Surah 4:89-90.

Polycarp1

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Hmmm... "condemn the whole theology of jihad" ... an interesting concept.

Rahma, correct where I'm in error on the following:

According to Islam, the "greater jihad" is the "internal jihad" -- to combat the tendency to sin within self, whatever prevents one from being a "servant of God" as He calls one to be.

The "lesser jihad" is the task to defend: to defend the poor and oppressed from being oppressed by others, to defend believers from oppression from idolaters, to defend the People of the Book (i.e., Moslems, Christians, and Jews, and in some interpretations Zoroastrians) from domination by infidels, and to defend Moslems from oppression by others.

The third element is where we run into problems: to expand the rule of those whom God has called to rule over others, being successors (kaliphim) of the Prophet, so that as many as possible will live under a rule which is carried out by one who follows God Himself and His holy Laws.

I cannot see a Christian objecting to the effort to fight sin within oneself, and the idea of defending those oppressed for their faith is almost equally proper within a Christian mindset. The third element, the spread of the rule of the caliph, makes sense from a theocratic mindset, though of course it presumes that such a rule is according to what God really wants -- but doesn't fit with Christian views on proper political power, in general, and of course the idea of exactly who is entitled to hold that power has been a real mess since at least 1922, and a Shi'ite would view it as having been a mess since (the original) Hussein was killed in something like 700 AD.

Anyway, I don't believe in Islam, so I am not arguing in favor of this stuff -- but honesty provokes me to look at what jihad is supposed to mean to a Moslem person.
 
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praying

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mikefromwichita said:
Yep I am somewhat a sterotype of Kansas, just as you are of NJ. Neither of us would be happy in the others neighborhood.


See here in lies the problem with your thinking, I said if you are representative of Wichita, and you responded yes, pray I hope not, and you stated I am representative of NJ, not if but am. Now how can you possibly make that bold leaping assumption?

I am not willing to assume and generalize everybody into a box like you.
 
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tulc said:
ever been here? Maybe they understand jihad has more then one meaning, and are unwilling to throw out the good with the bad?
http://www.cqpress.com/context/articles/epr_jihad.html

It would appear that the reference you have chosen simply reinforces my point. If you would remove the blinders of your PC Paradigm you would be able to see that from the earliest days right on up to Al-Qaeda, the Al-Sauds and the Taliban wherever islam has the strength it is a violent threat to ALL within its reach.

The Medieval Doctrine

In medieval legal sources (compiled roughly between the eighth and eleventh centuries), jihad generally referred to a divinely sanctioned struggle to establish Muslim hegemony over non-Muslims as a prelude to the propagation of the Islamic faith. Islamic legal scholars divided the world into two spheres: Dar al-Islam (land of Islam), where Islamic law applied, and Dar al-Harb (land of war), where the absence of Islamic law presumably fostered anarchy and immorality. The Islamic state's duty was to reduce Dar al-Harb--through peaceful means if possible, through war if necessary--until it had been incorporated into Dar al-Islam. Jurists differed on the possibility and duration of peace between the two spheres. The majority held that jihad could be suspended if the Muslim commander deemed it in the interest of the Islamic state, but usually not for more than ten years. The Qur'anic verses that suggest peaceful accommodation or coexistence with unbelievers (especially 2:193, 8:61) were declared abrogated by the later, more belligerent ones.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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mikefromwichita said:
Well shucks, the Wichita Eagle being the PC Pub that it is did not go into great detail as to exactly WHY a number of ME students at WSU got pummeled by their American classmates on 9/11 and following........BUT THEN the Eagle never bothered to point out the racial motivations of the Carr brothers in their rape/torture/murder spree either. You would have to go to a place like FrontPage or Jared Taylor's site for that info and dang those just aren't PC approved sites.

I know what I saw, I know what my eldest daughter saw and I know what numerous friends and co-workers saw- public glee on the part of numerous muslims at the attacks directed at my Country and no attempt on the part of the residual of that 'nation' to condemn the vile hate displayed by people who at best are guests ONLY in this Country.

I'll take that as "No, I can't find any reference to what I've been talking about." No one I know saw the things you did.

mikefromwichita said:
Yawn, but are they willing to condemn WITHOUT reservation the whole theolgy of jihad??????? If not they are blowing smoke and you are being taken in.

Sorry you're so sleepy. Let me reiterate - none of the Muslim business owners I know support terrorism. Period.
 
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mhatten said:
See here in lies the problem with your thinking, I said if you are representative of Wichita, and you responded yes, pray I hope not, and you stated I am representative of NJ, not if but am. Now how can you possibly make that bold leaping assumption?

I am not willing to assume and generalize everybody into a box like you.

:sick: That very handwringing unwillingness to form <Diety Disallow> a non-PC Sterotype simply demonstrates that I have you pegged rather well as a typical NJ woman. Sorting out Fact from Fiction is not near as difficult as you are pretending that it is.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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mhatten said:
See here in lies the problem with your thinking, I said if you are representative of Wichita, and you responded yes, pray I hope not, and you stated I am representative of NJ, not if but am. Now how can you possibly make that bold leaping assumption?

I am not willing to assume and generalize everybody into a box like you.

Don't worry, Mike is NOT representative of Kansans and especially not Wichitans. Kansas may be generally conservative, but not to this level.

There's a sizeable gay population in Wichita, liberals, a few witches here and there, punk rockers, etc. And even the conservatives I know would disagree with the level of Mike's thinking.
 
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ToddNotTodd said:
Sorry you're so sleepy. Let me reiterate - none of the Muslim business owners I know support terrorism. Period.

Yep no doubt that translates into- I really have no interest in looking to find out whether the islamics I associate with are supporters of terror.

One rarely finds that which they are deliberately NOT looking for. Our local DA and recent former Mayor can attest to that.
 
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ToddNotTodd said:
There's a sizeable gay population in Wichita, liberals, a few witches here and there, punk rockers, etc. And even the conservatives I know would disagree with the level of Mike's thinking.

Yep Todd all those folks must account for a good 3 - 5 % of the population where they concentrate in Wichita. :D Of course that per cent drops off dramatically out in the burbs and rural areas.

Face it to find enough lefties for a decent bridge game you need to go to Lawrence and even they are not close to meeting the Torrecelli standard.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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mikefromwichita said:
Yep Todd all those folks must account for a good 3 - 5 % of the population where they concentrate in Wichita. :D Of course that per cent drops off dramatically out in the burbs and rural areas.

Face it to find enough lefties for a decent bridge game you need to go to Lawrence and even they are not close to meeting the Torrecelli standard.

You misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm saying that NO ONE I know thinks the way you do.

Here's a little test. Call up to the local opinion line and say that you think it would be safer if we deport all Muslims. Or write a letter to the editor. See what kind of reaction you get.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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mikefromwichita said:
Yep no doubt that translates into- I really have no interest in looking to find out whether the islamics I associate with are supporters of terror.

One rarely finds that which they are deliberately NOT looking for. Our local DA and recent former Mayor can attest to that.

Well, if you're asking me if I've broken into their homes to search for terrorist literature, or bombs or whatever the answer is no. That would make me a paranoid wacko. I prefer to trust what my friends tell me. And if they were terrorists, do you think they'd tell me?
 
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rahma

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Polycarp1 said:
Hmmm... "condemn the whole theology of jihad" ... an interesting concept.

Rahma, correct where I'm in error on the following:

Yes you are correct. I've said that 3 million and one times on this board. There are several jhds: jhd of the nafs (of the soul against sins), jhd with your tongue, jhd with your actions, jhd against an unjust leader, jhd in academics, and jhd in defense of God, Islam and Muslims.

Western media translates jhd as simply holy war, which is certainly an aspect, but only one of many many parts of the word.

But then again, what do I know? I've only actually studied this stuff with teachers in a muslim majority country. I haven't learned from fox news, who obviously know more then teachers at al-azhar, the oldest islamic university in the world.
 
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ToddNotTodd said:
You misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm saying that NO ONE I know thinks the way you do.

Here's a little test. Call up to the local opinion line and say that you think it would be safer if we deport all Muslims. Or write a letter to the editor. See what kind of reaction you get.

Been there done that many times. Surely you don't think the Eagle is anything like even handed in the LTTE it publishes are you? :sigh: Islam is neither liked nor respected by the ordinary Wichitan inspite of what the folks from the local reps of the National Council of Churches and their shrinking aging duped congregations might think.
 
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rahma

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I highly doubt that any muslims celebrated 9-11 in america. Every single muslim I know was saddened and prayed that it was not muslims who had done it. We went to vigils and then quickly home, as we were afraid of being attacked.

Most of my friends from the UAE drive very nice cars. Almost all were keyed and egged in the following days. Women had their scarves yanked at. People left threatening messages on the masjid answering machine. If we had cheered (which was not on our mind), we would have been killed.
 
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rahma said:
..................Western media translates jhd as simply holy war,..........................


Given islam's unbroken history of violent aggression against non-muslims (and against muslims who are not pure enough for that matter) it would appear that the west has honed in on the aspect of jihad that really matters. A muslim majority that resists the impulse to trample/oppress the non-,uslims in its midst will be the first such in history.
 
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rahma said:
I highly doubt that any muslims celebrated 9-11 in america. Every single muslim I know was saddened and prayed that it was not muslims who had done it. We went to vigils and then quickly home, as we were afraid of being attacked.

Most of my friends from the UAE drive very nice cars. Almost all were keyed and egged in the following days. Women had their scarves yanked at. People left threatening messages on the masjid answering machine. If we had cheered (which was not on our mind), we would have been killed.

Here is just one example of the attitude of USA muslim leaders in the aftermath of 9/11-

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/572657/posts

DALLAS (AP) - Arabs and Muslims expressed outrage Friday at the U.S. Justice Department's plan to interview 5,000 young male foreigners, who are not suspected of any crimes, as part of the terrorism investigation. Civil rights activists say the action constitutes racial profiling.

"Unless the government has credible evidence that all these 5,000 men were involved in terrorism, which is very unlikely, then what Mr. Ashcroft is advocating is racial profiling at its most fundamental level," said Ramzi Dakour, vice president of the Arab American Students Association at the University of Texas at Austin.

Attorney General John Ashcroft announced Tuesday that the Justice Department has distributed a list of 5,000 men it wanted to interview about the Sept. 11 attacks. The list comprises men ages 18 to 33 who entered the United States since Jan. 1, 2000, from certain countries.

The countries represented were linked to the hijackers in the Sept. 11 attacks or were waystations for the terrorist organization, al-Qaida. The department acknowledges the men are likely to be Arab and Muslim, but says the list wasn't based on ethnic origin.


Truthfully your 'doubts' as to whether muslims residing in the USA cheered the attack on my Country counts for nothing next to the evidence I saw first hand.

As to the UAE. On the day of 9/11 some folks I work with who were in the UAE on business found themselves confronted by UAE Government officials who vilely cursed them while praising allah that America had been struck a hard blow.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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mikefromwichita said:
Been there done that many times. Surely you don't think the Eagle is anything like even handed in the LTTE it publishes are you? :sigh: Islam is neither liked nor respected by the ordinary Wichitan inspite of what the folks from the local reps of the National Council of Churches and their shrinking aging duped congregations might think.

Proof please. Have you taken a poll of all Wichitans?

And I know liberals that think the Eagle is a conservative rag. Can you prove the Eagle is biased?
 
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rahma

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mikefromwichita said:
Here is just one example of the attitude of USA muslim leaders in the aftermath of 9/11-

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/572657/posts

Racial profiling is hardly celebrating september 11. Until someone comes after you purely based on the color of your skin and that your names sounds weird, you won't understand. Until your spouse is locked up for months and you don't know where, you won't understand.

Were the Japanese American leaders wrong to say America was wrong for locking up Japanese Americans during WW2? Why can't people speak out against injustices?
 
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