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SeventhValley

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I wonder if St Patrick is Orthodox enough, considering he is a Western saint.....

Especially since he was a British, man preaching to the Irish. I think my man Greg is on to something....

Our Orthodox Chaplain explained explained to me some of the Orthodox influence from St.Patrick found in traditional Anglican churches.
 
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SeventhValley

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Mabry this is my ignorance being in a land of immigrants but I thought wherever you move you accept the culture. Example if I moved to Russia I would speak Russian and celebrate Russian holidays. When I lived in Korea I celebrated Korean holidays and made Korean friends and tried to learn Korean(turns out my Korean sucked lol). If I moved to Mexico(or even southern Californian) I would learn Spanish.
Orthodoxy should be able to be in any culture.
 
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Dalibor

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"While people who keep ties with their ethnic culture and traditions can retain some connections to the Church those who abandon all that become secularized to point where they are not Christian at all."

a big fat no to this. We are not to cling to our ethnicity, but to Christ, we cling to Christ and preach Him crucified. The solution to avoid materialism and secularism is not to cling to an earthly ethnicity but to Christ. There is neither jew nor greek, slave nor free, male nor female...but all are one in Christ Jesus.

St Paul said "it is no longer I, but Christ who lives in me..." He did not say "but (fill in the blank ethnicity) who lives in me.

My ethnicity IS my nationality. I can live on Mars or on North Pole and still be a Serb and not a Martian or Eskimo. If you really believe in what you say ( and apparently you don't since you are waving your american flag) than you should abandon your american nationality and loyalty to your people. Let's see how would society work if everyone does that.
 
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"Orthodoxy should be able to be in any culture."

It can and it does. Only when people conflate Orthodoxy with their ethnicity do you see that not happening. But there is nothing in Orthodoxy that says it's only for certain ethnic groups and not for others.
 
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All4Christ

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That is not a problem, that is a trivial matter.



That's attention-seeking. You didn't become Orthodox to make new friends did you?



Being judgmental of others is a sin. What they do with their lives is none of your business. And blaming lack of virtues because someone is ethnocentric is underlying animosity on your part towards those ethnic groups.



This sounds like a political undertone. Are you sure you are not just angry at us for political reasons but hiding it with attacks on our ethnicity?
Or do you seriously believe if we all abandon our ethnicity/culture/tradition and become westernized or Americanized that suddenly waves of Anglos would flock to our churches embracing Orthodoxy?
Problem of your people is ignorance of Orthodoxy and intolerance. If they can't accept Orthodoxy because Russians are showing their culture or dancing after the service (Oh the horror) than that's strictly your problem and not our fault. Instead of trying to change us you should change yourselves.

You can hold to cultural traditions if you want - there is no problem with you doing that personally. The problem is making Orthodoxy be about the cultural elements. You can be Orthodox and Russian, Orthodox and Serbian, Orthodox and Australian, Orthodox and American, or any combination of ethnicities thereof. That said, the culture is NOT the faith. The problem is making the adoption of a culture be a part of becoming Orthodox.

Christ did not say to keep holding the Jewish traditions. After all - if you're going to put culture as a part of our faith, then the Jewish culture is the one that our Lord and Savior was a part of! He threw off the ties of our faith being associated to an ethnicity. "There is neither Jew, nor Greek....." Christianity is not tied to a culture, as we are not of this world (or at least we try not to be).

This isn't about us feeling " left out" - or about us thinking droves of "Anglos" will come in if we separate the culture from our faith. It's about portraying Orthodoxy as a faith not as a culture. It's about God loving people across all cultures. It's about not having Orthodoxy mandating culture onto the people interested in being a part of it. Because honestly - cultural events are far less important than our faith.

All this said, I have no problem with Orthodox Christians keeping their cultural elements. I can even see holding to some traditions out of respect for where we came from. But don't - please don't - make something Orthodox be for a ethnic group only, especially when that ethnic group is not YOUR country that you live in. Welcome everyone - Serbian, Greek, Russian, Australian, American - and don't try to make people become "ethnic" in order to participate.
 
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SeventhValley

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My ethnicity IS my nationality. I can live on Mars or on North Pole and still be a Serb and not a Martian or Eskimo. If you really believe in what you say ( and apparently you don't since you are waving your american flag) than you should abandon your american nationality and loyalty to your people. Let's see how would society work if everyone does that.

Actually your ethnicity is southern Slavic. Your nationality is Australian.
 
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All4Christ

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My ethnicity IS my nationality. I can live on Mars or on North Pole and still be a Serb and not a Martian or Eskimo. If you really believe in what you say ( and apparently you don't since you are waving your american flag) than you should abandon your american nationality and loyalty to your people. Let's see how would society work if everyone does that.

There is a difference between not being loyal to your culture - and making your faith be about your culture. Greg isn't saying you can't be a part of your culture, but is saying that the point of Orthodoxy should not be tied up with a culture. Orthodoxy is not of this world.
 
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If you are a citizen of Australia your nationality is Australian. If you don't like it, go back to Serbia.

I would question your loyality to Australia if that's where you live if I were the Australian authorities. I'm an American, and I would question your loyalties to America too if you were an American citizen and said the things you said.

and yeah, I'm going to wave that American flag, and if any foreign invaders dare to step on my shore, I'll assure you I'll fight right alongside my fellow Americans against them and I'll plant that waving American flag right over the defeated enemies and ask: "Oh say does that star spangled banner yet wave, over the land of the free, and the home of the brave?" The answer would be the same as it was in Baltimore then as it would be now, Yes it does! I would do it as an Orthodox Christian.
 
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All4Christ

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If it's that easy than why isn't OCA the biggest Christian denomination in USA or at least with the same number of members as one of the major protestant groups? What are you people doing over there?

You know very well that the OCA is very young. We haven't been here very long - and we also struggle with the balance between ethnicity, Orthodoxy and the American culture.

That said, there are new converts all the time. It may not be "To the Brim" but there is a lot of growth, and a lot of people outside of the church learning about Orthodoxy.

America (like many western countries) has struggled to find our way with this since we can't just hold to one American culture...we have so many cultures in one place. It is often easier to try to adopt a culture that has embraced Orthodoxy instead of trying to forge our way through the American culture. Some countries have established traditions - and it is easier to adapt that tradition to be harmonious with the Orthodox faith (I.e. Alaskan chant, hymnography, etc.)
 
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SeventhValley

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If it's that easy than why isn't OCA the biggest Christian denomination in USA or at least with the same number of members as one of the major protestant groups? What are you people doing over there?

I went to a OCA church filled with Russians and a old lady asked me why I was there since I was not Russian. I never went back. I did not feel welcome.
 
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Dalibor

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Mabry this is my ignorance being in a land of immigrants but I thought wherever you move you accept the culture. Example if I moved to Russia I would speak Russian and celebrate Russian holidays. When I lived in Korea I celebrated Korean holidays and made Korean friends and tried to learn Korean(turns out my Korean sucked lol). If I moved to Mexico(or even southern Californian) I would learn Spanish.
Orthodoxy should be able to be in any culture.

You are confusing Orthodoxy with culture. Nobody is asking converts to accept Russian or Serbian culture to become Orthodox. You don't go to church to be cultured but to save your soul. The whole problem of some western converts stems from their intolerance of other ethnic cultures.
They claim parishes should only be about faith and nothing else. Yet who is stopping them from having just that? They can simply attend the service and then leave. Who says they should attend cultural activities after the service?
That fact that this bothers them means they seek more than just a spiritual things. They also want a social club but instead of Russian one American social club with american culture. It's very hypocritical on their part.
 
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All4Christ

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Also Anglo is a racist term. I for example am English Saxon(not Angle)& Celtic with a smaller amount of Slavic/Balkan DNA(I actually did a genetic test).

In fact my Y-DNA can be traced to anicent Saxon territory.

The Balkan DNA was a surprise.



It's a bit hard for me to call myself anything specific culturally...I guess I'm kind of a 'mutt' when it comes to my ethnic background...English, German, Swiss, Irish, with family in France, England, Israel, and America. My husband is mainly Rusyn-Carpatho - so our kids will be very diverse in their culture!
 
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You are confusing Orthodoxy with culture. Nobody is asking converts to accept Russian or Serbian culture to become Orthodox. You don't go to church to be cultured but to save your soul. The whole problem of some western converts stems from their intolerance of other ethnic cultures.
They claim parishes should only be about faith and nothing else. Yet who is stopping them from having just that? They can simply attend the service and then leave. Who says they should attend cultural activities after the service?
That fact that this bothers them means they seek more than just a spiritual things. They also want a social club but instead of Russian one American social club with american culture. It's very hypocritical on their part.

Our parish doesn't have a social club related to any ethnicity - not American either. We do have a fellowship hour after services, book / Bible studies, Tuesday morning akathists and brunch for stay at home parents and kids, etc. Why should we have it be about any specific ethnicity? How are we being hypocritical by not embracing the Russian culture in our activities outside of church? Why should the only activities outside of church be specific to a culture?
 
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Dalibor

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If you are a citizen of Australia your nationality is Australian. If you don't like it, go back to Serbia.

I would question your loyality to Australia if that's where you live if I were the Australian authorities. I'm an American, and I would question your loyalties to America too if you were an American citizen and said the things you said.

and yeah, I'm going to wave that American flag, and if any foreign invaders dare to step on my shore, I'll assure you I'll fight right alongside my fellow Americans against them and I'll plant that waving American flag right over the defeated enemies and ask: "Oh say does that star spangled banner yet wave, over the land of the free, and the home of the brave?" The answer would be the same as it was in Baltimore then as it would be now, Yes it does! I would do it as an Orthodox Christian.

I am always Serbian. The fact that Australian constitution doesn't recognize me as Serbian is irrelevant. Serbia is much more tolerant than your people obviously. We allow our citizens to declare themselves as they please and we recognize them as they want. That's why we even have Eskimos and Jedi Knights as citizen of Serbia.

How would any country test their citizens for loyalty? Under which laws does that belong?

Wow so much for 'it doesn't matter what you are'.
So let me get this right you want all of us to abandon our ethnic/cultural/traditional ties and loyalty to our nations while you can boast with your Americanism just so your people would dignify our churches with their visit?
You are completely delusional.
 
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Dalibor is going back on his words. First he accuses us of wanting to separate the ethnicity from the faith because if you don't cling to the ethnicity, the only alternative is secularism and materialism. We tell him that the faith isn't about the culture, but about Christ. He then accuses us (well at least me) of being nationalistic, says that his ethnicity is the same as his nationality, makes racist statements about Anglos (most of the English speaking world are not people descended directly from English people, but I digress...) then doubles back and says "oh wait, no, the Orthodoxy is about the faith, not about ethnicity, and goes back and accuses us of wanting an Orthodoxy with strong nationalistic Anglo overtones.

My my my!
 
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Dalibor

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Our parish doesn't have a social club related to any ethnicity - not American either. We do have a fellowship hour after services, book / Bible studies, Tuesday morning akathists and brunch for stay at home parents and kids, etc. Why should we have it be about any specific ethnicity? How are we being hypocritical by not embracing the Russian culture in our activities outside of church? Why should the only activities outside of church be specific to a culture?

Because Greeks/Russian/Serbs built those churches and accompanying buildings. They want their kids and all generations after them to preserve those cultural values.
Again no one is forcing you to embrace foreign culture for goodness sake. I am sure you can find american social club somewhere else.
Or here is even crazier idea why don't you join OCA or petition for a building of church in your area then you can do whatever cultural or lack of cultural activities you fancy.
 
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