Sydney Serbian Orthodox Community

[Dalibor]

You should have loyalty to your chosen country where you live. That is the country protecting and taking care of you.

How do you define loyalty? If by loyalty you mean being drafted into armed forces to kill some poor people in Vietnam or Iraq (like Australians did) then No I am not going to be loyal.

 

[Dalibor]

I am OCA. My particular area has plenty of choices - so I'm not personally impacted as much by this. The problem would come into play that - say that the only Orthodox Church I have in the area is Russian. I'm not Russian. Church IS more than just the service as we are called to have fellowship together. If the only thing available for my (future) kids outside of church is the Russian cultural events, then I may be forced to adopt some of that if I want to have outside fellowship with my parish members. It also makes Orthodoxy look like it is Russian or Greek and often makes people feel unwelcome.

I don't have a problem with you having cultural events for your ethnicity. Just don't have it be the primary focus.

You don't have to accept any part of Russian culture. You know that very well.
I have been attending my parishes for years yet I have NEVER socialized with any other member of my parishes. I simply attend service and than leave. If I want to have fun and socialize I will find that somewhere else not in the church.
That's why I have zero understanding for people who claim that can't be Orthodox because other members of that parish have after-the-service cultural events which are not American or Western.
And cultural events are never the primary focus of any parish. And even if there are parishioners who prefer cultural events more than spiritual service that is really none of your business. You should attend church for your own salvation not because of the level of piety of other parishioners.

 

[Dalibor]

"How would any country test their citizens for loyalty? Under which laws does that belong?"


Laws against treason for one. If you want to find out, go ahead and spy on Australia on behalf of Serbia and watch what happens.

You said in your previous post that Australian authorities should examine my loyalty because I dared to declare myself as Serb. And now you are inferring that I am spy.
You do realize that you are losing all credibility by posting things like that.

 

[Snovi11]

I don't know why we got to this massive debate about ethnocentrism but as mentioned I had no intention of that nor is that the issue of why Serbs are not going to church in Sydney lol

I was just trying to get more of my own nationality/ethincity/community whatever you want to call it back to the Orthodox faith. Thats it.

Now of course i never ever said that its only them that are allowed in or anything remotely close to that nor do any churches that i know of here ever say that, at least not my parish.

So i do think Dalibor has been taken out of context sometimes and as for not feeling welcome well this thread didn't go the right way about making someone feel welcome. (no one in particular just talking in general)

 

[Dalibor]

Also - the very fact of you saying "build your own church if you don't want participate in cultural activities...since non-ethnic members didn't build it" - sounds like you're saying that whoever built the church owns it and the direction it goes. .

That is completely not Orthodox - and shows the potential danger of having ethnic-focused communities. That is not a necessary component of Greek / Russian / Serbian/ Antochian churches as is evident by the churches in my area. . As I said, some cultural events, etc. aren't the problem - but it shouldn't be the focus.

It is a very visible attitude to many people though and that attitude can be very detrimental to Orthodoxy as a whole.

Tell me - 10 generations down the road, will it be said that "our ancestors built this building, so we are going to have the most say over this, despite the financial and spiritual support of all the non-ethnic members over the years"? It's actually pretty offensive. "Don't want to join the our culture's club? Build your own!"

I would gladly tell you to visit our parishes but you obviously want more than just a church. You want a social club and not just any social club but American one where you can feel comfortable. Since this has nothing to do with church itself I again advise to go somewhere else to socialize if that's really important to you (although I don't understand why).
No, parishes with specific ethnic cultures are not detrimental to Orthodoxy.
If Serbian church didn't exist in Australia I would probably attend Antiochian one where they have service in English. And never in the right mind would I demand from that parish to remove Arabic or whatever cultural events they have after the service.
Church is one thing and social club is another thing. The reason why social club is built next to church in many parishes is because of convenience. Seeking to remove current club just to be replaced with another social club is not going to make anyone a better Christian.

 

[SeventhValley]

How do you define loyalty? If by loyalty you mean being drafted into armed forces to kill some poor people in Vietnam or Iraq (like Australians did) then No I am not going to be loyal.

Verses the mass killing of unarmed civilians who were your friends and neighbors....

 

[All4Christ]

I would gladly tell you to visit our parishes but you obviously want more than just a church. You want a social club and not just any social club but American one where you can feel comfortable. Since this has nothing to do with church itself I again advise to go somewhere else to socialize if that's really important to you (although I don't understand why).
No, parishes with specific ethnic cultures are not detrimental to Orthodoxy.
If Serbian church didn't exist in Australia I would probably attend Antiochian one where they have service in English. And never in the right mind would I demand from that parish to remove Arabic or whatever cultural events they have after the service.
Church is one thing and social club is another thing. The reason why social club is built next to church in many parishes is because of convenience. Seeking to remove current club just to be replaced with another social club is not going to make anyone a better Christian.

Hold on - let me step back a bit. Let me make it clear that i don't want a social club. I do not have a problem if there are some cultural events after church, but I don't think it should be the only thing outside of church.

When I say that, I'm not saying to have a group to play games or something like that... I'm more talking about having things like a bible study, or time for parents with young children to have an akathist together followed by brunch... A young adults group...I think there may be a misunderstanding based on what I'm hearing you think I want.

I'm sorry that this has come off as me not being open to Orthodox churches with ethnic backgrounds. I do think that we should have things other than just the cultural aspects of it (such as what I mentioned above ) - but I wouldn't go to a parish and tell them to replace their events with american versions.

It's late and I will try to explain more tomorrow. For the record though, I don't want to have people come in and throw out the events you are doing.

 

[All4Christ]

I would gladly tell you to visit our parishes but you obviously want more than just a church. You want a social club and not just any social club but American one where you can feel comfortable. Since this has nothing to do with church itself I again advise to go somewhere else to socialize if that's really important to you (although I don't understand why).
No, parishes with specific ethnic cultures are not detrimental to Orthodoxy.
If Serbian church didn't exist in Australia I would probably attend Antiochian one where they have service in English. And never in the right mind would I demand from that parish to remove Arabic or whatever cultural events they have after the service.
Church is one thing and social club is another thing. The reason why social club is built next to church in many parishes is because of convenience. Seeking to remove current club just to be replaced with another social club is not going to make anyone a better Christian.

Also, I think I may have had a different definition of social club, perhaps since we don't have something like that (I.e. a building beside the church). I reacted to what you wrote based on some last experiences and I believe that I may have misunderstood what you meant about some things. I apologize for any offense.

 

[All4Christ]

I don't know why we got to this massive debate about ethnocentrism but as mentioned I had no intention of that nor is that the issue of why Serbs are not going to church in Sydney lol

I was just trying to get more of my own nationality/ethincity/community whatever you want to call it back to the Orthodox faith. Thats it.

Now of course i never ever said that its only them that are allowed in or anything remotely close to that nor do any churches that i know of here ever say that, at least not my parish.

So i do think Dalibor has been taken out of context sometimes and as for not feeling welcome well this thread didn't go the right way about making someone feel welcome. (no one in particular just talking in general)

Unfortunately, I believe I misread some of what he was saying due to a different background. I also think my remarks may have come out too strongly.

 

[Dalibor]

Verses the mass killing of unarmed civilians who were your friends and neighbors....

I think we can both agree that on judgment day we will know the whole truth because nothing hidden will stay hidden.

 

[Dalibor]

Hold on - let me step back a bit. Let me make it clear that i don't want a social club. I do not have a problem if there are some cultural events after church, but I don't think it should be the only thing outside of church.

When I say that, I'm not saying to have a group to play games or something like that... I'm more talking about having things like a bible study, or time for parents with young children to have an akathist together followed by brunch... A young adults group...I think there may be a misunderstanding based on what I'm hearing you think I want.

I'm sorry that this has come off as me not being open to Orthodox churches with ethnic backgrounds. I do think that we should have things other than just the cultural aspects of it (such as what I mentioned above ) - but I wouldn't go to a parish and tell them to replace their events with american versions.

It's late and I will try to explain more tomorrow. For the record though, I don't want to have people come in and throw out the events you are doing.

Wanting those things that you listed is fine. We have sermons by noted priests on specific spiritual issues during the Great lent. It is held in our social club next to the church during evening hours. Wanting things like that is understandable. But I still don't see what this has to do with non related cultural events. Unless cultural events take so much time that there is no time for anything else.
Why can't you have both at different time of day? You can't convince me that abandoning ethnospecific cultural events will make parishioners more willing to study bible together or read Akathist together.
And in the grand picture how would that bring English speaking crowd to churches? If they don't accept Orthodoxy based on it's teaching but only if all ethnic ties within a parish are eliminated than they are not really seeking Christ but basically an american social club. And that's what this thread boils down to. A guy 'Snovi11' comes into this forum wanting to find answers why Serbs don't attend church and he is immediately told it is because of our ethnic ties. And not just that, apparently we are also responsible for all Aussies not being Orthodox right now.

 

[All4Christ]

Wanting those things that you listed is fine. We have sermons by noted priests on specific spiritual issues during the Great lent. It is held in our social club next to the church during evening hours. Wanting things like that is understandable. But I still don't see what this has to do with non related cultural events. Unless cultural events take so much time that there is no time for anything else.
Why can't you have both at different time of day? You can't convince me that abandoning ethnospecific cultural events will make parishioners more willing to study bible together or read Akathist together.
And in the grand picture how would that bring English speaking crowd to churches? If they don't accept Orthodoxy based on it's teaching but only if all ethnic ties within a parish are eliminated than they are not really seeking Christ but basically an american social club. And that's what this thread boils down to. A guy 'Snovi11' comes into this forum wanting to find answers why Serbs don't attend church and he is immediately told it is because of our ethnic ties. And not just that, apparently we are also responsible for all Aussies not being Orthodox right now.

My point is - if this areas I I mentioned are fulfilled, then I have no problem with the social club being based on the cultural traditions. I misunderstood what you were saying.

 

[Dalibor]

I think I should explain why Serbian culture is tied with Orthodoxy. Like in every christian nation you have two groups of people. Those who seek Christ and Truth and therefore embrace Orthodoxy. And those who don't seek Christ or Salvation but rather embrace Orthodoxy for cultural reason because it enriches their lives or they like traditions or things like that.
Now those who really seek Christ will always be Christian even if they lose all their ethnic culture or traditions. But those who are nominal Christian or what I call cultural Christians if they abandon all their ethnic culture they will lose their Church and Orthodoxy all together along with it. Because for them Orthodoxy was just a culture.
So it's important to keep cultural Orthodoxy even if they are not real Christian right now. Because one day on deathbed they can remember their ancestor were Orthodox Christian and by trying to find comfort in their culture they can embrace Orthodoxy as real living faith and thus save their souls.
The problem of Serbs in western world is they are so westernized and secularized that they even abandon this 'cultural Orthodoxy' and close all windows of salvation. What are the chances that those people will find true faith after they abandon Orthodoxy even as cultural thing. They could start believing in God but they are more likely to pick some heretical teaching from Protestants. This is also dangerous for their souls.
Now you American Orthodox Christians coverts are completely different. None of you became Orthodox for cultural reason. You all embraced Orthodoxy as a true faith. You are all real Christian.
The problem arises when real American Orthodox Christians come into contact with cultural Orthodox from various ethnic parishes and starts demanding from them to be more Christian and less ethnocentric. This is a problem because by removing all ethnic ties and culture we are also removing a big part of Serbs from the Orthodoxy because they simply won't have any reason to attend Church and religious traditions if they are not tied with their culture.
Now Americans can say 'We don't care'. Remove your ethnicity so that more Americans can be attracted to your Churches. While they may not care we do. I will always love Serbs more then Aussies or Americans in your case.
If we have to choose between alienating part of Serbs from Orthodoxy and thus attracting more western converts or keeping cultural orthodoxy and potentially saving nominal Orthodox Christian but missing on opportunity to attract more western converts I will always pick my people.
Because with due respect you western people had orthodoxy before we Slavs did. Yet you blew it. Countless generations lost due to the decisions of your forefathers. The fact that your people are not Orthodox is fault of your ancestors and ignorance of your people towards anything that comes from Eastern Europe.

 

[SeventhValley]

If salvation depends on being born in the right place it is false.

 

[jckstraw72]

I think I should explain why Serbian culture is tied with Orthodoxy. Like in every christian nation you have two groups of people. Those who seek Christ and Truth and therefore embrace Orthodoxy. And those who don't seek Christ or Salvation but rather embrace Orthodoxy for cultural reason because it enriches their lives or they like traditions or things like that.
Now those who really seek Christ will always be Christian even if they lose all their ethnic culture or traditions. But those who are nominal Christian or what I call cultural Christians if they abandon all their ethnic culture they will lose their Church and Orthodoxy all together along with it. Because for them Orthodoxy was just a culture.
So it's important to keep cultural Orthodoxy even if they are not real Christian right now. Because one day on deathbed they can remember their ancestor were Orthodox Christian and by trying to find comfort in their culture they can embrace Orthodoxy as real living faith and thus save their souls.
The problem of Serbs in western world is they are so westernized and secularized that they even abandon this 'cultural Orthodoxy' and close all windows of salvation. What are the chances that those people will find true faith after they abandon Orthodoxy even as cultural thing. They could start believing in God but they are more likely to pick some heretical teaching from Protestants. This is also dangerous for their souls.
Now you American Orthodox Christians coverts are completely different. None of you became Orthodox for cultural reason. You all embraced Orthodoxy as a true faith. You are all real Christian.
The problem arises when real American Orthodox Christians come into contact with cultural Orthodox from various ethnic parishes and starts demanding from them to be more Christian and less ethnocentric. This is a problem because by removing all ethnic ties and culture we are also removing a big part of Serbs from the Orthodoxy because they simply won't have any reason to attend Church and religious traditions if they are not tied with their culture.
Now Americans can say 'We don't care'. Remove your ethnicity so that more Americans can be attracted to your Churches. While they may not care we do. I will always love Serbs more then Aussies or Americans in your case.
If we have to choose between alienating part of Serbs from Orthodoxy and thus attracting more western converts or keeping cultural orthodoxy and potentially saving nominal Orthodox Christian but missing on opportunity to attract more western converts I will always pick my people.
Because with due respect you western people had orthodoxy before we Slavs did. Yet you blew it. Countless generations lost due to the decisions of your forefathers. The fact that your people are not Orthodox is fault of your ancestors and ignorance of your people towards anything that comes from Eastern Europe.

Dalibor, thank you for explaining what you see as the importance of maintaining the cultural heritage that goes along with Orthodoxy. I think you made many good points. However, there has to be a way that it's not a choice between saving Serbs or attracting new people - it needs to be both. i don't have easy answers, but the Gospel is for all and God will not leave us clueless if we're truly trying to fulfill the Gospel.

 

[Llauralin]

I think I should explain why Serbian culture is tied with Orthodoxy. Like in every christian nation you have two groups of people. Those who seek Christ and Truth and therefore embrace Orthodoxy. And those who don't seek Christ or Salvation but rather embrace Orthodoxy for cultural reason because it enriches their lives or they like traditions or things like that.
Now those who really seek Christ will always be Christian even if they lose all their ethnic culture or traditions. But those who are nominal Christian or what I call cultural Christians if they abandon all their ethnic culture they will lose their Church and Orthodoxy all together along with it. Because for them Orthodoxy was just a culture.
So it's important to keep cultural Orthodoxy even if they are not real Christian right now. Because one day on deathbed they can remember their ancestor were Orthodox Christian and by trying to find comfort in their culture they can embrace Orthodoxy as real living faith and thus save their souls.
The problem of Serbs in western world is they are so westernized and secularized that they even abandon this 'cultural Orthodoxy' and close all windows of salvation. What are the chances that those people will find true faith after they abandon Orthodoxy even as cultural thing. They could start believing in God but they are more likely to pick some heretical teaching from Protestants. This is also dangerous for their souls.
Now you American Orthodox Christians coverts are completely different. None of you became Orthodox for cultural reason. You all embraced Orthodoxy as a true faith. You are all real Christian.
The problem arises when real American Orthodox Christians come into contact with cultural Orthodox from various ethnic parishes and starts demanding from them to be more Christian and less ethnocentric. This is a problem because by removing all ethnic ties and culture we are also removing a big part of Serbs from the Orthodoxy because they simply won't have any reason to attend Church and religious traditions if they are not tied with their culture.
Now Americans can say 'We don't care'. Remove your ethnicity so that more Americans can be attracted to your Churches. While they may not care we do. I will always love Serbs more then Aussies or Americans in your case.
If we have to choose between alienating part of Serbs from Orthodoxy and thus attracting more western converts or keeping cultural orthodoxy and potentially saving nominal Orthodox Christian but missing on opportunity to attract more western converts I will always pick my people.
Because with due respect you western people had orthodoxy before we Slavs did. Yet you blew it. Countless generations lost due to the decisions of your forefathers. The fact that your people are not Orthodox is fault of your ancestors and ignorance of your people towards anything that comes from Eastern Europe.

Oh man. Having majorly mixed feelings about this. Please be careful.

In any event, you started this with a request for something to help these Serbian youth (and others?) in your area, and your Facebook page. I'm not sure what you had in mind, though. A FB page can be a good way to coordinate things and remind people of what's going on, but of course it's important to have real things going on, even if you have to start small. You want English speaking Serbian Orthodox writers and contacts? St Nikolai Velimirovich is my favorite recent writer of that kind -- he wrote beautifully. We have a Serbian theological high school here, but they don't speak English very well.

 

[dzheremi]

Dalibor didn't start this thread, Llauralin. Snovi11 did.

 

[Llauralin]

Dalibor didn't start this thread, Llauralin. Snovi11 did.

Ah, I see now. I had read the posts, but got them confused, thanks.

 

[All4Christ]

I think I should explain why Serbian culture is tied with Orthodoxy. Like in every christian nation you have two groups of people. Those who seek Christ and Truth and therefore embrace Orthodoxy. And those who don't seek Christ or Salvation but rather embrace Orthodoxy for cultural reason because it enriches their lives or they like traditions or things like that. Now those who really seek Christ will always be Christian even if they lose all their ethnic culture or traditions. But those who are nominal Christian or what I call cultural Christians if they abandon all their ethnic culture they will lose their Church and Orthodoxy all together along with it. Because for them Orthodoxy was just a culture. So it's important to keep cultural Orthodoxy even if they are not real Christian right now. Because one day on deathbed they can remember their ancestor were Orthodox Christian and by trying to find comfort in their culture they can embrace Orthodoxy as real living faith and thus save their souls. The problem of Serbs in western world is they are so westernized and secularized that they even abandon this 'cultural Orthodoxy' and close all windows of salvation. What are the chances that those people will find true faith after they abandon Orthodoxy even as cultural thing. They could start believing in God but they are more likely to pick some heretical teaching from Protestants. This is also dangerous for their souls. Now you American Orthodox Christians coverts are completely different. None of you became Orthodox for cultural reason. You all embraced Orthodoxy as a true faith. You are all real Christian. The problem arises when real American Orthodox Christians come into contact with cultural Orthodox from various ethnic parishes and starts demanding from them to be more Christian and less ethnocentric. This is a problem because by removing all ethnic ties and culture we are also removing a big part of Serbs from the Orthodoxy because they simply won't have any reason to attend Church and religious traditions if they are not tied with their culture. Now Americans can say 'We don't care'. Remove your ethnicity so that more Americans can be attracted to your Churches. While they may not care we do. I will always love Serbs more then Aussies or Americans in your case. If we have to choose between alienating part of Serbs from Orthodoxy and thus attracting more western converts or keeping cultural orthodoxy and potentially saving nominal Orthodox Christian but missing on opportunity to attract more western converts I will always pick my people. Because with due respect you western people had orthodoxy before we Slavs did. Yet you blew it. Countless generations lost due to the decisions of your forefathers. The fact that your people are not Orthodox is fault of your ancestors and ignorance of your people towards anything that comes from Eastern Europe.

I agree with jckstraw72 - I appreciate you taking the time to explain this. It does help me understand where you are coming from. I (now) understand and appreciate what you are saying about the connection of the Serbian culture and Orthodoxy. I admittedly don't have the same experience of a culture based on Orthodoxy - and I can't claim to fully know the experience of having culture being entwined with my Orthodox Faith.

Because with due respect you western people had orthodoxy before we Slavs did. Yet you blew it. Countless generations lost due to the decisions of your forefathers. The fact that your people are not Orthodox is fault of your ancestors and ignorance of your people towards anything that comes from Eastern Europe.

This is the section I have a problem with. One- as jckstraw72 said, there has to be a way to work towards the salvation of both the Serbian people and those who are not Serbian.

Many of us did not have a history of Orthodoxy. Granted, the Orthodox faith was previously in Western Europe before the split of the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church. However, much of it did not match Orthodoxy since 1054 (and in some areas possibly before) due to distance and difficulty of communication. We didn't have anyone like Cyrill or Methodius come to our country. Instead, we had to deal with generations of turbulence (during the reformation) of trying to fix "wrongs" and not having the knowledge that Orthodoxy was even a possibility.

Even if our ancestors did cause us to lose generations of Orthodoxy - that doesn't make the salvation of others who have not become a part of an Orthodox country any less important to obtain salvation and to find the Orthodox faith.

One additional note -Americans aren't just from Europe. There are many that came from cultures that hadn't even heard of Christianity. They didn't have Orthodoxy before the Slavic countries found Orthodoxy, and their salvation is just as important as yours or mine.



Finally, let me explain something about my people.

I don't have a single ethnic group that I associate with, since I am a mixture of many cultures. That said, I do care very much about "my people"...my family, friends, neighbors, parish members. As much as you care for the Serbs - we care for those around us. I want more than almost anything for my family to find Orthodoxy. It is a struggle to not have them be able to share this together with me. They have no culture to hold them to Orthodoxy. In fact, it is completely opposite of their culture. Even with the OCA, it feels like they are in a completely foreign church experience compared to what generations of our family have experienced.

Their salvation is 100% as important as anyone from any culture. God cares for us all - equally - no matter whether we have been a part of an Orthodox culture - or are foreigners to the Orthodox culture just looking for the true faith.



So my question to everyone is - how can we enable both the retention of Orthodox ethnic culture while still enabling Orthodoxy to reach out to all people no matter what ethnicity? How can we become united as Orthodox Christians - no matter the jurisdiction - while still respecting the culture people have come from?