Suffering and sin in the world....

[stumpjumper]

Romans 5: 12-16

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.


​

Sin and suffering in the world come from freedom: both moral and natural. we see in Romans 5 that sin was in the world when there was no law but it was not imputed without the law. The sin comes from the freedom in which it was neccesary for God to create free, rational beings. For us to be truly free, rational creatures capable of loving God and loving each other, natural freedom is neccesary. There must be an environment or external world in which we can be aware of others, ourselves, and God. If that environment did not exist in a state of relative freedom, we would not be free and not capable of accepting God's love or loving God or others.


Many times Romans 5 is used to show that Adam was a real person in history but that is missing the main point of the passage. We are new creations in Christ because that is where our eternal life lies. We all die in Adam because Adam represents our earthly life and denotes mankind in Genesis. Sin comes from freedom and it was in the world before the law. We are in a process of becoming (individually and collectively) what God wants us to be and that can only be done if there is freedom and room to grow.

If we as Christians accept that we have the freedom to make our own moral choices, then why is it so difficult for some to accept this very same freedom as the method of our biological origin?

 

[FreezBee]

Many times Romans 5 is used to show that Adam was a real person in history but that is missing the main point of the passage. We are new creations in Christ because that is where our eternal life lies. We all die in Adam because Adam represents our earthly life and denotes mankind in Genesis. Sin comes from freedom and it was in the world before the law. We are in a process of becoming (individually and collectively) what God wants us to be and that can only be done if there is freedom and room to grow.
If we as Christians accept that we have the freedom to make our own moral choices, then why is it so difficult for some to accept this very same freedom as the method of our biological origin?

As usual, I fully agree with you, and wonder why others cant see things as simple as this.

Many Christians appear to me to be too concerned with defending Biblical literalism, and certainly many attacks on the Bible are unfair. But we should not in the process forget that strictly speaking it does not matter whether the earth is 6,000 years old or 25 billion years old.

We live here and now, today, that's the world as created for us, and we have to act here and now.


- FreezBee

 

[gluadys]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to stumpjumper again."

You hit the nail on the head.

 

[billwald]

Non sequitur - the cited passage says nothing about suffering, only sin.

 

[stumpjumper]

Non sequitur - the cited passage says nothing about suffering, only sin.

Does not suffering come from freedom?

If it does then it does follow. If not then create your own theodicy with a snazzy title.

 

[stumpjumper]

What nobody wants to discuss this?

Well then you can't say that evolution contradicts the Christian faith because of how it says that sin has come into the world

We'll be watching....

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

So you think Adam was a fake? You think Sin and suffering is not a result of disobedience to God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? You think it is because of freedom?

 

[stumpjumper]

So you think Adam was a fake? You think Sin and suffering is not a result of disobedience to God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? You think it is because of freedom?

Either way it is because of freedom.

Adamah was also used in Genesis to denote mankind and since mankind is real I believe Adam is real.

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

So you beleive there was not a man called Adam formed out of the ground as the first human, then fallen back to sleep, had a rib taken out and women mad out of him called Eve?

 

[stumpjumper]

So you beleive there was not a man called Adam formed out of the ground as the first human, then fallen back to sleep, had a rib taken out and women mad out of him called Eve?

That would be a no for me. I have read some TE's view that there was a Paradisal man and woman or men and women but not I.

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

Then I guess our discussion is over.

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

Actually the discussion isn't over.

Jesus Christ is real. Jesus Christ is not only real, He is God. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. There is one God.

Adam was created by God, including Jesus. God didn't gradually bring some homomorphing human being out of grape apes. Adam and Eve were created. Disobeyed God. and were thrown out of the Garden of Eden.

1 Tim 2:13 tells us Adam was created first. Verse 14 tells us They sinned.

Romans 5 doesn't tell us that Adam didn't exist, but in fact DOES tell us he existed. It tell us death reigned from Adam on. What does it tell us about Christ, the God of the Universe? It tells us that life comes through Christ.

1 Cor 15 doesn't tell us because we are human we die. It tells us because death entered into this world through Adam. So what does it tell us about Christ? 1 Cor 15 tells us that Salvation is through Christ God. We aren't made alive through some prophet. We are made alive through God the Son.

Sin and suffering isn't a result of freedom. If you want to claim it was because of slavery. Slavery to the evil desires that we could do things better than God. Slavery to the evil thoughts that God doesn't know everything. Slavery to the evil thoughts that we are gods. Slavery to the thoughts that Jesus is a joke, the holy spirit is corrupt and the father is a wimp.

Sin and suffering isn't a result of freedom. They were result of disobedience to God's command.

 

[Critias]

Wildlife, it is a waste of breathe to try and show them the truth. They don't want truth, they don't want sound doctrine. Their ears itch and they aim to please their ears.

 

[stumpjumper]

Wildlife, it is a waste of breathe to try and show them the truth. They don't want truth, they don't want sound doctrine. Their ears itch and they aim to please their ears.

You would prefer not to address the OP?

Its more edifying to ramble on about sound doctrine? Hmm

 

[stumpjumper]

Actually the discussion isn't over.
Jesus Christ is real. Jesus Christ is not only real, He is God. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. There is one God.

I completely agree.

Adam was created by God, including Jesus. God didn't gradually bring some homomorphing human being out of grape apes. Adam and Eve were created. Disobeyed God. and were thrown out of the Garden of Eden.

Nobody is saying that man was not created by God it is the method of creation that is generally accepted to have been more gradual.

1 Tim 2:13 tells us Adam was created first. Verse 14 tells us They sinned.

Romans 5 doesn't tell us that Adam didn't exist, but in fact DOES tell us he existed. It tell us death reigned from Adam on. What does it tell us about Christ, the God of the Universe? It tells us that life comes through Christ.

Adam is both a common and proper noun in Genesis. If you doubt that look up the etymology of the word and notice Genesis 1:26. Adam was used to denote mankind of as a proper noun as part of the individual story. It is easy to go from common to proper (ie "mankind" to "man" but it is quite a stretch to go from using a name of an individual person to denote all mankind),

Life comes through Christ because we will be a new creation in Christ and our human life (mankind, adamah will fall away) look at 2 Corinthians 5 for the reconciliation.

1 Cor 15 doesn't tell us because we are human we die. It tells us because death entered into this world through Adam. So what does it tell us about Christ? 1 Cor 15 tells us that Salvation is through Christ God. We aren't made alive through some prophet. We are made alive through God the Son.

Nobody said Christ is not the Word of God. You are creating strawmen here.

Sin and suffering isn't a result of freedom. They were result of disobedience to God's command.

Disobedience comes from "free will" even in your literal reading. Free will means freedom.

 

[Critias]

You would prefer not to address the OP?

Its more edifying to ramble on about sound doctrine? Hmm

I believe that no matter what discussion you and I have, no agreeance will be found. Instead, you support for the removal of the doctrine of sin as it is taught in the Bible. I think you just want to argue not learn or discuss anything. That is, afterall, all that happens in these forums: arguing.

 

[stumpjumper]

I believe that no matter what discussion you and I have, no agreeance will be found. Instead, you support for the removal of the doctrine of sin as it is taught in the Bible. I think you just want to argue not learn or discuss anything. That is, afterall, all that happens in these forums: arguing.

Well Critias I think I am pretty harmless and usually very courteous and friendly. The fact is that reality does not change as recent court cases show us and in my OP I am showing that you do not have to remove the Biblical origin of sin by accepting evolution.

Thats all brother. Have a Merry Christmas.

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

Nobody is saying that man was not created by God it is the method of creation that is generally accepted to have been more gradual.

Adam is both a common and proper noun in Genesis. If you doubt that look up the etymology of the word and notice Genesis 1:26. Adam was used to denote mankind of as a proper noun as part of the individual story. It is easy to go from common to proper (ie "mankind" to "man" but it is quite a stretch to go from using a name of an individual person to denote all mankind),

My problem comes from the issue of sin and death directly. If you want to add thorns and thistles and child birth in their as well, I don't mind either. Once people start saying Adam was some arbitrary name for mankind and that how sin came to was just a storytell to help us understand we are we sin, then I tend to have problems.

Saying that Adam was not real seems to do away with the fact that his days were numbered in years. Saying that Adam was not real seems to contradict Paul when he says that through Adam all sinned. Adam is still a focal point in those scriptures, whether others want to down play him.

I'm not saying I comprehend what happened. I can't comprehend that theistic evolutionist can explain how eternal life will work or how no death happens as the Bible says after the endtimes or how lambs will lie with lions. I certainly can't explain it but I believe it will be so. I don't look at it through literalist eyes either. I'm a contextualist as best I can be. And I do listen to the opposing views as best I can.

Can I believe evolution existed? yes. Can I believe in a "old" earth? sure. Can I believe that man was part of evolutionary process? It would have to take an act of God to even allow me to just entertain the idea that the Bible tells us this, because contextually it is far from it.

I can see contextually how a person could get that the earth is older than a few thousand years. I can't see contextually how a person can get adam wasn't the first human.

Adam was unique. Adam wasn't ashamed. He was without sin. What is sin? It is basically disobedience to God's command. Yes. Man had a free will. He wasn't made to be a robot. Robots obey commands no matter what. God purposely made man to be able to willfully choose to obey and love Him.

Back to Adam. I'm don't understand the significance of nakedness and unashamed as I probably should. But they represent a status to man that was special. Everything made was centered around entrance of man into this world. The stars. The planets. The oceans. The fish. The birds. The mammals. Etc. All created for man. Not randomly made without order. Order was perfectly accomplished. Science can not see purposeful order. It can not see God at work for mankind.

Back to Adam. When Adam sinned. Things happened that disrupted the cycle of God's creation. But purposefulness was still designed into this. Christ, before Adam sinned was appointed to die for all of man before the universe was created. For the second Adam was to bring life, while the first brought death.

Death and sin are two things that I don't see that theistic evolutionist have an answer for one, everything was in order of its creation in Genesis.

Order of what was created/God did:
1. day and night
2.expanse seperating water from water called sky. (note: no evolutionist that I know of talks about the water expanse in the sky. Do they?)
3.land
4.sun moon stars
5. fish and fowl
6. mammals and man
7.garden of eden
8. woman
9. snakes crawls now
10. painful childbirth
11. thorns and thistles
12. hard larbor to work for food.
13. garmets to cover their nakedness.

 

[zensaber]

well acording to the bible the Earth is 6 thousand years old but you don't have to be some sort of scientist to see that they counted years and probly days different then we do today. I can't rember if it was rome or greece but the 12 month 24 hour day thing wasn't created till near the end of the Bible

 

[stumpjumper]

My problem comes from the issue of sin and death directly. If you want to add thorns and thistles and child birth in their as well, I don't mind either. Once people start saying Adam was some arbitrary name for mankind and that how sin came to was just a storytell to help us understand we are we sin, then I tend to have problems.

Saying that Adam was not real seems to do away with the fact that his days were numbered in years. Saying that Adam was not real seems to contradict Paul when he says that through Adam all sinned. Adam is still a focal point in those scriptures, whether others want to down play him.

I'm not saying I comprehend what happened. I can't comprehend that theistic evolutionist can explain how eternal life will work or how no death happens as the Bible says after the endtimes or how lambs will lie with lions. I certainly can't explain it but I believe it will be so. I don't look at it through literalist eyes either. I'm a contextualist as best I can be. And I do listen to the opposing views as best I can.

Well there are, at least, two ways to look at the scriptural issue. What I believe is that Genesis 1-11 is generally a mythological creation story written to show our ontological origin and how sin came into the world and what God would have to do to rid the world of sin (Noah's flood).

Interestingly, you find these early Chapters of Genesis culminating in the Noachic covenant: “Never again will I doom the earth because of man, since the desires of man’s heart are evil from the start, nor will I ever again strike down all living things as I have done.” (Genesis 8:21).

The above is a covenant of grace and it was through that covenant that Abraham was called to bless the world. The call of Abraham was directly after that covenant. I view Genesis 1-11 as a contrast to the Babylonian creation myths and accept the fact that it was redacted from four different authors and sources. This is the mainstream view of the Torah's origin.

If you follow that Moses wrote the Torah and that God verbally inspired it this exegesis might be interesting: http://www.solbaram.org/articles/genevo.html

I don't agree in a lot of areas with his view of the Torah but it is a more conservative way to read Genesis that fits in with verbal inspiration.

Can I believe evolution existed? yes. Can I believe in a "old" earth? sure. Can I believe that man was part of evolutionary process? It would have to take an act of God to even allow me to just entertain the idea that the Bible tells us this, because contextually it is far from it.

I can see contextually how a person could get that the earth is older than a few thousand years. I can't see contextually how a person can get adam wasn't the first human.

The Out of Africa model is the most accurate model of the origin of homo-sapiens and there is a theory that all human life descended from just a few isolated people. Is it possible that these isolated people had a unique relationship with God that they broke from their disobedience? Sure.

I doubt we will ever know in this life. But regardless you could have a literal fall from grace by the act of a paradisal man and woman or men and women. A literal reading of the creation narrative and a young earth is out the window however. You only have these contextual problems when you believe that the truth of the narrative must be scientifically accurate. The truths in my opinion are theological truths.

Adam was unique. Adam wasn't ashamed. He was without sin. What is sin? It is basically disobedience to God's command. Yes. Man had a free will. He wasn't made to be a robot. Robots obey commands no matter what. God purposely made man to be able to willfully choose to obey and love Him.

We could get into a very lengthy discussion about original sin, which is not inherited from Adam but is simply a disposition to sin and disobey God. Original sin is our estrangement from God and it exists because of the fact that there is moral and natural freedom in our world.

You accept that humans have freedom because God wanted to love and be loved and have a relationship with others that are capable of sharing in that relationship. A TE simply accepts that it was through freedom and secondary causes that God brought the physical universe into existence.

I disagree with the rest of your position and you will also not find those beliefs in the Bible about the disruption of earths cycle and the emergence of natural disasters from the eating of the Tree of Knowledge. Those ideas are not in Genesis and are read into the story by others.