TE attitude about Genesis

[Willtor]

Can you point me towards them? I would be very inetrested in finding out what they have to say. As I said, in the last 20 years, I must have failed to come across them.

I used to be a YEC.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Can you point me towards them? I would be very inetrested in finding out what they have to say. As I said, in the last 20 years, I must have failed to come across them.

I am a recovering YEC.

Hey, do we get little year pins like in AA?

 

[steen]

Well, I was hoping for a current YEC?

Congratulation both, with the liberation of your minds

 

[Willtor]

Well, I was hoping for a current YEC?

Congratulation both, with the liberation of your minds

I have friends with whom I talk about such things, even now, who are YECs. It's easier when you know the person in another context, and so challenges like, "You are undermining the gospel," turn into honest questions like, "Does that do anything to the gospel?"

 

[IisJustMe]

YEC are not ishowing nterested in exploration or searching for facts, common ground or anything like that. They have 2 interests ony. To "win," and to show strong faith. Righteousness and fear, that's all that drives them. So tell me how a exploratory poll will make a dent in that?

How is it that you refuse to see that those accepting YEC could not have done the same? I used to be an unbeliever, and as such, I believed evolution. I was fascinated by the "science" involved. But when I became a believer, I had to begin questioning what I'd been taught. There is too much circular reasoning, too much "assumed" to be true when the reality is the assumptions don't hold up to emperical reasoning. I respect your viewpoint, but I don't accept the viewpoint. I do not see any way evolution can be true in light of critical examination, much less in light of Scripture. Sorry if that makes me "ignorant" in your eyes, but as it happens, I hold three degrees and I still don't see any alternative to YEC.

 

[steen]

How is it that you refuse to see that those accepting YEC could not have done the same?

I don't. I just don't really see anybody like that.

I used to be an unbeliever, and as such, I believed evolution.

right there I am getting suspicious, because there is nothing that eliminates a believer accepting Evolution. The very premise is blatantly false in my view. It is when I see stuff like that, that I get suspicious that the YEC is bearing false witness. So please reassure me about what you actually mean here.

I was fascinated by the "science" involved. But when I became a believer, I had to begin questioning what I'd been taught.

EVERYBODY should question what they are taught. Always. If you accept the Scientific theory of Evolution with no foundation of knowledge, then you haven't done your homework. Science is about the evidence, not belief.

There is too much circular reasoning, too much "assumed" to be true when the reality is the assumptions don't hold up to emperical reasoning.

What do you mean? Sorry, but now I am getting even MORE suspicious and apprehensive, as this is the stuff I usually see from YEC who want to make claims about science or about a conversion to YEC without actually having a clue what Evolution is. I am not positive about being hoodwinked, so please explain a bit more about what you mean. Sorry to seem so suspicious, but I have been in this situation uncountable times, and the result is nearly always the same.

I respect your viewpoint, but I don't accept the viewpoint.

That's fine. I don't insist that you do.

I do not see any way evolution can be true in light of critical examination, much less in light of Scripture.

Again fine. I have no problem with people having their faith.

Sorry if that makes me "ignorant" in your eyes,

It doesn't.

but as it happens, I hold three degrees and I still don't see any alternative to YEC.

And you have that right. You seem to miss the point, though. It is not the faith of YEC that is a problem to us. It is YEC then proceeding to make false claims about science, accusing everybody else of not being the right kind of Christian etc. THAT'S the problem. If YEC NEVER made a claim about science, then there wouldn't be an issue. If YEC stated that "My faith is that the Earth is 6000 years old and that God created it is 6 days, then that would be fine. It is when the "and the evidence is.." gets tacked on to it that the problems begins. Or when YEC decide that "XYZ is wrong because the science is wrong," especially when it then is clarified that they don't even know the science.

It is not the faith of YEC that is a problem to us. It is the false claims about science.

I hope that makes more sense to you? This is why I am asking for just once a YEC who actually know what they are talking about and is honest and open and actually will either tell me that the evidence doesn't matter because it isn;t an issue of science, or will be honest in debating the science. In the C&E forum, the question about actual evidence for creationism has been raised many dozens of times, and so far with no actual scientific evidence being presented. That gets really old, when YEC continue to insist attacking science.

 

[IisJustMe]

right there I am getting suspicious, because there is nothing that eliminates a believer accepting Evolution.

Unless, of course, you find it impossible to reconcile the Genesis account with the alleged science that attempts to support evolution.

The very premise is blatantly false in my view. It is when I see stuff like that, that I get suspicious that the YEC is bearing false witness. So please reassure me about what you actually mean here.

Let me get this straight: When I say I'm a believer, you don't understand what that means? Hmmmm

What do you mean? Sorry, but now I am getting even MORE suspicious and apprehensive, as this is the stuff I usually see from YEC who want to make claims about science or about a conversion to YEC without actually having a clue what Evolution is. I am not positive about being hoodwinked, so please explain a bit more about what you mean. Sorry to seem so suspicious, but I have been in this situation uncountable times, and the result is nearly always the same.

That could be because you haven't investigated the biblical account of creation with an open heart, an open mind, and above all else, an open spirit. I'm not going to write a college term paper here, but let's just start with the contention of the geologists that the fossils date the sedimentary layers, but the anthropologists claim the sedimentary layers date the fossils. That's circular reasoning. There are countless other examples, but the tone of your post indicates you refuse to examine the evidence honestly, or you would have questions yourself.

And you have that right. You seem to miss the point, though. It is not the faith of YEC that is a problem to us. It is YEC then proceeding to make false claims about science, accusing everybody else of not being the right kind of Christian etc.

When you see me make that kind of claim against you, feel free to call me on it. Don't assume, because I'm YEC, that I am not capable of emperical thought. Yes, I questioned your study of the biblical account above, but that doesn't mean I'm questioning your Christian faith. It means I'm questioning your scientific approach. That's how I came to the conclusion that the biblical account, the YEC theory, is the most likely correct one. I'd just urge you to look at both sides of the issue. Your posts thus far indicate to me that you have rejected YEC without really examining it.

 

[gluadys]

I used to be an unbeliever, and as such, I believed evolution.

This is the giveaway and I've seen it time and again in those who adopted YEC as adolescents or adults.

You "believed" in evolution. Well, evolution is science not religion. Anyone who confesses to "believing" in evolution is admitting that they never learned about it.

But when I became a believer, I had to begin questioning what I'd been taught.

You didn't have to, but it is always good to question what you have been taught, in religion as much as in science. But it would be better to question each on their own terms instead of using science to question religion and religion to question science.

As long as you were questioning anyway, it would have been appropriate to see what scientists say about common YEC objections to evolution and other aspects of science.

There is too much circular reasoning, too much "assumed" to be true when the reality is the assumptions don't hold up to emperical reasoning. I respect your viewpoint, but I don't accept the viewpoint. I do not see any way evolution can be true in light of critical examination, much less in light of Scripture.

Critical examination of the evidence is just what you have avoided so far. Whether that would make you change your mind about the compatibility of science and scripture is a different question. No one is asking that you change your faith. Only that you be honest about science.

Sorry if that makes me "ignorant" in your eyes, but as it happens, I hold three degrees and I still don't see any alternative to YEC.[/FONT][/COLOR]

How many of these degrees are in biology? geology? or even science?

btw "ignorant" does not mean "stupid" or "unintelligent". It means "uninformed" or "unedcuated". Everyone is ignorant of something, even well-educated geniuses. If your education has not focused on evolution, you are ignorant of evolution no matter how much education and intelligence you possess.

 

[steen]

Unless, of course, you find it impossible to reconcile the Genesis account with the alleged science that attempts to support evolution.

Fortunately, I don't have that problem, so your argument is irrelevant.

Let me get this straight: When I say I'm a believer, you don't understand what that means? Hmmmm

When you say that you were a "believer" in Evolution, in SCIENCE, then yes it is suspect. VERY suspect. And you by now indeed have shown your true colors, such as quoting Hovind. Your claim seems on the surface blatantly false. You seem to outright misrepresenting yourself, and thus as dishonest. Did you remember what I said about YEC and dishonesty, and how it is so disgusting? Well, you just confirmed my impression.

That could be because you haven't investigated the biblical account of creation with an open heart, an open mind, and above all else, an open spirit.

Sure I have. The problem is not with scripture. The problem lie with YEC making false claims about science in various ways. Like above, when you tried to misrepresent yourself as previously having been accepting Evolution.... Ah, forgive me. When you BELIEVED in Evolution. YEC just is no good at faking scientific background or knowledge. you would have MUCH more credibility if you merely admitted that your belief in creation is based on faith. nobody would disagree with that or fight you over it.

But I am getting the impression that YEC is not satisfied with this. You also need to "win" over Evolution, and hence YEC end up with that slew of dishonest claims we always see.

I'm not going to write a college term paper here, but let's just start with the contention of the geologists that the fossils date the sedimentary layers, but the anthropologists claim the sedimentary layers date the fossils. That's circular reasoning.

Nope, because there are much more than just ONE dating method performed on each fossil. That you are unaware of the rigorous process involved is merely evidence of your lack of knowledge in this are. Did you see the link I provided from professor Wiend?

There are countless other examples, but the tone of your post indicates you refuse to examine the evidence honestly, or you would have questions yourself.

Ah, and for good measure, an ad hominem. No surprise there.

W

hen you see me make that kind of claim against you, feel free to call me on it.

I have several times already. And you were rather unappreciative. Further evidence for my observation.

Don't assume, because I'm YEC, that I am not capable of emperical thought.

I don't. I, however, observe this per the way you answer your posts with vague and erroneous claims and refuse actual evidence and established science. this has nothing to do with you being YEC. It has to do with the level of your intellectual honesty.

Yes, I questioned your study of the biblical account above, but that doesn't mean I'm questioning your Christian faith. It means I'm questioning your scientific approach.

Really? My scientific approach is insufficient if I don;'t study unsubstantiated sources with no evidence in them? You REALLY don't know what science is, do you?

That's how I came to the conclusion that the biblical account, the YEC theory, is the most likely correct one.

Well, of course you did. I don't think anybody here doubts that.

I'd just urge you to look at both sides of the issue.

I have. And found YEC having NO supportive evidence and mainly is 'defended" through misrepresentations of science and evolution and frequently through outright lies. I did that decades ago, and have followed the debate close since, seeing absolutely nothing new from YEC since then. Come up with your evidence that YEC always claim they have but never have been able to produce, and I will gladly take a look at it.

Your posts thus far indicate to me that you have rejected YEC without really examining it.

No, I rejected YEC because I DID look closely at it and found it based almost entirely on lies about evolution and a tremendous ignorance about Evolution and even of the most basic science and scientific principles.

 

[vossler]

I don't think it's necessarily lip service. And herein lies the limitation of an internet forum. I'd love to hang out with any of you. But the fact is, we're nowhere close to each other. Most of what you know about me is filtered through the medium of this forum. If I'm particularly clever, you won't see any part of me that I don't want to show you, and you may even see things that aren't so that I do want to show you. I might be an elaborate parody, and write theological essays as cover. Now, I'm not saying that I do any of this (though, as to covering things, I will say that the medium gives me opportunity to process what I say before I say it), but it is the inherent epistemological limit of an internet forum. I think if you knew me in real life, you wouldn't be concerned as to whether I was dedicated to Christ. You would probably come to some perspective on the matter, and you might be right or you might be mistaken, but this notion of quoting percentages to determine whether I am doing lip service to these statements would be out of the question.

First of all thanks for not seeing this as some sort of attack. Secondly, the lip service I'm referring to applies equally to all, no one has a corner on this market. Thirdly, I definitely agree with your assessment here, it is extremely difficult to get to know someone within such a limited contact experience. I'm a very intense probing person who, in a personal environment, can get to know someone intimately in a very short time. Not to boast, but if I knew you in person I would "know" you quite well and whatever questions I may have today, well they would have been sufficiently answered long ago. Yet the skills I have to make those assessments in person are practically inept within a forum environment such as this because of very reasons you mentioned. Yet, that doesn't mean that one can hide everything. It isn't difficult to ascertain who here has a hard time loving their neighbor and if a basic tenet of the faith such as that isn't being met, well it makes it quite easy to assess their walk.

Right now I have no reason whatsoever to be concerned about your dedication to Christ. From everything I've seen you appear to be one fine and upstanding man who loves the Lord and his neighbor. Yet, you could be a charlatan or hypocrite, I truly don't know. It's sad that on a forum such as this, the truth can be hidden quite easily. But, if I were a betting man I'd say you were the former.

The question is not whether we are doing lip service, but whether we can afford to give each other the benefit of the doubt. As limiting as this medium may be, we could simply choose to take each other at face value and treat each other as brothers who happen to disagree on hermeneutics. Not that this disagreement is a matter to be taken lightly, but that we can accept that we are all sincere (and some of us are sincerely mistaken). In the context of debating the issues, some people act inappropriately, but they don't teach rhetoric in school, like they did in the middle ages, and it's a weakness we'll overcome.

On the surface this sounds rather simple and easy to do. Of course I should give people the benefit of the doubt and accept what they tell me at face value, especially from a brother. For the most part that is exactly what I do, at least from those who display a courteous and forgiving manner.

I have no doubt that most if not all TEs are very sincere considering their beliefs and certainly don't take them lightly. Some of those sincerely felt differences between Christians have little to no bearing on much of anything, then still others may appear as innocuous but have the potential to be quite deadly. It is our job to be discerning and careful as to how one approaches many of such topics. God's Word is very direct and piercing, it behooves us to understand that it can cut in two directions. Many things are not quite as simple as we tend to make them, and yet many others are. It is our job, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to cut back the hyperbole and extraneous information and get down into the marrow of the matter. Then, once it has been discovered to rest upon it and never be shaken from its foundations.

With regard to actions. I understand people acting inappropriately, it is something we all will do at one time or another. The difference being, as Christians we should, at some point, take responsibility for our actions and apologize and ask for forgiveness when we're wrong. Some of us are much better than others at doing that. As a matter of fact, some don't even allow themselves to be put into a position where apologizes are in order. Oh how I wish I could say I've arrived there.

The bottom line considering my initial response is still the same, we can all say whatever it is we choose to say, but in the end it matters very little. What matters is what we do, not what we say.

 

[jereth]

Can you point me towards them? I would be very inetrested in finding out what they have to say. As I said, in the last 20 years, I must have failed to come across them.

Sorry, these are people who I know personally (church, etc.) and they are not internet nerds like me

The reality is, there are many YECists who hold the position simply because that's what they've been taught, and while they might be suspicious about TEism, they do not have the open hostility of those whose minds have been poisoned by AiG & co.