Sunday Worship...

[rsduncan]

Is Sunday worship an example of an intermingling of paganism with the Christian faith? There are some Christian sects who observe a seventh-day sabbath that say that it is - some say it has to do with Baal...

 

[visionary]

You mean something like this...

Good Old Time Religion...PART TWO

 

[yedida]

Is Sunday worship an example of an intermingling of paganism with the Christian faith? There are some Christian sects who observe a seventh-day sabbath that say that it is - some say it has to do with Baal...

I think most worship on Sunday in honest error. But it is error. I think they are fine until someone like you, me or Vis point them differently, then they are liable for the knowledge they have gained. Once they have been shown scripturally, it's no longer an honest error, it becomes rebellious disobedience.
Too many are enamored by the false teachings that are so easy to use by twisting Paul's words. The Jews (rightly) call Christianity a cheap religion, it costs nothing, no human involvement, just believe and looooovvvvveeeee. They fear losing that comfort, and becoming accountable for their actions.
And admitting that Sunday is an error, just opens up all kinds of other errors so they refuse to admit the very plain truth. We need to pray for them every bit as much as we pray for the unbelievers.

 

[ContraMundum]

Is Sunday worship an example of an intermingling of paganism with the Christian faith?

No. He rose on the first day of the week and the scriptures describe worship and fellowship and teaching and all that good stuff occurring on the First day of the week. The evidence suggests that this First day observance was in honour of His rising.

So, unless you are accusing the Apostles in Jerusalem of being pagan, there is your answer.

There are some Christian sects who observe a seventh-day sabbath that say that it is - some say it has to do with Baal...

Who cares what they say? There are people that say the Torah is completely paganised too. Who cares? Get on with it and feed the poor.

 

[rsduncan]

Viz, Exactly like that, although not so detailed as what you linked. The paganization has been confirmed at least.

yedida, Every item in your post are among the things that nagged at me for a long time. I would read OT Scripture and see things that went against what my church was doing, but I was too much of a sheep at the time to act on it. Certainly the "cheapness" was a growing concern. HaShem has been most longsuffering and merciful over the decades - His patience is extremely L * O * N * G! I am working now to get things done in my life that will bring me into a position where I can become a more obedient servant to Him. I look forward to sharing with all in MJ as soon as the situation crystallizes...

 

[anisavta]

No. He rose on the first day of the week and the scriptures describe worship and fellowship and teaching and all that good stuff occurring on the First day of the week. The evidence suggests that this First day observance was in honour of His rising.

First day by who's time? Sundown to sundown or 12 midnight to 12 midnight?

 

[yedida]

No. He rose on the first day of the week and the scriptures describe worship and fellowship and teaching and all that good stuff occurring on the First day of the week. The evidence suggests that this First day observance was in honour of His rising.

So, unless you are accusing the Apostles in Jerusalem of being pagan, there is your answer.



Who cares what they say? There are people that say the Torah is completely paganised too. Who cares? Get on with it and feed the poor.

What I see that is wrong is not so much the gathering on Sunday as the refusal to obey the command to remember the Sabbath to keep it holy. I don't think you see the Sabbath as having been moved to Sun. I don't know much yet about Anglican (as you know) but I've heard that the EO also has services on Sat. That would be ideal!! In fact, some of my favorite weekends are the ones my friends and I welcome in the Shabbat on Fri, visit the 2 nearby MJ congegations on Sat. and join my friends at their service on Sun., now that's a blessed 3 days!! (And sometimes we even go to a 2nd little church my friends frequent on Sun evenings just to round out the weekend.) Talk about being so heavenly minded we're not much earthly good for the next few days!! It's a good thing we're all retired!

 

[ContraMundum]

The Jews (rightly) call Christianity a cheap religion, it costs nothing, no human involvement, just believe and looooovvvvveeeee.

Anyone who has or agrees with such a false judgment of the Christian faith has never followed Jesus properly, and has no idea of what Christian discipleship is. In fact, I would go as far as to say that such conclusions can only be made by people who don't know Jesus.

Christianity is way harder than keeping the outward laws of the Torah. Much harder. You don't get to discriminate how you treat or regard a person in Christianity according to someone's race or gender, like you do in Judaism. You have to love them. You have to change from the inside out, from your very core inner being. You have to pick up your cross and follow. Die if you must. You have to lose all you have. You have to lose all you are. You have to give until it hurts, and then find some more. You have to reach out to the person who spits on you. You have to give them the cloak off of your own back. You have to turn the other cheek. You have to feed the poor. You have to give up your sins.

This is the cost of discipleship. If you haven't known this kind of selfless giving than you haven't seen Christianity.

If you think Christianity is about watching Christian TV and buying Christian magnets for your fridge or owning a copy of the Purpose Driven Life then I'm afraid you're not in the game.

As for what the Jews say, who cares. They really have no place to speak on this matter. They are not "right" in their assessment of Christianity at all. They hate Jesus and they have to make arguments about Christianity to stop its powerful influence. That's their job. They're not Christians. They have no idea. They find a lot of pride in their own religion by the virtue that they do a lot of things for themselves and those they deem fit to receive charity (I'm speaking of "official" orthodox Judaism here, not individuals or Reform). Laws this, laws that. Lean this way to eat, lean that way to eat. Pray this prayer, take a few steps back, pray the next one. Lay your tefillin on this way, not that way. Your tallis is too long, get another one. Cover your wife's hair, and wear a kippa too. Turn up for food, several times a year. It's ok to believe in reincarnation, just turn up for Purim, and wear a costume, and it will all be ok. This is easier religion, in my mere assessment.

Why anyone would take the opinion of someone who actively hates Jesus as a "right" opinion about the religion of Jesus is beyond me.

 

[visionary]

Anyone who has or agrees with such a false judgment of the Christian faith has never followed Jesus properly, and has no idea of what Christian discipleship is. In fact, I would go as far as to say that such conclusions can only be made by people who don't know Jesus.

Christianity is way harder than keeping the outward laws of the Torah. Much harder. You don't get to discriminate how you treat or regard a person in Christianity according to someone's race or gender, like you do in Judaism. You have to love them. You have to change from the inside out, from your very core inner being. You have to pick up your cross and follow. Die if you must. You have to lose all you have. You have to lose all you are. You have to give until it hurts, and then find some more. You have to reach out to the person who spits on you. You have to give them the cloak off of your own back. You have to turn the other cheek. You have to feed the poor. You have to give up your sins.

This is the cost of discipleship. If you haven't known this kind of selfless giving than you haven't seen Christianity.

If you think Christianity is about watching Christian TV and buying Christian magnets for your fridge or owning a copy of the Purpose Driven Life then I'm afraid you're not in the game.

As for what the Jews say, who cares. They really have no place to speak on this matter. They are not "right" in their assessment of Christianity at all. They hate Jesus and they have to make arguments about Christianity to stop its powerful influence. That's their job. They're not Christians. They have no idea. They find a lot of pride in their own religion by the virtue that they do a lot of things for themselves and those they deem fit to receive charity (I'm speaking of "official" orthodox Judaism here, not individuals or Reform). Laws this, laws that. Lean this way to eat, lean that way to eat. Pray this prayer, take a few steps back, pray the next one. Lay your tefillin on this way, not that way. Your tallis is too long, get another one. Cover your wife's hair, and wear a kippa too. Turn up for food, several times a year. It's ok to believe in reincarnation, just turn up for Purim, and wear a costume, and it will all be ok. This is easier religion, in my mere assessment.

Why anyone would take the opinion of someone who actively hates Jesus as a "right" opinion about the religion of Jesus is beyond me.

Yeshua taught proper Judaism as He intended it in the first place... and the squiggle Roman took away from Judaism does not take Yeshua with it.. It feels like it is the same as when Joseph must have felt as he fled the scene naked.. they may take my good name and clothing, but they can not change my heart.. Yeshua must feel the same way..

 

[ContraMundum]

First day by who's time? Sundown to sundown or 12 midnight to 12 midnight?

There's no difference. He rose sometime after Sunset on "Saturday" and before sunset on "Sunday" any time between them is the first day of the week. Most likely in the night hours.

I don't see your question as remotely relevant.

What I see that is wrong is not so much the gathering on Sunday as the refusal to obey the command to remember the Sabbath to keep it holy. I don't think you see the Sabbath as having been moved to Sun. I don't know much yet about Anglican (as you know) but I've heard that the EO also has services on Sat. That would be ideal!! In fact, some of my favorite weekends are the ones my friends and I welcome in the Shabbat on Fri, visit the 2 nearby MJ congegations on Sat. and join my friends at their service on Sun., now that's a blessed 3 days!! (And sometimes we even go to a 2nd little church my friends frequent on Sun evenings just to round out the weekend.) Talk about being so heavenly minded we're not much earthly good for the next few days!! It's a good thing we're all retired!

The Sabbath is Holy, even according to the Catholic Catechism. But, according to the Torah, only Jews are to honour the Sabbath by resting. It is holy for all mankind, but the Jews alone have specific commandments for it. Community worship is not even mentioned in the Torah for the Sabbath, it is merely another day of convocation, like Pesach (where families gather) or other days. It is through tradition that corporate worship at synagogues and gathering occurs on the sabbath. Let's get that right first: Sabbath keeping is a sign for the Jews, just like circumcision is a sign for the Jews. Sabbath worship is a tradition, and a very good and fitting one too boot.

As for days of worship - all ancient the churches worship every day. We have a service every day. Not everyone comes to every service, but worship is every day. Every day of the week is sanctified by the resurrection of Jesus.

I rather like the notion that you go to church as often as you can. However, I do not think it is fair to say that Christians are "disobedient" to keeping the Sabbath. I think that a closer, more detailed look at the theology of the Cross and Resurrection will soon show that Christians are obedient to the Torah in that they do not enter into the unique Covenant between Israel and God through Moses, but through the covenant of faith through Christ, who has authority over all things, and makes all things new, and is reconciling the world to Himself. They cannot enter into the Covenant of Moses because it has not been commanded of them nor given to them. The fact of the matter is that Jesus didn't die to make the world Jewish.

Another point is that every single Christian catechism that I have even seen includes the Sabbath commandment. We even read it out at church. Its just that the Church retains that commandment because of the moral to keep time holy for God. The early Christians kept Sunday holy, the day the Lord rose from the dead. His day. This does not mean that they were disobedient, but that they obeyed the deeper meaning.

Anyway....I don't mind what other do. I just don't like people calling the church disobedient when their congregations disobey far more.

 

[ContraMundum]

Yeshua taught proper Judaism as He intended it in the first place... and the squiggle Roman took away from Judaism does not take Yeshua with it.. I feel like Joseph felt as he fled the scene naked.. they may take my good name and clothing, but they can not change my heart.. Yeshua must feel the same way..

I think Jesus made more impact than just another tzaddik. He changed everything. All creation is being renewed through His work.

 

[yedida]

Anyone who has or agrees with such a false judgment of the Christian faith has never followed Jesus properly, and has no idea of what Christian discipleship is. In fact, I would go as far as to say that such conclusions can only be made by people who don't know Jesus.

Christianity is way harder than keeping the outward laws of the Torah. Much harder. You don't get to discriminate how you treat or regard a person in Christianity according to someone's race or gender, like you do in Judaism. You have to love them. You have to change from the inside out, from your very core inner being. You have to pick up your cross and follow. Die if you must. You have to lose all you have. You have to lose all you are. You have to give until it hurts, and then find some more. You have to reach out to the person who spits on you. You have to give them the cloak off of your own back. You have to turn the other cheek. You have to feed the poor. You have to give up your sins.

This is the cost of discipleship. If you haven't known this kind of selfless giving than you haven't seen Christianity.

If you think Christianity is about watching Christian TV and buying Christian magnets for your fridge or owning a copy of the Purpose Driven Life then I'm afraid you're not in the game.

As for what the Jews say, who cares. They really have no place to speak on this matter. They are not "right" in their assessment of Christianity at all. They hate Jesus and they have to make arguments about Christianity to stop its powerful influence. That's their job. They're not Christians. They have no idea. They find a lot of pride in their own religion by the virtue that they do a lot of things for themselves and those they deem fit to receive charity (I'm speaking of "official" orthodox Judaism here, not individuals or Reform). Laws this, laws that. Lean this way to eat, lean that way to eat. Pray this prayer, take a few steps back, pray the next one. Lay your tefillin on this way, not that way. Your tallis is too long, get another one. Cover your wife's hair, and wear a kippa too. Turn up for food, several times a year. It's ok to believe in reincarnation, just turn up for Purim, and wear a costume, and it will all be ok. This is easier religion, in my mere assessment.

Why anyone would take the opinion of someone who actively hates Jesus as a "right" opinion about the religion of Jesus is beyond me.

Thank you for your thoughtful response, it was very informative.
I feel that the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy would flow over to the Christian through the ingrafting into the commonwealth of Israel, not making Gentiles Jewish, but making us a part of Israel. Those who received the Mosaic covenant were not Jews they were all of Israel. Just because some of the originals chose to assimilate into the Gentile nations doesn't change the fact that the original "sign" was given to all of Israel. Yes?

 

[anisavta]

The church has adopted Sunday morning for services. But did the first believers meet on Sunday when the work day began again or did they meet after sundown Shabbat - the first day of the week? I think my question is relevant.

 

[ContraMundum]

The church has adopted Sunday morning for services. But did the first believers meet on Sunday when the work day began again or did they meet after sundown Shabbat - the first day of the week? I think my question is relevant.

Why would the exact time of day matter, and to whom?

 

[ContraMundum]

Thank you for your thoughtful response, it was very informative.
I feel that the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy would flow over to the Christian through the ingrafting into the commonwealth of Israel, not making Gentiles Jewish, but making us a part of Israel. Those who received the Mosaic covenant were not Jews they were all of Israel. Just because some of the originals chose to assimilate into the Gentile nations doesn't change the fact that the original "sign" was given to all of Israel. Yes?

Yes, easily the best argument around.

But, ingrafted into Israel does not mean the new branch will look or grow like Israel. Trees ingrafted into each other retain their own features. The ingrafted tree grows off of the nourishment of the root branch -its blessings.

Some time ago our friend SGM4HIM posted a lovely picture of what an ingrafted tree looks like. Maybe he could do it again for us. That might help us see what Paul meant when he used that image for our instruction.

 

[anisavta]

My concern is what I grew up being told. Sunday is the Sabbath. The exchange. And the justifications for it including the old - it doesn't matter what day you worship. Translated - we can do anything we want now. G~d doesn't care.

 

[yedida]

Yes, easily the best argument around.

But, ingrafted into Israel does not mean the new branch will look or grow like Israel. Trees ingrafted into each other retain their own features. The ingrafted tree grows off of the nourishment of the root branch -its blessings.

Some time ago our friend SGM4HIM posted a lovely picture of what an ingrafted tree looks like. Maybe he could do it again for us. That might help us see what Paul meant when he used that image for our instruction.

Yes, I remember seeing the photo. It was lovely.
My line of thinking goes back to my own personal earthly life. I hate being redundant, but in case you missed the post, if I say it again, perhaps you'll understand more what my thinking is.
I'm an adopted child, I'm blue eyed, fair-skinned, blonde. My adoptive all are/were brown eyed, brown haired, dark-skinned. It was always obvious that I wasn't natural-born, but I was never treated any differently. What was expected of my bother and sisters, was expected of me, what I was allowed was also allowed of them too. I got no special treatment, they got no special treatment. I was always spoken of as being one of their four kids. When I got into trouble, they never let themselves off the hook by "bad genes." I was their kid. Though I never looked like them, I was the one that was adopted, therefore many of their idiosyncrocies (pardon spelling) kinda rubbed off on me, their lifestyle was set and established, I melded into their life, not them into mine - they had the history, I had none (at least not that I knew of) so their history became my history simply by default. I never knew my adopted grandparents (the other kids did, they were quite a bit older than me) but I knew as much about them as I could because they had a lot to do with what I was becoming (they raised my adopted parents).
I could say more, but this much I think is enough. For those of us who have sensed a calling to Torah and are doing our best to obey are doing it because it was Torah and its promises that brought us to what we are becoming today in Yeshua. We're not trying to become Jews, we're trying to be a part of Israel as best we can. God has one family, one house, one standard of godly living, we want to be a part of that.

 

[psalms 91]

No. He rose on the first day of the week and the scriptures describe worship and fellowship and teaching and all that good stuff occurring on the First day of the week. The evidence suggests that this First day observance was in honour of His rising.

So, unless you are accusing the Apostles in Jerusalem of being pagan, there is your answer.



Who cares what they say? There are people that say the Torah is completely paganised too. Who cares? Get on with it and feed the poor.

If this is so then why did the first church go to synagogue to be taught? I observe Sabbeth as they originally did.

 

[psalms 91]

I think most worship on Sunday in honest error. But it is error. I think they are fine until someone like you, me or Vis point them differently, then they are liable for the knowledge they have gained. Once they have been shown scripturally, it's no longer an honest error, it becomes rebellious disobedience.
Too many are enamored by the false teachings that are so easy to use by twisting Paul's words. The Jews (rightly) call Christianity a cheap religion, it costs nothing, no human involvement, just believe and looooovvvvveeeee. They fear losing that comfort, and becoming accountable for their actions.
And admitting that Sunday is an error, just opens up all kinds of other errors so they refuse to admit the very plain truth. We need to pray for them every bit as much as we pray for the unbelievers.

I agree, it is amazing how much error satan has put in the church, even the calander is an example

 

[psalms 91]

Thank you for your thoughtful response, it was very informative.
I feel that the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy would flow over to the Christian through the ingrafting into the commonwealth of Israel, not making Gentiles Jewish, but making us a part of Israel. Those who received the Mosaic covenant were not Jews they were all of Israel. Just because some of the originals chose to assimilate into the Gentile nations doesn't change the fact that the original "sign" was given to all of Israel. Yes?

Exactly, we were grafted in to the tree, without that we would all be lost. It is good to keep Gods appointed times, not the Jewish but Gods.