Suffering from sin: two types

Gordon Wright

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1. Suffering from the consequences of your own sin.
2. Suffering from the consequences of the sins of others.

This is a vitally important distinction which we need to keep clear, because these two must be approached in different ways.

Correct response to own sin: repent and accept God's forgiveness. There is no other solution. Just suck it up and do it.

Correct response to the sins of others: this is really complicated, but I can break down into two parts:

a) Forgiveness
b) Distrust

People get really messed up when they fail to see these two parts for what they are. If anyone tells you that to forgive implies that you trust, then he is dangerously wrong. Forgiveness looks to the past; trust looks to the future.

Forgiveness: accept consequences of past wrongs done to you, foregoing the quest for vengeance.

Distrust: be wary of future wrongs that may be done to you.

See the distinction?

Why forgive? Because failure to forgive usurps God's sovereign right of vengeance. God's vengeance is justice, because His judgment is infallible. Man's judgment is not infallible, consequently man's vengeance often compounds injustice.

Why distrust? Because trusting a mortal is idolatry. "Cursed is he who trust in man" says Jeremiah 17. The New Testament warns against false brethren, the goats among the sheep, the blind guides.

Trust God alone. That is the first Commandment.

The less you trust now, the less you will have to forgive later. Forgiveness is hard. Don't increase the burden needlessly.

When Jesus exemplified peace, He was accepting wrongs already done. When He said sell your cloak and buy a sword, that was a forward-looking statement. There is no contradiction here. Peace regarding the past and present, and self defense regarding the future.
 

Strivax

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So, I agree with a lot of this. Not all of it, but a lot of it. I particularly like the idea that we suffer from two types of sin, those of ourselves, and those of others. It seems to me one way to define sin, that it causes suffering.

People (I include myself) seem to be much more accepting of their own sins, than those of others. We judge ourselves by our intentions; we judge others by the results of their actions. If we could swap these two around; why, more than half of all sin would be ended overnight!

But we can't do that.

So, a little more empathy and a little more sympathy might not go amiss. Not to say a regular audit of how the stuff we do affects others.

Such a program won't save the world overnight, but it might make it a better place to live in, for all concerned.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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"Cursed is he who trust in man" says Jeremiah 17.
Yes, this includes economics, education, religion, politics, and medicine (doctors and pharmacy) especially dangerous. Man's ways are harmful,
YHWH'S WAYS are healing.
 
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Strivax

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Yes, this includes economics, education, religion, politics, and medicine (doctors and pharmacy) especially dangerous. Man's ways are harmful,
YHWH'S WAYS are healing.

Complete tosh. Academia spends it's whole efforts on discovering and distributing truth. And any truth is God's Truth, the way He made us and the world, whatever it's provenance.

The problem some believers have with knowledge is that it discourages credulity. Credulity being what they rely on to spread their primitive notions of faith among the ignorant. Is this your problem? If so, I advise an education, shortly forthwith. You might learn something by it.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Complete tosh. Academia spends it's whole efforts on discovering and distributing truth.
Complete tosh: "Academia spends it's whole efforts...."
In YHWH'S WORD,
in Galatians it is written all society is pernicious(very wickedly evil and not willing to leave others alone but insists on dragging all others down with them) .
In Ephesians it is written all society is subject to the prince of the power of the air (the devil),
even those who are born again "once were" sons of disobedience serving wittingly or unwittingly sin.
And in Revelation it
shows clearly all society , all the world , ends up
as in the days of NOAH (altogether wicked),
and the whole world REFUSING TO REPENT of serving demons.
YHWH'S WORD completely and utterly trumps academia and everything else of men.
 
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Emmy

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Suffering from sin: Dear Gordon Wright. Suffering from sin is always a consequence, whether from our own sins, or others. Yet we might be sure, that all sins have consequences. Those be done by others, will be paid for by others. Those done by us, will be paid for by us. God is Love, and love covers many sins. We know when we have sinned, and we always may be sure of consequences. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " Ask and you shall receive, we ask for Love and thank God and share our love with all around us. God`s Love will always wipe out our sins, we keep asking and receiving. Sins of others cannot harm us, as long as we are protected by the Love of God. God Loves us, and God always protects us. Sins of others cannot harm us, God`s Love protects us. We have one duty however, we must pray for them, God expects it from us.
We have two duties, Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. Love our neighbour as our selves. On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Our neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends. God is Love and God wants loving sons and daughters. I say this with love, Gordon. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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Strivax

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Complete tosh: "Academia spends it's whole efforts...."
In YHWH'S WORD,
in Galatians it is written all society is pernicious(very wickedly evil and not willing to leave others alone but insists on dragging all others down with them) .
In Ephesians it is written all society is subject to the prince of the power of the air (the devil),
even those who are born again "once were" sons of disobedience serving wittingly or unwittingly sin.
And in Revelation it
shows clearly all society , all the world , ends up
as in the days of NOAH (altogether wicked),
and the whole world REFUSING TO REPENT of serving demons.
YHWH'S WORD completely and utterly trumps academia and everything else of men.

References please. I have no intention of trawling the bible looking for out-of-context quotations that support your misanthropy.

And, meanwhile, perhaps you could provide a definitive distinction, with examples, of something that is secularly true, but not sacredly true, and something that is sacredly true, but not secularly true.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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Strivax

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Suffering from sin: Dear Gordon Wright. Suffering from sin is always a consequence, whether from our own sins, or others. Yet we might be sure, that all sins have consequences. Those be done by others, will be paid for by others. Those done by us, will be paid for by us.

Yet, we can be sure, this side of judgment at least, that many of our own sins are paid for by others, and many of other people's sins are paid for by us. I think this is God's way of saying 'Each should care for each other!'.

Best wishes, Strivax,
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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References please.
Galatians: key word "pernicious".
For full disclosure
see via WUEST Expanded Greek Pdf Galatians Study
but
be aware
it takes weeks to read prayerfully (usually)
and is best read with a
companion study: Lazarus and the Rich Man by Bullinger
also
a long long read , several days at least.
 
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Strivax

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Gordon Wright

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Oh. my! Some observations:

1. Academia does not spend all its energy in search for truth, except perhaps in the hard sciences. That's a whole other topic.

2. Book, chapter and verse are not enough, but they're a starting point. First identify the vicinity, then look at the context.

2a. That said, sometimes a point has so much support in the Bible that it's impractical to list it all. Just say,"here are some examples" and then give some examples. If that doesn't satisfy the disputant, that's his problem.
 
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