Struggling with certain aspects of faith

[bchris02]

I was raised strict Independent Fundamental Baptist. After getting out of my parents house I walked away from church for a while but then came back to more moderate Southern Baptist theology. I now attend a non-denominational church that is pretty much Southern Baptist in its beliefs.

There are a couple of issues I have and I am looking for some perspective on whether or not I am wrong to feel this way. Over the past year there have been a few times I've considered simply walking away from the church entirely because of these issues.

First, I don't feel that I can support the GOP culture wars. That puts me at great odds with most Baptists as well as the broader evangelical Christian world, but I feel secular government is a good thing and that religious piety and convictions should be up to the individual believer. Christian moral values should be promoted by the church and in the home and not the government. I don't believe that America is even a nation in the Biblical sense and even if it was, nowhere in Scripture does God command that Christians establish Christian government in the earth. I also tend to favor the liberal perspective on a lot of political issues and I don't really see much that is Christ-like about the Republican Party once you look beyond the wedge issues of marriage and abortion. I have had people question my faith, call me a baby murderer, etc because of my political leanings (I don't even support abortion). I believe the response of many prominent Christian Right activists to the same-sex marriage decision that was full of anger and apocalyptic predictions with little grace or compassion has pushed a lot of people away from the Gospel. Am I wrong to feel this way? I have had numerous people tell me there is absolutely no compromising with the liberals and to be sympathetic to the liberal viewpoints is to deny God's word, but is this really the case? From reading the Gospels, I have a feeling that if Jesus was walking the earth today He wouldn't be a Republican. The evangelical Church's commitment to the GOP culture war really has me on the edge of walking away.

Secondly, I am a scientifically minded person and I really struggle with the church's stance against modern science, denying everything from evolution to climate change. I have done plenty of research on this subject and am very familiar with Answers in Genesis, but to me that doesn't settle the issue. It's not so much the issue of evolution for me as it is the pressure to believe in a young earth and a global flood ca 2000 BCE. Both have been extensively refuted by modern science and even recorded history. Personally, I don't think a person is required to believe in a young earth and global flood in order to believe what Genesis says. Most of the evangelical world however would disagree with that.

There are other issues that I am struggling with such as the end times, Israel, and spiritual gifts among others, but politics and origins are two big issues for me right now. Any thoughts or insight into this? Thanks for any replies.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

First, I don't feel that I can support the GOP culture wars. That puts me at great odds with most Baptists as well as the broader evangelical Christian world, but I feel secular government is a good thing and that religious piety and convictions should be up to the individual believer.

Well, for one thing, Baptists are under no misconception that any degree of piety in the secular government has any power to save a soul. However, all laws are based on some manner of moral value. There's no denying this. We make laws against murder because we find it morally wrong. We make laws against theft for the same reason, and so forth. The argument that religious morality should not be imputed into secular government is not only patently false, but the argument, itself, is a statement of religious morality. To ban Christian values from public governance is to legislate secular and atheistic values, instead. What you parrot is actually the mantra of those who wish to isolate us, to confine everything we believe to a little box that not only does not participate in public governance, but cannot even present itself publicly. Such people wish to keep us out of sight and out of mind.

(I don't even support abortion).

Yes, you do. If you vote for politicians who support abortion, then you support abortion.

I believe the response of many prominent Christian Right activists to the same-sex marriage decision that was full of anger and apocalyptic predictions with little grace or compassion has pushed a lot of people away from the Gospel.

Setting aside the abomination of homosexuality for a minute, what the U.S. Supreme Court did goes well beyond even Biblical morality to strike at the very heart of our Constitution. Democracy, itself, was overruled. The people lost their ability to govern themselves, and there is no law and no constitutional amendment that can overcome a decision made by a panel of judges who refuse to follow the mandate that was given them by our democracy. The people have no recourse short of armed insurrection to bring about their own self-determination. That should scare anyone in this allegedly self-governing country, regardless of how they stand on the morality of homosexuality.

As far as our stand pushing people farther away from the gospel, all I can say is that we can only present the Biblical position for what it is. If we sugar-coat it to make it more palatable to those who hate it, then we have not succeeded in winning them to the gospel when we win them to our side, because our side would not then be the gospel of Christ. The early Christians presented the gospel exactly as it was intended by God, and they not only pushed people away by their strong message, but they drove people to kill these outspoken believers. Were they wrong? Absolutely not! This world is full of people who vociferously hate God, and if you present the truth about God in all honesty, then they will hate you, too. They killed Jesus, and if you genuinely spread the message of Christ, then you, too, may have them wanting to kill you. Only a soft, empty message fails to have this effect.

The evangelical Church's commitment to the GOP culture war really has me on the edge of walking away.

You already have walked away.

Secondly, I am a scientifically minded person and I really struggle with the church's stance against modern science, denying everything from evolution to climate change... It's not so much the issue of evolution for me as it is the pressure to believe in a young earth and a global flood ca 2000 BCE. Both have been extensively refuted by modern science and even recorded history. Personally, I don't think a person is required to believe in a young earth and global flood in order to believe what Genesis says.

It's not BCE. It's BC. It means, "Before Christ." You say you're on the verge of walking away, but let's not play games. You already walked away. Not even a Christian on the verge, as it were, uses the term, "BCE."

Secondly, I am a scientist. I struggle against a crazy world that has polluted modern science with its own mythology, which, at the heart of it, claims the very same manner for the origin of life as did ancient Greek and Roman mythologies. Climate change is another matter, and I've seen believers on both sides of that one, but there's no reason any self-respecting scientist should expect that an archaebacterium should magically find its own way to becoming a homo sapiens through random mutations and environmental abuse and a whole heck of a little time. Yes, I said "little." Five hundred million years is nothing compared to the order of magnitude of increased complexity from primordial ooze to human. It's absolutely trivial. At that rate, one should expect monkeys to evolve into humans at the rate of several times per second. Naturalistic origins can only be accepted by those who willingly blind themselves to the complexity of life. Right now, you have an enzyme with two legs, literally walking down the length of a neural axon, one step at a time, carrying a packet of neurotransmitters on its back, just for the purpose of resupplying a synapse so you can use that synapse for the very purpose of calling that microscopic robot a product of dumb luck. Now that's irony.

Don't you need a young Earth? Otherwise, there is no Garden of Eden, no first human, no Fall of Man, and that equals no original sin and no need for a savior. Instead, you have a haphazard God waiting for slime to magically design itself into the image of God, only to eat the fruit from the forbidden tree that also magically designed itself from dirt. Naturalistic origins is not only incompatible with honest science, but it's naturally incompatible with Christianity.

There are other issues that I am struggling with such as the end times, Israel, and spiritual gifts among others, but politics and origins are two big issues for me right now.

You're only struggling with one thing, and one thing, only. It's your relationship with Christ. You're waging a war against God, and nothing you mentioned, above, can be resolved until you reconcile with your maker. There's nothing wrong with the evidence, only the interpretation of the evidence. There's nothing wrong with the gospel that believers present, only your reaction against that gospel. You're not on the verge of walking away; you're already gone. For your sake, I hope you find your way to salvation. I don't want you to remain lost, and I can't afford to politely lie to you to make you feel better.

 

[inlight12]

I'd just make two points to reply your question. Everything else is said by the poster before me. There are many ways to determine if something is going right or wrong. But a quick way is this. "A person or a group of people can be guided by only one of the two entities. God or pride." Now the pursuit of the answer about which group is actually led by God can itself be subjective, but I hope you will recognize the lies and avoid them. Second thing is, I am very confident that the popular image of all liberals being scientifically minded is not only false, but also there are more scientists among your average GOP than there are among average liberals. Just ask any liberal why the Fourier transform of an impulse train is another impulse train in frequency domain. You'd be lucky, if you get an answer explained with a concept other than privilege and oppression. Among GOP you may not find many that can answer that. But at least they can reasonably explain many technological devices that they use.

 

[twin1954]

I can't speak to the science stuff as I am an ignorant bumpkin(I say that in all seriousness not as sarcasm) but your problem isn't really with the political but the spiritual. As a lifelong Republican and ultra conservative, I make Rush Limbaugh look like a liberal, I recognize that there is some truth in your perspective on political things. In actuality there is little difference between the parties as both are interested in only one thing, power. Therefore the issue isn't one of policy or politics but one of spiritual realities. I would reiterate what has been said concerning the, though manifestly greatly diminished, freedom of the people in this Constitutional Republic that we live in. If the people of God keep silent then the atheists and morally depraved will rule.

What you must do is business with Christ. You must deal with His reality concerning truth and seek to know Him and yourself as a sinner in need of mercy first. All the other stuff is nothing but a wall which you have thrown up in order to not deal with His truth. If you ever find out who He is and who you are all the other stuff will find its way to nothingness.

 

[bchris02]

So what I am gathering here is being a Republican is pretty much essential to being a Christian? Being that I don't support most of the things the current Republican Party stands for, I have already walked away? That makes sense.

In regards to a young earth, believing in that is a complete matter of faith. I have an easier time however believing in a 10-20,000 yr old earth than I do Ussher's chronology. 6,000 years with a flood 2,000 years ago would also mean much of the recorded history we have from antiquity other than the Bible is wrong, never mind the science.

 

[Soyeong]

While I think the values of the Republican Party more closely correspond to Christian values than the Democratic party, the Republican Party is by no means the Christian Party. More often than not, I see voting as being about who I'd prefer not to have in office rather than supporting the other candidate, so if I could make negative votes instead, then I would. I can't get behind anyone who supports the slaughter of millions of babies, so I usually end up voting Republican even if I don't support all of their other views. All laws are about legislating morality, so don't buy into the lie that legislating morality is something we shouldn't do.

I believe the response of many prominent Christian Right activists to the same-sex marriage decision that was full of anger and apocalyptic predictions with little grace or compassion has pushed a lot of people away from the Gospel. Am I wrong to feel this way?

You're free to feel how you do if you think Christians are reacting poorly to something, but if they are walking away from the truth because the Bible teaches against their personal values, then that's their choice. The Bible should not conform to their values, but rather their values should conform to the Bible.

I have a feeling that if Jesus was walking the earth today He wouldn't be a Republican.

I'm in full agreement, God isn't on the side of any particular political party, but rather it is about whether we are on His side.

Don't you need a young Earth? Otherwise, there is no Garden of Eden, no first human, no Fall of Man, and that equals no original sin and no need for a savior. Instead, you have a haphazard God waiting for slime to magically design itself into the image of God, only to eat the fruit from the forbidden tree that also magically designed itself from dirt. Naturalistic origins is not only incompatible with honest science, but it's naturally incompatible with Christianity.

There are many Christians who are Theistic Evolutionist, who see Evolution as being compatible with the Bible, with Evolution essentially being God's intelligent design. There are of course other Christians who disagree with them, but it might be worth looking into.

 

[High Fidelity]

The Republican party is not essential to being a Christian.

If I was to move to the US then I'd struggle in good conscience to vote for the Republican party for exactly the same reasons you stated. I have a Biblical view of marriage and I am against abortion, but outside of that I really don't see anything that should make me vote Republican.

It may just be that you need to find a church with a more Christ-like congregation. That's not to say people that vote Republican aren't Christ-like, not at all, but to be actively scolded and insulted because of disagreement on political terms simply isn't acceptable.
I'd say speak to the Pastor about it, but something tells me that may not help and may only compound the problem.

As far as Genesis goes... Growing up as an IFB you will probably be aware of the position of inerrancy of scripture. That's my position too. I think there's a lot in this world that we simply can't understand and never will. The fact that it's difficult to look at the world and consider it hard or impossible to understand that it's 6-10,000 years old doesn't mean we shouldn't, I think it's a matter of faith in the inerrancy and authority of scripture.

I struggle to believe that God would allow for an error that huge in the first chapters of the first book in the most important reading a man can do. If someone perceives the integrity to be weak or wrong from the very beginning, why would they believe any of the rest?

 

[Albion]

The Republican party is not essential to being a Christian.

That's not what Soyeong wrote. The point was that the Republican Party tends to uphold Christian values more often than does the Democratic Party--a point that most people would acknowledge as true. Many Democrats, in fact, would lament that this is the case, being that they disdain what they consider a mixing of religion and politics.

 

[inlight12]

So what I am gathering here is being a Republican is pretty much essential to being a Christian? Being that I don't support most of the things the current Republican Party stands for, I have already walked away? That makes sense.

In regards to a young earth, believing in that is a complete matter of faith. I have an easier time however believing in a 10-20,000 yr old earth than I do Ussher's chronology. 6,000 years with a flood 2,000 years ago would also mean much of the recorded history we have from antiquity other than the Bible is wrong, never mind the science.

Go then and make the Christian Party of America. That is my sincere suggestion for you.

 

[Albion]

Go then and make the Christian Party of America. That is my sincere suggestion for you.

Are you sure you even read that OP? The writer is the one who said: "First, I don't feel that I can support the GOP culture wars. That puts me at great odds with most Baptists as well as the broader evangelical Christian world, but I feel secular government is a good thing and that religious piety and convictions should be up to the individual believer. Christian moral values should be promoted by the church and in the home and not the government."

 

[bchris02]

While I think the values of the Republican Party more closely correspond to Christian values than the Democratic party, the Republican Party is by no means the Christian Party. More often than not, I see voting as being about who I'd prefer not to have in office rather than supporting the other candidate, so if I could make negative votes instead, then I would. I can't get behind anyone who supports the slaughter of millions of babies, so I usually end up voting Republican even if I don't support all of their other views. All laws are about legislating morality, so don't buy into the lie that legislating morality is something we shouldn't do.

For most of my life I have voted Republican solely on the issue of abortion. I wanted to vote for Obama in 2008 and in 2012, but I held my nose and voted GOP because I thought I was doing the right thing on abortion. Growing up in church it was preached that God would hold anybody who voted for a Democrat in any election personally responsible for every aborted baby's death throughout all history. Personally I can't see this applying to state and local elections where abortion usually isn't a factor. When it comes to Presidential elections I am not sure that even applies being that GOP candidates only talk about the issue when running for office and after they are elected it gets put on the back-burner. Meanwhile, Democratic policies like Obamacare will help reduce the number of abortions and I can't help but see that as a good thing.

You're free to feel how you do if you think Christians are reacting poorly to something, but if they are walking away from the truth because the Bible teaches against their personal values, then that's their choice. The Bible should not conform to their values, but rather their values should conform to the Bible.

Proclaiming marriage as between a man and a woman is one thing and is sticking to what the Bible says. Claiming that God is going to completely destroy America because of the Supreme Court decision is not Biblical and is in fact emotional speculation based on a possible misinterpretation of Genesis 19. Every time a national disaster happens it seems like some right-wing activist is blaming it on homosexual sin in our society as if that is the only sin God really cares about. The over the top anger many believers displayed on social media as well as participating in activities such as burning rainbow flags were not appropriate in my opinion and that is what is pushing people away from the Gospel.

As for predictions of coming persecution, I think the link below makes many great points. In addition, the same Supreme Court that legalized same-sex marriage also sided with Hobby Lobby and the Westboro Baptist Church. I don't see religious liberty in any real danger in this country.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/godisn...ecution-complex-youre-embarrassing-the-faith/

There are many Christians who are Theistic Evolutionist, who see Evolution as being compatible with the Bible, with Evolution essentially being God's intelligent design. There are of course other Christians who disagree with them, but it might be worth looking into.

I agree with this. I think there is definitely a middle ground to be found where science and the Bible are in agreement. What that middle ground is, I am unsure of. I only know that I have difficulty when it comes to Ussher's chronology being that the flood is too recent. We have historical evidence of cultures and events that existed prior to 2000 BC. The oldest writings we have are estimated to have been written sometime between 6000 and 7000 BC so if the flood was global and destroyed everything as the Bible claims, it would have had to occurred before then.

 

[Goodbook]

Ok. First thing. I am not american but your first thing is not wrong to feel this way. However since you live in america i understand the pressure to be one or the other.
However you right Jesus said render to caesar what is caesars and to God what is Gods.

Second thing. Answers in Genesis is actually a very good site. I did a bit of my own research when struggling with this question, I came to the conclusion that scrientists have a blinkered view on the origins of earth and I would rather trust in God, who is not a liar. The flood there is evidence all around us...the seas, fossils which were made by the flood etc. carbon dating, radio dating is not as what it seems. Those are percentages and esitmates only.

I am sorry you caught up in the IFB i would call it a cult. read your Bible and stay close to Jesus.

 

[twin1954]

So what I am gathering here is being a Republican is pretty much essential to being a Christian? Being that I don't support most of the things the current Republican Party stands for, I have already walked away? That makes sense.

In regards to a young earth, believing in that is a complete matter of faith. I have an easier time however believing in a 10-20,000 yr old earth than I do Ussher's chronology. 6,000 years with a flood 2,000 years ago would also mean much of the recorded history we have from antiquity other than the Bible is wrong, never mind the science.

A political party has nothing to do with being a believer. A believer is ine who rests in Christ and his worldview is shaped by that faith. It cannot be any other way. Why I said that you need to do business with Christ is because you are making issues out of things that aren't spiritual issues. It is a common wall people throw up in order to not have to deal with the true eternal nature of spiritual things. They want to argue creation, climate change, Nephilim and every other question that they can think of in order to not do business with sin and the Savior in actuality. Get off of the political and science, liberal or conservative and deal with spiritual truth. All this world and everything in it is destined to be burned but your soul and its destiny is eternal.

Before you go off on tangents that have no eternal bearing be sure that you have the eternal set.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

I was raised strict Independent Fundamental Baptist. After getting out of my parents house I walked away from church for a while but then came back to more moderate Southern Baptist theology. I now attend a non-denominational church that is pretty much Southern Baptist in its beliefs.

There are a couple of issues I have and I am looking for some perspective on whether or not I am wrong to feel this way. Over the past year there have been a few times I've considered simply walking away from the church entirely because of these issues.

First, I don't feel that I can support the GOP culture wars. That puts me at great odds with most Baptists as well as the broader evangelical Christian world, but I feel secular government is a good thing and that religious piety and convictions should be up to the individual believer. Christian moral values should be promoted by the church and in the home and not the government. I don't believe that America is even a nation in the Biblical sense and even if it was, nowhere in Scripture does God command that Christians establish Christian government in the earth. I also tend to favor the liberal perspective on a lot of political issues and I don't really see much that is Christ-like about the Republican Party once you look beyond the wedge issues of marriage and abortion. I have had people question my faith, call me a baby murderer, etc because of my political leanings (I don't even support abortion). I believe the response of many prominent Christian Right activists to the same-sex marriage decision that was full of anger and apocalyptic predictions with little grace or compassion has pushed a lot of people away from the Gospel. Am I wrong to feel this way? I have had numerous people tell me there is absolutely no compromising with the liberals and to be sympathetic to the liberal viewpoints is to deny God's word, but is this really the case? From reading the Gospels, I have a feeling that if Jesus was walking the earth today He wouldn't be a Republican. The evangelical Church's commitment to the GOP culture war really has me on the edge of walking away.

Secondly, I am a scientifically minded person and I really struggle with the church's stance against modern science, denying everything from evolution to climate change. I have done plenty of research on this subject and am very familiar with Answers in Genesis, but to me that doesn't settle the issue. It's not so much the issue of evolution for me as it is the pressure to believe in a young earth and a global flood ca 2000 BCE. Both have been extensively refuted by modern science and even recorded history. Personally, I don't think a person is required to believe in a young earth and global flood in order to believe what Genesis says. Most of the evangelical world however would disagree with that.

There are other issues that I am struggling with such as the end times, Israel, and spiritual gifts among others, but politics and origins are two big issues for me right now. Any thoughts or insight into this? Thanks for any replies.

Thank you for sharing with us your concerns—and welcome to Christian forums! I am a conservative, evangelical Christian who believes that the U.S. Republican Party is dangerous to both the United States and to the Christians who live here. I believe this because the Republican Party has an entrenched history of voting against moral decency. They vigorously oppose the values that Jesus taught and practiced throughout His earthly ministry—even the value of loving one’s neighbor! Indeed, the Republican Party has vigorously opposed every major piece of legislation written to help our neighbors most seriously in need—even life-saving medical care, Social Security, Medicare, Medical, Food Stamps, prohibitions against child labor, prohibitions against a dangerous working environment, a livable minimum wage, etc. etc. etc!

Moreover, Republican Christians, for the most part, have vigorously opposed, and are continuing to vigorously oppose, the truth that God has chosen to manifest to us through the sciences—especially the life and earth sciences. The consequence of this is that they are making the Bible appear to be a farce—indeed, such a radical farce that every year millions of young people are rejecting the Bible as ridiculous fiction that contradicts not only what is known from science, but also known from God-given common sense.

The very same Republicans who are castigating homosexuals for their sexually perverse behavior are themselves guilty of sins no less perverse and no less contrary to the fundamental teachings of the Bible.

Our government, however, is supposed to be a government of the people, for the people, and by the people—and each one of us who are Christians should carefully and prayerfully study the Bible to learn the values that it teaches—and based upon that careful and prayerful study, support legislation that supports those values.

 

[crixus]

Well, for one thing, Baptists are under no misconception that any degree of piety in the secular government has any power to save a soul. However, all laws are based on some manner of moral value. There's no denying this. We make laws against murder because we find it morally wrong. We make laws against theft for the same reason, and so forth. The argument that religious morality should not be imputed into secular government is not only patently false, but the argument, itself, is a statement of religious morality. To ban Christian values from public governance is to legislate secular and atheistic values, instead. What you parrot is actually the mantra of those who wish to isolate us, to confine everything we believe to a little box that not only does not participate in public governance, but cannot even present itself publicly. Such people wish to keep us out of sight and out of mind.


Yes, you do. If you vote for politicians who support abortion, then you support abortion.



Setting aside the abomination of homosexuality for a minute, what the U.S. Supreme Court did goes well beyond even Biblical morality to strike at the very heart of our Constitution. Democracy, itself, was overruled. The people lost their ability to govern themselves, and there is no law and no constitutional amendment that can overcome a decision made by a panel of judges who refuse to follow the mandate that was given them by our democracy. The people have no recourse short of armed insurrection to bring about their own self-determination. That should scare anyone in this allegedly self-governing country, regardless of how they stand on the morality of homosexuality.

As far as our stand pushing people farther away from the gospel, all I can say is that we can only present the Biblical position for what it is. If we sugar-coat it to make it more palatable to those who hate it, then we have not succeeded in winning them to the gospel when we win them to our side, because our side would not then be the gospel of Christ. The early Christians presented the gospel exactly as it was intended by God, and they not only pushed people away by their strong message, but they drove people to kill these outspoken believers. Were they wrong? Absolutely not! This world is full of people who vociferously hate God, and if you present the truth about God in all honesty, then they will hate you, too. They killed Jesus, and if you genuinely spread the message of Christ, then you, too, may have them wanting to kill you. Only a soft, empty message fails to have this effect.


You already have walked away.


It's not BCE. It's BC. It means, "Before Christ." You say you're on the verge of walking away, but let's not play games. You already walked away. Not even a Christian on the verge, as it were, uses the term, "BCE."

Secondly, I am a scientist. I struggle against a crazy world that has polluted modern science with its own mythology, which, at the heart of it, claims the very same manner for the origin of life as did ancient Greek and Roman mythologies. Climate change is another matter, and I've seen believers on both sides of that one, but there's no reason any self-respecting scientist should expect that an archaebacterium should magically find its own way to becoming a homo sapiens through random mutations and environmental abuse and a whole heck of a little time. Yes, I said "little." Five hundred million years is nothing compared to the order of magnitude of increased complexity from primordial ooze to human. It's absolutely trivial. At that rate, one should expect monkeys to evolve into humans at the rate of several times per second. Naturalistic origins can only be accepted by those who willingly blind themselves to the complexity of life. Right now, you have an enzyme with two legs, literally walking down the length of a neural axon, one step at a time, carrying a packet of neurotransmitters on its back, just for the purpose of resupplying a synapse so you can use that synapse for the very purpose of calling that microscopic robot a product of dumb luck. Now that's irony.

Don't you need a young Earth? Otherwise, there is no Garden of Eden, no first human, no Fall of Man, and that equals no original sin and no need for a savior. Instead, you have a haphazard God waiting for slime to magically design itself into the image of God, only to eat the fruit from the forbidden tree that also magically designed itself from dirt. Naturalistic origins is not only incompatible with honest science, but it's naturally incompatible with Christianity.



You're only struggling with one thing, and one thing, only. It's your relationship with Christ. You're waging a war against God, and nothing you mentioned, above, can be resolved until you reconcile with your maker. There's nothing wrong with the evidence, only the interpretation of the evidence. There's nothing wrong with the gospel that believers present, only your reaction against that gospel. You're not on the verge of walking away; you're already gone. For your sake, I hope you find your way to salvation. I don't want you to remain lost, and I can't afford to politely lie to you to make you feel better.

You covered everything I wanted to and did it better than I could. Great post!

 

[PrincetonGuy]

The Republican party is not essential to being a Christian.

If I was to move to the US then I'd struggle in good conscience to vote for the Republican party for exactly the same reasons you stated. I have a Biblical view of marriage and I am against abortion, but outside of that I really don't see anything that should make me vote Republican.

It may just be that you need to find a church with a more Christ-like congregation. That's not to say people that vote Republican aren't Christ-like, not at all, but to be actively scolded and insulted because of disagreement on political terms simply isn't acceptable.
I'd say speak to the Pastor about it, but something tells me that may not help and may only compound the problem.

As far as Genesis goes... Growing up as an IFB you will probably be aware of the position of inerrancy of scripture. That's my position too. I think there's a lot in this world that we simply can't understand and never will. The fact that it's difficult to look at the world and consider it hard or impossible to understand that it's 6-10,000 years old doesn't mean we shouldn't, I think it's a matter of faith in the inerrancy and authority of scripture.

I struggle to believe that God would allow for an error that huge in the first chapters of the first book in the most important reading a man can do. If someone perceives the integrity to be weak or wrong from the very beginning, why would they believe any of the rest?

Nearly all Old Testament scholars researching and publishing today in peer-reviewed academic biblical journals on the Scriptures teach that Genesis 1-11 is a severely redacted collection of epic tales, sagas, myths, or legends. They teach this because the evidence supporting this view is so substantial that most of them would say that it is conclusive. Indeed, Genesis 1-11 is written in a genre of literature that is not found elsewhere in the Bible, a genre of literature markedly different from the historical narrative in which most of the rest of the Hextateuch is written.

The fact that the flood did not occur proves that we have in Genesis an epic tale. The fact that the tower of Babble is a fictional story proves that we have in Genesis another epic tale. The fact that we have in Gen. 1-11 two differing creation stories proves that we have in Genesis two differing epic tales that have been edited into Genesis 1-11. What did the Book of Genesis read like before these stories were edited into it? We have no copies of Genesis that are early enough to answer that question.

The Bible describes, in detail and in many places, the earth as being a round disk covered by a dome. The Bible describes a world-wide flood through which eight humans and hundreds of thousands of land animals were kept alive by a big boat while pretending that hundreds of thousands of kinds of marine life survived without so much as a lifejacket! The Bible describes a world-wide flood through which eight humans and hundreds of thousands of land animals were kept alive by a big boat while pretending that the ecosystems necessary for the survival of the humans and animals after the flood remained in tact without so much as a single miracle. The Bible describes Nimrod and his people building a tower out of bricks held together by bitumen in the land of Shinar—a tower to be so tall that it would reach beyond the dome into heaven. God becomes so alarmed by this that He and unspecified other persons go down to the earth from heaven and make Nimrod’s people forget how to speak Hebrew but know how to speak languages that had hitherto not existed. The trouble was, of course, that each individual could now understand only one of these newly created languages. This was supposed to make building tall towers and doing grand things impossible when in fact it was not a significant hindrance. Why didn’t one of the persons that went down to the earth with God tell Him that the plan would not work and that in the future the tallest buildings would be built by men and women speaking a wide spectrum of languages but still finding ways to communicate with each other?

Personally, I find it more than a little unsettling that some people believe that God was not allowed to communicate with us using epic tales, sagas, myths and/or legends. If God was not allowed to communicate in the manner that He chose to, was He really God?


Isa. 40:22. It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,
and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;
who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to live in; (NRSV)

This verse does NOT say that the earth is a circle! It says that the LORD sits upon the circle of the earth—the dome over the flat earth that had, before the Genesis flood, separated the oceans from the mass of water above the dome:

Gen. 6:6. And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
7. So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
8. God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
9. And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so.
10. God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. (NRSV)

Gen. 7:11. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
12. The rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. (NRSV)

Moreover, only a flat earth has four corners:

Isa. 11:12. He will raise a signal for the nations,
and will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
and gather the dispersed of Judah
from the four corners of the earth. (NRSV)

Rev.7:1. After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on earth or sea or against any tree. (NRSV)

The literal four corners of the earth in the Bible gave rise to today’s popular expression.

Furthermore, Jesus was able to see all the kingdoms of the world from “a very high mountain.” This would have been impossible on a spherical earth:

Matt. 4:8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor; (NRSV)

Notice that Matthew states that the mountain was “very high,” realizing that for Jesus to see over all of the mountains in the region, the mountain that Jesus was on would have to be very high! Obviously, Matthew rejected proof from science that the earth was spherical, and was faithful to the word of God in the Old Testament which expressly teaches that the earth is flat and covered with a dome.

In Daniel 4:11, we read of a tree so tall that it could be seen from all over the flat earth,
11. The tree grew great and strong,
its top reached to heaven,
and it was visible to the ends of the whole earth.

In Job 38:22-23 we read of the storehouses of the snow, and the storehouses of hail, which God has reserved “for the time of trouble,”

22. “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23. which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
for the day of battle and war?”

In these verses, God Himself is speaking to Job in the context of Hebrew cosmology:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62297.0#.VLDGMl-NPLd

Centuries before Christ, Greek scholars taught that the earth was a sphere, but first century Christians still believed in the ancient Hebrew cosmology of the Old Testament—and the New Testament reflects that point of view in Matt. 4:8 and Revelation 7:1. Unfortunately, Christians, with reinforcement from the New Testament, continued to believe that the earth was flat until the Middle Ages when they began to realize that in matters of science, science must be allowed to prevail. Today, over 99.99% of all Christians accept the proof from science that the earth is not flat, but spherical. Moreover, the very large majority of Christians today accept the proof from science that Kangaroos did not hop from Australia to Noah’ Ark, and that penguins did not fly there from Antarctica!


The Bible is the inspired word of God, but it must be taken into account that the Bible is not a college textbook—and it was never intended to be one. It was given to us to serve a spiritual purpose, and not to contradict the fact that the earth is 4.54 billion years old. For an excellent article from a Christian perspective, please see the following:

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html

 

[thecolorsblend]

First, I don't feel that I can support the GOP culture wars.

And...

The evangelical Church's commitment to the GOP culture war really has me on the edge of walking away.

Many of the issues you mention are hardly cause for alarm. If you believe in man-made global warming, that's fine. There is no defined Biblical stance on such a thing... but to the degree there is, we are stewards and caretakers of this planet. There's a lot to be said for conservation and protection for the environment.

I'm no Democrat because I cannot and will not vote for a candidate who supports abortion, homosexual unions or the like. I'm socially conservative but economically slightly left of center. I do believe the government has a legitimate interest in helping the poor and saving them from starving to death in the streets. I also believe the government does and should have a role in protecting the public from unfair business practices. And as far as the economy is concerned, my view is it would be great if the government took more of a proactive hand in ending predatory lending practices, usury and the like.

It's okay to not be a Republican. Sure, they're a good party and they have some good ideas. But I don't agree with a lot of their economic platform anymore. Don't walk away from the faith just because you don't like the Republican Party. Don't ever confuse party affiliation with your eternal citizenship through the Lord Christ.

 

[Larry Smart]

Some of the things that civil government come up with are hard to swallow and I remind myself of Romans 13:1-7.

 

[now faith]

Amendment I



Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

If a person can comprehend this they will understand the context was against a State run Church rather than a separation from God out of our public institutions.

It has no reference to a separation of religion from government.

Considering the vast majority of America is Christian meaning belief in Christ is the reason our institutions had one Nation under God,not Budda or Harry potter.

 

[now faith]

Nearly all Old Testament scholars researching and publishing today in peer-reviewed academic biblical journals on the Scriptures teach that Genesis 1-11 is a severely redacted collection of epic tales, sagas, myths, or legends. They teach this because the evidence supporting this view is so substantial that most of them would say that it is conclusive. Indeed, Genesis 1-11 is written in a genre of literature that is not found elsewhere in the Bible, a genre of literature markedly different from the historical narrative in which most of the rest of the Hextateuch is written.

The fact that the flood did not occur proves that we have in Genesis an epic tale. The fact that the tower of Babble is a fictional story proves that we have in Genesis another epic tale. The fact that we have in Gen. 1-11 two differing creation stories proves that we have in Genesis two differing epic tales that have been edited into Genesis 1-11. What did the Book of Genesis read like before these stories were edited into it? We have no copies of Genesis that are early enough to answer that question.

The Bible describes, in detail and in many places, the earth as being a round disk covered by a dome. The Bible describes a world-wide flood through which eight humans and hundreds of thousands of land animals were kept alive by a big boat while pretending that hundreds of thousands of kinds of marine life survived without so much as a lifejacket! The Bible describes a world-wide flood through which eight humans and hundreds of thousands of land animals were kept alive by a big boat while pretending that the ecosystems necessary for the survival of the humans and animals after the flood remained in tact without so much as a single miracle. The Bible describes Nimrod and his people building a tower out of bricks held together by bitumen in the land of Shinar—a tower to be so tall that it would reach beyond the dome into heaven. God becomes so alarmed by this that He and unspecified other persons go down to the earth from heaven and make Nimrod’s people forget how to speak Hebrew but know how to speak languages that had hitherto not existed. The trouble was, of course, that each individual could now understand only one of these newly created languages. This was supposed to make building tall towers and doing grand things impossible when in fact it was not a significant hindrance. Why didn’t one of the persons that went down to the earth with God tell Him that the plan would not work and that in the future the tallest buildings would be built by men and women speaking a wide spectrum of languages but still finding ways to communicate with each other?

Personally, I find it more than a little unsettling that some people believe that God was not allowed to communicate with us using epic tales, sagas, myths and/or legends. If God was not allowed to communicate in the manner that He chose to, was He really God?


Isa. 40:22. It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,
and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;
who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to live in; (NRSV)

This verse does NOT say that the earth is a circle! It says that the LORD sits upon the circle of the earth—the dome over the flat earth that had, before the Genesis flood, separated the oceans from the mass of water above the dome:

Gen. 6:6. And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
7. So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so.
8. God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
9. And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so.
10. God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good. (NRSV)

Gen. 7:11. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
12. The rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights. (NRSV)

Moreover, only a flat earth has four corners:

Isa. 11:12. He will raise a signal for the nations,
and will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
and gather the dispersed of Judah
from the four corners of the earth. (NRSV)

Rev.7:1. After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on earth or sea or against any tree. (NRSV)

The literal four corners of the earth in the Bible gave rise to today’s popular expression.

Furthermore, Jesus was able to see all the kingdoms of the world from “a very high mountain.” This would have been impossible on a spherical earth:

Matt. 4:8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor; (NRSV)

Notice that Matthew states that the mountain was “very high,” realizing that for Jesus to see over all of the mountains in the region, the mountain that Jesus was on would have to be very high! Obviously, Matthew rejected proof from science that the earth was spherical, and was faithful to the word of God in the Old Testament which expressly teaches that the earth is flat and covered with a dome.

In Daniel 4:11, we read of a tree so tall that it could be seen from all over the flat earth,
11. The tree grew great and strong,
its top reached to heaven,
and it was visible to the ends of the whole earth.

In Job 38:22-23 we read of the storehouses of the snow, and the storehouses of hail, which God has reserved “for the time of trouble,”

22. “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow,
or have you seen the storehouses of the hail,
23. which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
for the day of battle and war?”

In these verses, God Himself is speaking to Job in the context of Hebrew cosmology:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=62297.0#.VLDGMl-NPLd

Centuries before Christ, Greek scholars taught that the earth was a sphere, but first century Christians still believed in the ancient Hebrew cosmology of the Old Testament—and the New Testament reflects that point of view in Matt. 4:8 and Revelation 7:1. Unfortunately, Christians, with reinforcement from the New Testament, continued to believe that the earth was flat until the Middle Ages when they began to realize that in matters of science, science must be allowed to prevail. Today, over 99.99% of all Christians accept the proof from science that the earth is not flat, but spherical. Moreover, the very large majority of Christians today accept the proof from science that Kangaroos did not hop from Australia to Noah’ Ark, and that penguins did not fly there from Antarctica!


The Bible is the inspired word of God, but it must be taken into account that the Bible is not a college textbook—and it was never intended to be one. It was given to us to serve a spiritual purpose, and not to contradict the fact that the earth is 4.54 billion years old. For an excellent article from a Christian perspective, please see the following:

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html

So you believe the earth is flat?

When you look at the sun moon and other planets what do you see?

Would the Law of centrifugal force hold a flat surface on a level plain,while being part of a structure that is made of round objects?

Spin a ball around on a string,then spin a uneven flat object see which one tumbles.
If you assume the earth is a frisibe then it is still a sphere.
Factor in gravitational pull from surrounding planets sun and moons.
Factor the distance to the sun,then tell me if the earth would freeze if turned backwards on a flat surface away from the sun.