taught the security of the believer - yet you don't agree on that. So why give credence to what he says about Finney but not this?
     
  11. archierieus

    archierieus Craftsman Supporter

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    I don't know. I do understand that he has a place of honor in the Billy Graham Center. I would expect nothing less than strict integrity from Billy Graham, and suspect that with his international standing and exposure whatever the info about Charles Finney would have been brought to his attention. but that is IMO.

    And that is the key--'what has been presented here.' What has been presented here are snippets from both sides, and I long ago discovered the importance of reading the entire document or treatise. As it is said, there are always two sides. But I really don't feel driven to do so in this case, it is not that big a thing to me personally. I do, however, have an interest in fairplay.

    There are some things taught by a variety of Christian teachers which I do not agree with. There is wide disagreement between Christian teachers themselves on such matters. But God can use them all to accomplish good. I believe God works through a wide variety of teachers and believers, even though their knowledge may not be complete or correct in every detail. God will no doubt continue to guide them to a clearer understanding of Bible truth, whatever the issue may be.
     
  12. AndOne

    AndOne Formerly known as Behe's Boy

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    Fairplay? Could have fooled me. There is enough documentation posted on Finney's erroneous teachings on this thread to fill up a novel. Hardly what I would call snipets. Rather than taking an honest look at them you say the guy is alright because Billy Graham says he's alright.

    So how about Charles Spurgeon - one of the great Calvinist preachers of the 1800's. Billy Graham had a lot of good things to say about him as well. Since Billy Graham endorsed him does he get your nod of approval too?
     
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  13. archierieus

    archierieus Craftsman Supporter

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    To draw small quotes from here and there is not linking to the entire document. If someone were to do that, then it could be studied as a whole.

    Rather than reach a conclusion based on selected quotes, I would reserve judgment until being able to examine the treatise as a whole. But if Billy Graham speaks favorably, that certainly does have some weight IMO.

    Indeed, Spurgeon without doubt had many inspiring and helpful thoughts to share. On these threads, I would raise questions if he or Finney or any other commentator were to be cited as a doctrinal authority or evidence of Bible truth.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
  14. student ad x

    student ad x Senior Contributor

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    MOD HAT ON

    [​IMG]

    Thread moved to Christian History....... from Soteriology

    MOD HAT OFF
     
  15. heymikey80

    heymikey80 Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

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    Well, you'll just have to take that up with your cohorts, because none of you will listen to us. The pathos is fairly obviously that they're posting anti-Calvinists positions, and we're defending against them.

    If you have a problem with allowing for all views, then you'll really need to talk to those who are attacking Calvinism.
     
  16. heymikey80

    heymikey80 Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

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    ... while offending copyrights. Buy yourself a copy. The citation's there.
    But then there's ...
    Or Billy Graham? I think the question you're raising is against your own statement.
     
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  17. czali

    czali Newbie

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    Once saved always saved! His rod.. and His staff, they comfort me!! I may not be perfect but He is, how then does His salvation, in me, fail? I may sometimes fall.. he picks me up.. that bump on my head from that fall takes some time to mend i will admit... But God never fails and will not fail me. I think after reading this thread i will not bother to read finney. thanks Deacon Dean!
     
  18. everready

    everready Guest

    [​IMG]

    Saturday, February 06, 2010
    This Morning's Meditation
    C. H. Spurgeon

    "Praying always."—.

    WHAT multitudes of prayers we have put up from the first moment when we learned to pray. Our first prayer was a prayer for ourselves; we asked that God would have mercy upon us, and blot out our sin. He heard us. But when He had blotted out our sins like a cloud, then we had more prayers for ourselves. We have had to pray for sanctifying grace, for constraining and restraining grace; we have been led to crave for a fresh assurance of faith, for the comfortable application of the promise, for deliverance in the hour of temptation, for help in the time of duty, and for succour in the day of trial. We have been compelled to go to God for our souls, as constant beggars asking for everything. Bear witness, children of God, you have never been able to get anything for your souls elsewhere. All the bread your soul has eaten has come down from heaven, and all the water of which it has drank has flowed from the living rock—Christ Jesus the Lord. Your soul has never grown rich in itself; it has always been a pensioner upon the daily bounty of God; and hence your prayers have ascended to heaven for a range of spiritual mercies all but infinite. Your wants were innumerable, and therefore the supplies have been infinitely great, and your prayers have been as varied as the mercies have been countless. Then have you not cause to say, "I love the Lord, because He hath heard the voice of my supplication"? For as your prayers have been many, so also have been God's answers to them. He has heard you in the day of trouble, has strengthened you, and helped you, even when you dishonoured Him by trembling and doubting at the mercy-seat. Remember this, and let it fill your heart with gratitude to God, who has thus graciously heard your poor weak prayers. "Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all His benefits."
     
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